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I hear a lot of chatter about how lots of stuff is too expensive points-wise for what it brings to the table. So I was wondering which models are the greatest culprits and what the appropriate points cost should be.

I know the Land Raider and the Battlewagon are hot topics for this, so in addition to these what else is grossly overcosted and by how much would you cut the price tag?

Base Carnifex = 60pts. It's ridiculous how they cost as much as a full terminator squad, are one model, don't have an Invulnerable save and have an armor save of 3+.

Hmm very interesting idea for a topic! I'll put forward a few ideas but keep in mind my experience is limited as I'm not very experienced with a lot of units that certain factions can put on the table top. I'll put forward my ideas for (mostly Codex: Orks) costing assuming that the rules for these units stay the same as they are now, though for some units I might mention some potential changes.
Take these with a bit of salt, wish-list ahoy!

The basic Land Raider could probably sit around 170.
Battlewagons should be 90 points, or 100 at most.
Ork Boyz would be nice at 5 points per model, and/or able to swap sluggas for shootas for free or purchase a shoota in addition to slugga & choppa for 1 point.
'Eavy armour to cost 3 points for any unit that can take it.
Nobz to cost 14 points, warbike upgrade to cost 15 points.
Mega Nobz feel better at 35 points, perhaps with a boost to Mega Armour (5++?)
Weirdboyz can't take any upgrades other than ML2 and have no save to speak of so 30/35 points could work
Big Meks are just Nobz with Ld 8 and expensive upgrade choices so 25 points might be a nice fit.
Mad Dok Grotsnik is decent but overcosted, 110 points.
Kaptin Badrukk may as well be modelled as a huge plasma gun in the process of exploding itself, 75 points.
If Tankbustas are 13 points then Burna Boyz, Kommandos and Stormboyz should probably be 12, 9 and 8 points respectively.
Deffkoptas would be nice at 25 points with an option to purchase another big shoota/rokkit/KMB for 5 points.
The Dakkajet, Burna-bomma and Blitza-bomma would be more reasonable at 80, 90 and 100 points respectively. All flyers seem overcosted and appear to pay a premium for Hard To Hit, which is outweighed completely by sometimes not turning up til the game is almost over and arriving Turn 2 at best.
Deff Dread reduced to 60 points with 2 attacks added to the profile to fit with the SM Dreadnought improvement.
Killa Kanz lose Cowardly Grots rule and lowered to 30 points per model.
G/Morkanaut should either be SHW at current point cost or become SHW and gain twin-linked on all ranged weapons as well as becoming Assault vehicles for a 40 point increase. Alternatively leave it non-SHW and reduce each by 100 points.
Flash Gitz should lose the bosspoles and replace them with 'eavy armour then become 20 points per model.
Ghazghkull Thraka to either get a load of boosts (master-crafted PK, twin-linked big shoota, old Adamantium Skull rule, 4/5++ at all times, +1 S, +1 T, Ld 10, Fearless, Fear) and stay the same cost or keep the current rules and be 180 points.

In my own version of Codex: Orks I've been cooking up just for fun, I kept the Battlewagon's cost at 110 pts but made it so it comes stock with Extra Armor, Reinforced Ram, and a Kannon. Because, come on! Are we expected to believe Orks would build any vehicle (their main battle tank no less) without a gun on it? Besides, I can't think of any situation where you wouldn't take those things on your Battlewagon.

Anyway, good points all. Thank you for including your reasoning as well!

For the imperial guard:

With the revised rules I made for them, I'd reduce the price of regular Ogyrns to 20pts, Bulgyrns with power mauls and brute shields to 35pts, and Slab Sheid Bulgyrns to 50pts each. With the Bone Heads being an extra 10pts each. If you're wondering why, it's because the slab shield ones increase their toughness in addition to the other effects when standing together with my rules. That puts them up into monstrous creature territory with regards to how much damage the unit can take.

I'd also reduce the price of Valkyries to 65pts. That's very cheap I know, but it's because the Valkyrie is a very basic flier which should primarily be a transporter. The IGs version of a drop pod. Sort of. This would require it's weapons to be tweaked though.

And I think that the regular and Demolisher versions of the russes are about 20pts too expensive. There's some more stuff about infantry platoons and tauroxes but I've not finalised it enough to post here.

BA:
-captains down to 60 pre-gear.
-chaplains down to 80 pre-gear
-dreads down to 80 pre-gear
-furiosos down to 100 pre-gear
-furioso Libby down to 120 pre-gear
-Preds, vindis down by 25 points each.
-Tycho is just a terrible captain loadout, and won't be taken unless he's an absolute steal. Better to just fix him than adjust points.
-Sanguinor is barely worth 120.
-Mephy is about right, maybe cut 10 points or so, just needs better synergistic squad choices to go with in the codex. His t5 gets wasted in a squad of marines, and he's not on a bike to join other t5 models.
-Corbulo down to 90.
-Dante down to 180
-Seth is actually okay where he is.
-Astorath down to 140
-Lemartes down to 110
-Karlaen down to 140
-Raphen's DC are loaded out inefficiently like Tycho.
-land raiders down to 180
-stormravens down to 160
Wargear
-all melee weapons drop by 5 points, all special pistols drop by 5 points, and all heavy weapons (they don't have grav cannons) drop by 5 points. This includes relics that mimic them.
-jump packs down to 10 points for characters to account for the giant quality difference between them and bikes.
-fix profiles for dreads, scouts, termies, and vanguard.
-see any of 10000 threads for fixing termies
-see any of 10000 threads for fixing base marines not abusing a formation.
-sanguinary guard to 30 per man.

That's pretty much it. All that weight cutting could actually let them float up to middle tier-ish, maybe even a little higher.

For DE

Drazhar- 170
Razorwing Jetfighter- 110
Voidraven Bomber- 100
Talos- 100
Cronos- 80
Ravager- 90

ixi_DUCK_ixi wrote:
Base Carnifex = 60pts. It's ridiculous how they cost as much as a full terminator squad, are one model, don't have an Invulnerable save and have an armor save of 3+.

Way too cheap for an MC. T6 W4 is worth more than you realize. Can't be doubled out, and functionally immune to small arms with that 3+.

Odd how so many things are so bloated with points! It seems like it would be a no-brainer for GW to reduce points cost across the board so we could fit more models into our armies (and thus they sell more models!).

For Tau: (Only the things needing to be cheaper)

Stealth Suits: 27ppm
Vespids: 13ppm (I think there are better ways to fix this, but existing Vespids might at least see the table at 13ppm)
XV9 Hazard suits: 65ppm

For Sisters:

Battle Sister Squads: 10ppm
Dominions: 11ppm
Retributors: 11ppm
Seraphim: 13ppm
Command Squad: 12ppm
Celestians: 12ppm --OR-- 14ppm, replace boltguns with storm bolters
Penitent Engines: 70ppm (They still get a good pile of S10 AP2 at initiative)
Sisters Repentia: 12ppm (Mistress of Repentance 25ppm)
Canoness: 50 points base. She's good, but not that good. A Canoness with a Rosarius (to match the Captain's Iron Halo) is 80pts compared to a Captain at 90; if we count Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF as equivalent to Acts of Faith and Stubborn, then for 10 points the Captain gets WS6, I5, S4, T4, which are all rather significant. He also gets better wargear - notably, bikes and jump packs.

Power weapons: 10ppm
Combi-weapons: 5ppm
Plasma/Inferno pistol: 5ppm (Add hand flamers as an option, 5ppm)

For Inquisition:

Power armor for Acolytes: 6ppm. Acolytes are 4ppm, with power armor they'd still cost the same as a point-reduced Sister, for worse BS and Ld. As it stands, a power-armored Acolyte costs as much as a Tactical Marine, and we all know who's better.
Power weapons: 10ppm
Pistols: 5ppm
Land Raiders: 180 points base (Crusaders/Redeemers reduced by 70 points base)
Jokaero: 30ppm

 Grimgrub Dregdakka wrote:
Odd how so many things are so bloated with points! It seems like it would be a no-brainer for GW to reduce points cost across the board so we could fit more models into our armies (and thus they sell more models!).

Yeah, especially since they don't worry too much about balance. The only thing stopping me from taking an armoured brigade is the fact that I could never afford it in the game.

Martel732 wrote:

ixi_DUCK_ixi wrote:
Base Carnifex = 60pts. It's ridiculous how they cost as much as a full terminator squad, are one model, don't have an Invulnerable save and have an armor save of 3+.

Way too cheap for an MC. T6 W4 is worth more than you realize. Can't be doubled out, and functionally immune to small arms with that 3+.

You keep telling me that as I pull him off the table because of 15pts worth of special weapons in a Tactical Squad. The Carnifex is dead as soon as anything but a Guardsman Conscript looks at it. 75pts max, same as a basic Predator tank since they are the equivalent.

Trygon Prime needs to be somewhere in the 170 range. They're still Synapse after all.
Exocrine can come down to 120pts. 24" range on a 6" movement platform and you call it 170? Ridiculous.
Warrior Prime should drop quite a bit too. It's meant to be the 'entry' HQ unit and SEVERELY limits what you can bring in a 500pt game for no benefit. Easier to just take a Flyrant and minimum of everything else.
Genestealers should be 12ppm before upgrades, with a 3pt Extended Carapace upgrade to give them that 4+ Armor they desperately need. So base is cheaper, upgraded is a touch more expensive.
I always feel like Termagants should be cheaper, but I can never justify it outside of 'I want a full friggin swarm of the buggers to reflect the fluff' so as a tabletop game, I can't see them dropping in price unless they take a nerf.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

ixi_DUCK_ixi wrote:
Base Carnifex = 60pts. It's ridiculous how they cost as much as a full terminator squad, are one model, don't have an Invulnerable save and have an armor save of 3+.

Way too cheap for an MC. T6 W4 is worth more than you realize. Can't be doubled out, and functionally immune to small arms with that 3+.

You keep telling me that as I pull him off the table because of 15pts worth of special weapons in a Tactical Squad. The Carnifex is dead as soon as anything but a Guardsman Conscript looks at it. 75pts max, same as a basic Predator tank since they are the equivalent.

Trygon Prime needs to be somewhere in the 170 range. They're still Synapse after all.
Exocrine can come down to 120pts. 24" range on a 6" movement platform and you call it 170? Ridiculous.
Warrior Prime should drop quite a bit too. It's meant to be the 'entry' HQ unit and SEVERELY limits what you can bring in a 500pt game for no benefit. Easier to just take a Flyrant and minimum of everything else.
Genestealers should be 12ppm before upgrades, with a 3pt Extended Carapace upgrade to give them that 4+ Armor they desperately need. So base is cheaper, upgraded is a touch more expensive.
I always feel like Termagants should be cheaper, but I can never justify it outside of 'I want a full friggin swarm of the buggers to reflect the fluff' so as a tabletop game, I can't see them dropping in price unless they take a nerf.

A single grav gun on a non-relentless unit isn't doing much to a carnifex. They'd need a grav cannon, and to be stationary. The Carnifex can take a lot more damage than a predator tank. Remember that in practice, a predator is AV 11 because the side arc is so huge.

Well, I'll have a go myself at this

For Skitarii/AdMech:
- Infiltrators down to 28ppm
- Ruststalkers down to 25ppm
- Ballistarii start at 45 like dragoons, lascannon is 10 point upgrade.

- Electropriests say, 15? for either.

Martel732 wrote:

A single grav gun on a non-relentless unit isn't doing much to a carnifex. They'd need a grav cannon, and to be stationary. The Carnifex can take a lot more damage than a predator tank. Remember that in practice, a predator is AV 11 because the side arc is so huge.

Not even talking about Grav Guns, which do even more damage don't get me wrong. I'm talking about even measly Plasma Guns. Most embarrassing was when my Carnifex was killed by a CombiPlasma in Overwatch. Two shots, two Wounds on my poor wounded bug and down it goes, but I'm not going to pretend that that is average performance. The Carnifex simply can not take damage in more normal situations though. It's a speedbump, nothing more. Points should reflect that. Game has changed since 3rd Edition.

Way too many to list even for the "biggest offenders" list, which is part of the reason the game is so unbalanced.

That's a meaningless anecdote. On average, that overwatch does nothing. MCs soak up way more firepower than their points indicate. MCs and gmcs need to cost more, not less.

Yep, you knew it was coming, chaos! I think a normal marine is reasonable at 12 points, because of the lacking chapter tactics and atsknf. Terminators should be 30 because of the lacking power fist base and the reasons above. Pretty much take a point off of all the marine options for, again, reasons already stated. Helbrute taken down 20 points and ability to take marks. Forgefiends and maulers for 20 points less for the low skills, I think that's it, feel free to add on to it if you think of other things.

Helbrutes can't take marks? That seems like a bit of an oversight doesn't it? Shouldn't anything Chaos be able to take a...Chaos mark?

Only non-daemons and non-vehicles.

Martel732 wrote:
That's a meaningless anecdote. On average, that overwatch does nothing. MCs soak up way more firepower than their points indicate. MCs and gmcs need to cost more, not less.

And once again you're so incredibly salty about your own armys weaknesses that you can't see the problems other equally low tier armies suffer from. Carnifexes are only dangerous to vehicles, and thats if it can get close enough to charge them. This sounds more like you don't even know how to make much use of your own army, 10 Sterngaurd with Hellfire Rounds in a Drop Pod would mean a dead Carnifex, or Hive Tyrant if it isn't flying, on Turn 1 long before it's had a chance to do anything.

 Imateria wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's a meaningless anecdote. On average, that overwatch does nothing. MCs soak up way more firepower than their points indicate. MCs and gmcs need to cost more, not less.

And once again you're so incredibly salty about your own armys weaknesses that you can't see the problems other equally low tier armies suffer from. Carnifexes are only dangerous to vehicles, and thats if it can get close enough to charge them. This sounds more like you don't even know how to make much use of your own army, 10 Sterngaurd with Hellfire Rounds in a Drop Pod would mean a dead Carnifex, or Hive Tyrant if it isn't flying, on Turn 1 long before it's had a chance to do anything.

10 sternguard in a drop pod are usually on a suicide mission, and BA can't afford to throw away units. I don't get to list tailor, so I could be dropping them to their deaths against interceptor Tau. Without list tailoring, the utility of drop pods goes way down. I could also be facing WKs, which make my hellfire rounds pointless. So maybe YOU don't understand how BA work.

Carnifexes are dangerous to anything that bothers to pay for an armor save as well. Which it ignores.

" equally low tier"

Nids are light years ahead of BA thanks to the magical MC rules.

Of course Nids get hosed by lists that get to bring real firepower to the table. They don't have the Riptide or WK. But trying to shoot them down with regular imperial heavy weapons generally doesn't work because generic imperial heavy weapons suck out loud or have crappy platforms or both.

@Martel732 + Imateria
Keep it civil. If you want to fight, go to another thread. This one here is for good natured discussion. Disagreement is fine, slap-fighting like ninnies is not!

I know you both dislike parts of your army's current layout. This topic is here to try and help everyone. Meet in the middle somewhere.

The above BA costs are a pretty good, I'd say. Still a losing codex, I think, but a bit better.

I'm not sure what to do with the MCs without rewriting the whole game.

I genuinely feel the Tesseract Vault should only cost 400 - 450 points. It's not THAT over the top powerful for the points. One good round of melta/shred rolls and it can go bye bye fast. If you get to shoot with it, yes it will wreck things. But nowhere near as bad as the FW Necron Pylons.