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Emperor's Children War band
1 Chaos Lord
0 – 2 Chaos Sorcerer
1 – 3 Chosen, Terminators, Possessed
2 – 6 Chaos Space Marines
1 – 3 Raptors, Warp Talons, Chaos Bikes
1 – 3 Noise Marines, Havocs, Hellbrute

Chosen of the Dark Prince: If a unit numbers 6, 12, or 18 at the beginning of the game it may take a Icon of Excess or Vengeance at no additional cost.
This silence offends Slaanesh: All Characters with a Mark of Slaanesh in this formation may take a Doom Siren for 15pts.

(Designers Notes: All models must have a mark of Slaanesh at no additional cost, Lucius the Eternal may be taken instead the Chaos Lord)

Thousand Sons War band
1 Chaos Lord, or Chaos Sorcerer
0 – 2 Chaos Sorcerer
1 – 3 Chosen, Terminators, Possessed
2 – 6 Chaos Space Marines, Thousand Sons
1 – 3 Raptors, Warp Talons, Chaos Bikes
1 – 3 Havocs, Hellbrute

Chosen of the changer of ways: If a unit numbers 9 or 18 at the beginning of the game it may take a Icon of Flame or Vengeance at no additional cost.
Sorcerers knowledge: All characters in this formation receive +1 to there mastery level to a maximum of mastery 4 at no additional cost, Any character may be upgraded to mastery level 1 psyker for 15pts.

(Designers Notes: All models must have a mark of Tzeentch at no additional cost, Ahriman may be taken instead of a Chaos Lord)

Deathguard Warband
1 Chaos Lord
0 – 2 Chaos Sorcerer
1 – 3 Chosen, Terminators, Possessed, Plague Marines
2 – 6 Chaos Space Marines
1 – 3 Raptors, Warp Talons, Chaos Bikes
1 – 3 Havocs, Hellbrute

Chosen of grandfather Nurgle: If a unit numbers 7 or 14 at the beginning of the game it may take a Icon of Despair or Vengeance at no additional cost.
Cloud of flies: All units in this formation with a Icon of Despair, gain stealth and all characters may take blight grenades at no additional cost.

(Designers Notes: All models must have a mark of Nurgle at 1pt/per model, Typhus may be taken instead of a Chaos Lord)

I like the special rules on these. They seem pretty reasonable. A couple random thoughts:

* I'm guessing you're basing the minimum requirements off of the Traitor's Hate decurion, but I"m not sure those are a good fit here. The Traitor's Hate decurion represents a generic, Black Legion-esque setup. It has you take a well-rounded set of options that sort of mirror a demi company. Which is fine. But Thousand Sons and Deathguard aren't exactly known for their raptor support. It just feels a bit odd that Thousand Sons would have to take non-rubricae and jump packers /bikers in order to play a list meant to represent their fluff.

* The god number thing is fluffy, but also a bit punishing. Specifically for Tzeentch. If you want to take enough chaos marines to benefit from the Chosen of the Changer of Ways rule and also get a second special weapon, you have to take 18 guys while the Slaaneshi equivalent would get the much more useful icon of excess and two special weapons at 12 bodies instead. I'd also point out that taking 9 Thousand Sons isn't really optimal, but I suppose that number works out reasonably well if you're looking to pepper the enemy with inferno bolts. If you want to get the most out of your sorcerers, you probably go MSU instead, but then you may as well not have the Chosen of the Changer of Ways rule. Which isn't necessarily a problem. It makes you choose between benefitting from a small squad loadout or a large squad loudout. It just feels a bit odd when Slaanesh can take MSU and still get freebies.

*Just to clarify, the restrictions on chaos-marked psykers mean that anyone with Sorcerers Knowledge would have to roll on Tzeentch's table right? So a biker champion, for instnace, would be rolling off the Tzeentch table?

*Sorcerer's Knowledge dramatically shifts the number of psychic dice you have, but I don't think it's necessarily problematic with GK and tzeentch daemons running around.

*These detachments actually lower the number of Thousand Sons, Plague Marines, and Noise Marines I can field because the maximum number of units is 3. In a CAD, I could take 6 with the right HQ. Maybe move each of these "cult troops" to its own requirement slot? So 1-3 Noise Marines and 0-3 Havocs/Hell Brutes, for instance.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I like the special rules on these. They seem pretty reasonable. A couple random thoughts:

* I'm guessing you're basing the minimum requirements off of the Traitor's Hate decurion, but I"m not sure those are a good fit here. The Traitor's Hate decurion represents a generic, Black Legion-esque setup. It has you take a well-rounded set of options that sort of mirror a demi company. Which is fine. But Thousand Sons and Deathguard aren't exactly known for their raptor support. It just feels a bit odd that Thousand Sons would have to take non-rubricae and jump packers /bikers in order to play a list meant to represent their fluff.

* The god number thing is fluffy, but also a bit punishing. Specifically for Tzeentch. If you want to take enough chaos marines to benefit from the Chosen of the Changer of Ways rule and also get a second special weapon, you have to take 18 guys while the Slaaneshi equivalent would get the much more useful icon of excess and two special weapons at 12 bodies instead. I'd also point out that taking 9 Thousand Sons isn't really optimal, but I suppose that number works out reasonably well if you're looking to pepper the enemy with inferno bolts. If you want to get the most out of your sorcerers, you probably go MSU instead, but then you may as well not have the Chosen of the Changer of Ways rule. Which isn't necessarily a problem. It makes you choose between benefitting from a small squad loadout or a large squad loudout. It just feels a bit odd when Slaanesh can take MSU and still get freebies.

*Just to clarify, the restrictions on chaos-marked psykers mean that anyone with Sorcerers Knowledge would have to roll on Tzeentch's table right? So a biker champion, for instnace, would be rolling off the Tzeentch table?

*Sorcerer's Knowledge dramatically shifts the number of psychic dice you have, but I don't think it's necessarily problematic with GK and tzeentch daemons running around.

*These detachments actually lower the number of Thousand Sons, Plague Marines, and Noise Marines I can field because the maximum number of units is 3. In a CAD, I could take 6 with the right HQ. Maybe move each of these "cult troops" to its own requirement slot? So 1-3 Noise Marines and 0-3 Havocs/Hell Brutes, for instance.

I tried to make it so Slaanesh had a worse secondary rule to compensate for it's free icon being far easier to fulfill while having the best icon, Doom Sirens are good don't get me wrong but is it better than free stealth on entire army or free +1 mastery level on all psykers ? (Slaanesh just happens to have by far the best sacred number :/)

The Sorcerer's knowledge the way I saw it working as you pay to become mastery 1, but then you also get the passive buff and become mastery 2, it seems broken but considering 1 of those powers has to come from Tzeentch I think it is fair.

Noise Marines where placed in the fake heavy support slot, because back in the old days of 3rd Noise Marines where heavy support, I placed plagues in fake elites so that CSM don't have to compete with them and I place thousand sons in fake troops because they are generally the bulk of a thousand sons army in fluff, I could change it to how you suggest though, and I do agree Raptors aren't really a death guard or thousand sons thing.

I'd recommend backing off on the extra Mastery levels in the Tzeentch formation some. I know Tzeentch is the god of magic but the only ML4 models in the game right now are Eldrad, Ahriman, and Fateweaver, coming along and adding a formation that can up and get three generic ML4 characters is pretty over the top. Similarly I don't think ML2 squad leaders across the whole detachment are appropriate when Grey Knights aren't ML2 unless they're Purifiers and Eldar aren't ML2 unless they're Independent Characters.

(I know making them take a Tzeentch power is a downside, but Grey Knights' fixed powers aren't any better (I've never had cause to use Banishment in my life), and fixing the Tzeentch powers would be a cleaner fix that doesn't require reevaluating psykers across the broader game)

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd recommend backing off on the extra Mastery levels in the Tzeentch formation some. I know Tzeentch is the god of magic but the only ML4 models in the game right now are Eldrad, Ahriman, and Fateweaver, coming along and adding a formation that can up and get three generic ML4 characters is pretty over the top. Similarly I don't think ML2 squad leaders across the whole detachment are appropriate when Grey Knights aren't ML2 unless they're Purifiers and Eldar aren't ML2 unless they're Independent Characters.

(I know making them take a Tzeentch power is a downside, but Grey Knights' fixed powers aren't any better (I've never had cause to use Banishment in my life), and fixing the Tzeentch powers would be a cleaner fix that doesn't require reevaluating psykers across the broader game)

Chaos space marines can already get generic mastery 4 psykers, by taking Last Memory of the Yuranthos on a sorcerer or daemon prince, I can agree with the mastery 2 squad leader thing being a bit ridicules, daemons of Tzeencth can get mastery 3 troops, though you can lower the mastery level by killing them.

That rule also opens up something allot of thousand sons players really want, a chaos Sorcerer Lord.

Edit: Also can't Eldar get mastery 2 warlock squad leaders in guardian squads ?

 Rydria wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd recommend backing off on the extra Mastery levels in the Tzeentch formation some. I know Tzeentch is the god of magic but the only ML4 models in the game right now are Eldrad, Ahriman, and Fateweaver, coming along and adding a formation that can up and get three generic ML4 characters is pretty over the top. Similarly I don't think ML2 squad leaders across the whole detachment are appropriate when Grey Knights aren't ML2 unless they're Purifiers and Eldar aren't ML2 unless they're Independent Characters.

(I know making them take a Tzeentch power is a downside, but Grey Knights' fixed powers aren't any better (I've never had cause to use Banishment in my life), and fixing the Tzeentch powers would be a cleaner fix that doesn't require reevaluating psykers across the broader game)

Chaos space marines can already get generic mastery 4 psykers, by taking Last Memory of the Yuranthos on a sorcerer or daemon prince, I can agree with the mastery 2 squad leader thing being a bit ridicules, daemons of Tzeencth can get mastery 3 troops, though you can lower the mastery level by killing them.

That rule also opens up something allot of thousand sons players really want, a chaos Sorcerer Lord.

Edit: Also can't Eldar get mastery 2 warlock squad leaders in guardian squads ?

Nope. Warlocks are ML1, Spiritseers (HQ Independent Characters) are ML2. The only models I've found so far that are ML2+ and not HQ choices are Shadowseers (and the way the Harlequin Codex works they're almost an HQ choice anyway), Purifiers, and Pink Horrors.

If you're going to allow generic Tzeentch sergeants to be ML2 and their characters to be ML4 you'd have to nudge most every psyker in the game up a level to compensate.

One generic ML4 psyker who gets that way with a relic is one thing (GK can theoretically make a Librarian roll five powers, though he still only generates three Warp Charge), but two generic ML4 psykers and an ML5 generic psyker with the Last Memory is another.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd recommend backing off on the extra Mastery levels in the Tzeentch formation some. I know Tzeentch is the god of magic but the only ML4 models in the game right now are Eldrad, Ahriman, and Fateweaver, coming along and adding a formation that can up and get three generic ML4 characters is pretty over the top. Similarly I don't think ML2 squad leaders across the whole detachment are appropriate when Grey Knights aren't ML2 unless they're Purifiers and Eldar aren't ML2 unless they're Independent Characters.

(I know making them take a Tzeentch power is a downside, but Grey Knights' fixed powers aren't any better (I've never had cause to use Banishment in my life), and fixing the Tzeentch powers would be a cleaner fix that doesn't require reevaluating psykers across the broader game)

Chaos space marines can already get generic mastery 4 psykers, by taking Last Memory of the Yuranthos on a sorcerer or daemon prince, I can agree with the mastery 2 squad leader thing being a bit ridicules, daemons of Tzeencth can get mastery 3 troops, though you can lower the mastery level by killing them.

That rule also opens up something allot of thousand sons players really want, a chaos Sorcerer Lord.

Edit: Also can't Eldar get mastery 2 warlock squad leaders in guardian squads ?

Nope. Warlocks are ML1, Spiritseers (HQ Independent Characters) are ML2. The only models I've found so far that are ML2+ and not HQ choices are Shadowseers (and the way the Harlequin Codex works they're almost an HQ choice anyway), Purifiers, and Pink Horrors.

If you're going to allow generic Tzeentch sergeants to be ML2 and their characters to be ML4 you'd have to make a lot more GK, Warlocks,

One generic ML4 psyker who gets that way with a relic is one thing (GK can theoretically make a Librarian roll five powers, though he still only generates three Warp Charge), but two generic ML4 psykers and an ML5 generic psyker with the Last Memory is another.

You can't get to mastery level 5, the rule states that you can get to a maximum of level 4

 Rydria wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
(Truncated for brevity)

You can't get to mastery level 5, the rule states that you can get to a maximum of level 4

Getting back to the actual point sticking an extra Mastery level in across the board would require sticking an extra Mastery level on pretty much everyone else to compensate.

Update on this: I went back and looked at the CSM 3.5 Codex out of curiosity, and back then there was no distinction between 'Cult units' and 'units with the Mark of [X]' the way there is these days. The Marks were restricted to certain units (anyone could have the Mark of Chaos Undivided, but Raptors couldn't have any other Mark, Khorne couldn't get Havocs, Nurgle couldn't get Bikes, and Tzeentch couldn't get either), and Obliterators couldn't have Marks in the first place.

Copying over the rules wholesale would be pretty unuseable since they restricted upgrade weapons heavily (Khorne couldn't have infantry ranged weapon upgrades other than plasma pistols, Nurgle couldn't have heavy weapons, and Tzeentch couldn't have any guns other than bolters unless they were Terminator sergeants), but asking the question about other Cult units could lead interesting places.

Going through the current CSM book Raptors aren't a Night Lords-specific thing anymore so taking away their Marks wouldn't make any sense, but I will remain skeptical about Obliterators and Mutilators (the Dark Mechanicum never seemed interested in tying themselves to any god in particular to me). I will start speculating about god-specific supplements/detachments/expanded options in a bit.

Good initiative, but no reason to directly copy the BL warbands rules.

Cult units/bands are dedicated to their god/primarch/tactics and therefore should have different TO&E both from BL/unmarkedCSM and other cult bands.

Thousand Sons should have sorcerers for both HQ and Heavy, Rubics as elite, CSM as Troops and some Daemonforged alternatives for Fast Attack and Heavy. Give Sorcerers the possibility to form a "Magic Circle" which gives them extra abilities (maybe for extra shooty powers in Heavy role?). No Bikes, but maybe giving Raptors disks instead of jetpacks?

Death Guard should be infantery-based without heavy weapons (but Havocs may take 4 melta/plasma/flamers) but with Mutilators and Obilerators as FA and Elites. No Bikes/Raptors - deepstriking Terminators have to fill that role. Add something to make Mutilators useful - maybe that they can move as beasts for one turn? Or that 3 Mutilators and one Sorcerer can teleport?

(I have no useful suggestions for EC)

Cult warbands are few and elite. Give them some cheap Renegade&Heritic units that also provide (some) vehicle and artillery support, and some rules how cult marines boost the RHs stats/rules (stubborn, higher BS etc). A mechanic for introducing non-cult CSM is also needed - would a DG warlord hire CSM Bikers as mercenaries?

Divine numbers give flavour and is already used in the Daemon codex. I suggest two levels of divine numbers, just as Heralds may choose between three levels of Foci. The first level gives some fairly small bonus for being 6-9 strong. The second level should be more powerful for units that are 12, 14 or 18 strong (and the TS bonus should be stronger due to the higher cost). And by upgrading the Aspring Champion the divine numbers can be elevated even further. 18 Thousand Sons should have both their 5++ and Infernal Bolts strengthen by mutual support to (for example) 4++ that reduces attack S with 2, and S 5 AP 3 H3 bolters.

superkuf wrote:
...maybe giving Raptors disks instead of jetpacks?...

Screamer-surfing and Juggernaut-mounted units should happen, definitely. Not sure if Steeds of Slaanesh would take a Chaos Marine, they might need to be bigger. Rotfly-mounted Chaos Marines might work but I haven't had a good look at the models up close.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

superkuf wrote:
...maybe giving Raptors disks instead of jetpacks?...

Screamer-surfing and Juggernaut-mounted units should happen, definitely. Not sure if Steeds of Slaanesh would take a Chaos Marine, they might need to be bigger. Rotfly-mounted Chaos Marines might work but I haven't had a good look at the models up close.

Steeds and Disks are both available for CSM HQ units, so that shouldn't be a problem. But Juggernauts is according to fluff and rules something only Champions of Chaos may ride, so no FA/Elites on Juggs.

I just got an absurd idea: DG cavalry riding on Spawns.