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For example....

I play a successor chapter to Imperial Fists.

Can their be a successor chapter to a second founding chapter such as the Black Templars or crimson fists?

Furthermore, are 5th, 6th, 7th etc... founding chapters still directly formed from the original chapter's gene seed or are they formed from the previous founding chapter? For example a 5th founding chapter uses a 4th founding chapter's gene seed or does that 5th founding chapter still use the original chapter's gene seed when it's created and the 5th founding title is a reflection of the time/date that the new chapter was formed?

Yes, yes, yes, and no.

Yes, a successor can be made of a successor chapter. Though the Black Templars are an exception and are highly unlikely to have successors of their own. However, the Executioners, the Astral Claws, and the Eagle Warriors are all later founding chapters that have had successors of their own. Usually this is done as a way of honoring the chapter.

More commonly, a new founding will use geneseed tithe from a first founding chapter and start from fresh, with a cadre of veteran marines from a chapter of the same lineage forming the initial command element.

Lastly, no, foundings are not built from the previous founding. It is possible that a 4th founding chapter may have a 5th founding successor, but the likelihood is very VERY small. Founding numbers are just the time when they occurred.

My understanding is that the Gene seed for each chapter is kept on terra and any of those gene seeds can be used to create new founding's. the simple fact is that no one chapter can produce enough gene seed to create a whole new chapter. The exception to this was the second founding when new marines weren't created, but legions simply broken down. It is likely that a first founding chapter would be chosen for a new founding, or possibly all of them, and gene seed would be used from them and their successor chapters to create the new chapter.

An alternative is that they wait until they have enough gene seed to create a new chapter from a single source, and then create lots of chapters from these various single sources - effectively doubling the number of chapters in existence (less those that had been destroyed),

My understanding is that the founding number reflects the time and date, and not who was the donors - otherwise you couldn't have had a founding after the 13th (cursed) founding

icn1982 wrote:
the simple fact is that no one chapter can produce enough gene seed to create a whole new chapter. The exception to this was the second founding when new marines weren't created, but legions simply broken down. It is likely that a first founding chapter would be chosen for a new founding, or possibly all of them, and gene seed would be used from them and their successor chapters to create the new chapter.

An alternative is that they wait until they have enough gene seed to create a new chapter from a single source, and then create lots of chapters from these various single sources - effectively doubling the number of chapters in existence (less those that had been destroyed),

My understanding is that the founding number reflects the time and date, and not who was the donors - otherwise you couldn't have had a founding after the 13th (cursed) founding

I don't see how the chapters themselves not having the geneseed stored is relevant. They're not the ones making a new chapter. The AdMech uses a rapid implantation process to cultivate the implants from the geneseed tithe. It still takes time but the chapter's supply isn't a factor.

Also 13th founding was the Dark Founding. It was the 21st that's called the Cursed Founding.

usmcmidn wrote:
For example....

I play a successor chapter to Imperial Fists.

Can their be a successor chapter to a second founding chapter such as the Black Templars or crimson fists?

Furthermore, are 5th, 6th, 7th etc... founding chapters still directly formed from the original chapter's gene seed or are they formed from the previous founding chapter? For example a 5th founding chapter uses a 4th founding chapter's gene seed or does that 5th founding chapter still use the original chapter's gene seed when it's created and the 5th founding title is a reflection of the time/date that the new chapter was formed?

So it is 'possible' but unlikely.

The 2nd founding was created in a different way from all the other foundings, in the 2nd founding, the Legions, often the size of 10-100 chapters were broken up into chapters with a marine who use to be an Ultramarine becoming a Doom Eagle. In that case a Ultramarine named Tulian Aquila went off with 999 other Ultramarines and they repainted their armor.

3rd and later founding were made the same was as the 1st founding. The admech created them from geneseed stocks without any of the marines from the previous chapter being involved.


Now chapters a limited to 1000 marines but it isnt a hard stop. During a long campaign far from the galactic center a chapter might expand a bit beyond 1000 anticipating losses. If they didnt incur those loses, they might end up with over 1000 full marines. The IoM would frown upon that so there would be 2 solutions to avoid shame. Immidiately undertaking a rather suicidal crusade or possibly splitting the chapter into 2 chapters, with preference on the first.

As I understand it, each chapters gene seed tithe is stored on either holy terra or Mars. Once enough gene seed is stored from that chapter it is used to create a new chapter. The stored gene seed is also used to replenish a chapter if it suffers a catastrophic loss. That's just how I remember it being explained to me anyway.

So all new chapters no matter what founding (2nd, 3rd, 4th etc...) are all directly created from the original chapter's gene seed?

usmcmidn wrote:
So all new chapters no matter what founding (2nd, 3rd, 4th etc...) are all directly created from the original chapter's gene seed?

Yes, with the occasional exception made as a way of honoring a later founding chapter.

I'm pretty sure all chapters have to give gene-seed to the Adeptus Mechanicus/High Lords, so they could order a chapter formed due to politics beyond simple honourings.

usmcmidn wrote:
So all new chapters no matter what founding (2nd, 3rd, 4th etc...) are all directly created from the original chapter's gene seed?

No. Any new chapter is created from a single marine's worth of gene seed. It is not just "the original chapter," e.g. it is not just generically Ultramarines' gene seed.


I think the posts that say it is the first founding only do not have good information.


It is one out of the fifty individual progenoid contents that the mechanicus get in a given tithe shipment in a given year from a given chapter. They take that single set and reproduce it themselves in their own labs until they have enough for a whole chapter. That's what it says in the source article on creating space marines.

There is no reason or would be from only one chapter. Especially true because they would also make a distinction between using Ultramarine gene seed from Ultramarine progenoid #289p that has been frozen since the 34th millennium and Ultramarine progenoid 567n-c that came in last week. Those would be just as different as like distinguishing between Templars vs Executioners vs Imperial Fists.

Actually the is no reason they couldn't use a preomnor zygote from one set and a mucranoid from a different marine in a different tithe shipment. But whatever.

usmcmidn wrote:
So all new chapters no matter what founding (2nd, 3rd, 4th etc...) are all directly created from the original chapter's gene seed?

As others have been saying, no. In my post, when I talked about each chapters gene seed tithe, I meant every single chapter (possibly with a few exceptions) as they all have to provide a tithe. Whichever chapter that provided the tithe used to create the new chapter, that is the 'parent' chapter to the new chapter.

icn1982 wrote:
the simple fact is that no one chapter can produce enough gene seed to create a whole new chapter.

Sure they can. Each recruit that completes the implantation process alive carries two progenoid glands, and so gives the Chapter genetic material for creating two new marines. The first gland is mature and removed after five years, the second matures in ten years and is usually harvested only when the marine dies (for some stupid reason). A Chapter that decides to, say, not risk itself in combat too often can build up a stockpile pretty fast as things move in the IoM. What they'll have problems with is arming and outfitting all the new bodies they make.

But that's heresy ofc, since new Chapters are supposed to be founded only when the High Lords of Terra say so (or the Dark Angels Grand Master asks for one).

usmcmidn wrote:
So all new chapters no matter what founding (2nd, 3rd, 4th etc...) are all directly created from the original chapter's gene seed?

yes, but originally there were no Chapters, there were legions.

All the hundreds of Ultramarine Legion successor chapters, including the Ultramarine chapter share the Ultramarine legion gene seed. They all tithe excess gene seed to the admech where it is basically collected and mixed up. When they need to replenish an under strength Ultramarine chapter or create another Ultramarine Legion Successor chapter they use those collected stocks.

icn1982 wrote:
My understanding is that the Gene seed for each chapter is kept on terra and any of those gene seeds can be used to create new founding's. the simple fact is that no one chapter can produce enough gene seed to create a whole new chapter.

May not be entirely true. Play Space Hulk: Deathwing.