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I started playing back in the days of 4th edition 40K, and the game seemed reasonably well balanced as I got into the game over a few years. Sure, some units were crap, and others were slightly better, but that felt like it was the case for all armies. Felt like I could plonk my DE down, and have a chance no matter what my enemy threw on the table, even as newer codexes were released. Tau battlesuit spam? Challenging, but you could cope. Daemons? You had to play your deployment right, but you could adapt and it was fun.

One day in 5th though, I played a game against the newlyreleased Space Wolves. They seemed to have some combos that were just that little bit...too good. Not unbeatable, mind you, no more so than a particularly hardened Nob Bikerz unit, but they just seemed to be getting similar save levels and firepower for much lower points costs. It felt like the points costs themselves were far more out of whack than any combo or spammable unit available to any other faction at the time. Then the next codex came out, which was Grey Knights. And that one felt in turn like it skewered things horrendously.

I wasn't around for the big reset of 3rd, but starting in mid 4th, I couldn't feel anything intrinsically overly out of whack with the codexes. There was slight codex creep in that some units were better than others (usually the new model release), but as most armies had one or two above par units, which meant that it all kind of balanced out. Not such a rock paper scissors dynamic. But for me, I felt the first inklings it was all going completely out of sync with that Space Wolf codex, followed by a sudden jarring realisation with the Knights.

Now I'm aware that this is subjective. People feel the power creep at different stages. So for you, when was it? Is that point in my head just that? Imagined? Or did you feel it too? I'm curious.

Started mid 4th as well - some time around the end of fifth with Tau's first ascendency was when it became tangible that something was changing, with the introduction of 'you never get to kill anything' thanks to multiple profiles and high value individual models.

It was compounded when plastic drop pods became a thing, and every army and his dog was built around either alpha strike or counter alpha strike. The two together prompted my first break from the hobby until I started IG.

Quit the game early 3rd ed, returned early 6th ed. Tau 6e book was the first sign of trouble for me. CSM, DA and CD seemed fairly benign, then came Tau, SM, Eldar, IK.

Once the first codex came out in 3rd.

I played RT more as a RPG then a wargame, so there wasn’t a power issue. GMs will help with keeping things balanced. Only sporadically played 2nd near the tail end, so can’t speak to the creep.

3rd was pretty well set out of the box. Everyone was using the bare-bones codex in the book, and they were fairly balanced. But you could tell who at the table was using an actual codex. Those who had them were just better. And the codex creep did not stop there. The newer books were generally better then the old ones.

Late 5th, when Rhino-rush started to become the order of the day. Early 5th was more an exercise in taking away options (with the death of the armoury and list variants in favour of upgrade lists restricted to each unit entry) than in poor balance choices.

It didn't really take off until the Flyers designed/priced as skimmers and the 2+-armour MC spam started in 6th, but 5th was definitely the beginning of the trend.

January this year. They're not even trying to hide it with this Fall of Cadia crap. Eternally respawning Spess Mehrens in Pods? Sure! Want IWND on your Knight Crusader or Azrael? Have at it!

As for it appearing earlier, riddle me this - if "power creep" has been an issue since 3rd Edition then why is it always old Codexes dominating? Space Wolves ruled 5th Edition pretty much uncontested, despite the release of the gimmicky Matt Ward gak-books which were touted online as "Wolf-killers" but were never quite up to the task. Eldar and Tau are the bete noir of 7th Edition, and they're very far from the most recent releases. The last full army book to be released was, I think, Genestealer Cults back in October; GSC can give both Tau and Eldar a hard race but they're very far from an auto-win match-up, and against big Gladius armies (another thing people like to whine about) the GSC can really struggle.

So yeah - where's my power creep? Surely I should be driving over these old-ass books in my stretch Cult Limousine, no?

Day I started playing Sisters of Battle in 7th edition against a guy that felt it was a good idea to field a tesseract vault.

I don't play against necrons anymore.

Edit: By the way, it was my first ever game.

 BBAP wrote:
January this year. They're not even trying to hide it with this Fall of Cadia crap. Eternally respawning Spess Mehrens in Pods? Sure! Want IWND on your Knight Crusader or Azrael? Have at it!

As for it appearing earlier, riddle me this - if "power creep" has been an issue since 3rd Edition then why is it always old Codexes dominating? Space Wolves ruled 5th Edition pretty much uncontested, despite the release of the gimmicky Matt Ward gak-books which were touted online as "Wolf-killers" but were never quite up to the task. Eldar and Tau are the bete noir of 7th Edition, and they're very far from the most recent releases. The last full army book to be released was, I think, Genestealer Cults back in October; GSC can give both Tau and Eldar a hard race but they're very far from an auto-win match-up, and against big Gladius armies (another thing people like to whine about) the GSC can really struggle.

So yeah - where's my power creep? Surely I should be driving over these old-ass books in my stretch Cult Limousine, no?

The power creep is only for the "Have" armies

Orks, CSM, DE, Nids we don't get power creep. At the height of Orky power we were spamming cheap Killa Kanz and running Nob bikers. Nob bikers actually haven't changed since 4th edition and guess what? they suck horrendously now.

As far as when i really noticed the power creep? 5th edition really set the tone and 6th was worse, but then BOOM 7th edition. I played against a buddy of mine who has an eldar army, hes played that army for like a decade so he isn't a TFG or WAAC Player. His first time playing with his 7th edition codex (i had already read it and been disgusted) i had to keep pointing out that his units now did X + New shenanigans and his reactions were always the same quickly followed by "Thats not even fair". After tabling my army on turn 4 he looked at me and said "Well im not going to be able to play much this edition".

That teamed with the Necrons, SM, and Tau codex releases really showed that this game is going on a one up system right now for those armies who are part of the elite "have" group. Those of us without those armies can only sit back and watch.

CSM did have some major issues with it's 3.5 codex however, but in general if you want power creep you look to the Eldar as they've NEVER been a low tier army if they've been updated.

First game ever. Against 3 Imperial Knights. I now refuse to go near the things.

I feel it when I get table before the start of my first turn.


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 malamis wrote:
Started mid 4th as well - some time around the end of fifth with Tau's first ascendency was when it became tangible that something was changing, with the introduction of 'you never get to kill anything' thanks to multiple profiles and high value individual models.

It was compounded when plastic drop pods became a thing, and every army and his dog was built around either alpha strike or counter alpha strike. The two together prompted my first break from the hobby until I started IG.

How do you cope with Alpha Strike as IG?

I think the first time was when 5th ed came out and wound allocation got all wonky, I guess that was more of a meta shift. Soo... GK 5th ed.

After that I steadily rose, then Necrons Decurion came out and it jumped a few steps. It jumped again with Gladius as well as with Wraith knights and Imperial Knights.

Since then its been just crazy all over the place. Some armies are going at 100mph, while others are stuck in a school zone.

Pretty much when they turned 40K into Apocalypse...

I've played since 3rd. Mine was at the start of 6th. Allies. As long as you are playing any single codex, you get to fight the strengths and weaknesses of a single codex but now, when anyone can take anything? You tend to play against the same thing every time.

I didn't mind the WH\DH ally mechanic, as you were limited to a single FOC\Detachment, and taking anything made for genuine sacrifice in your list, now? there is no limitation.

I played predominantly 2nd - went to college, graduated - then played a small amount of late 3rd and I think 3.5 (the trial assault rules predating 4th's proper release?).

At that time you had the usual minor power creep (i.e. each new Codex was a little bit better).

However having come back to the GW fluff, the game currently is unrecognizable in the amount of power creep since the last games I played. Across the board really. However with that power creep has come a 100-200% increase in the amount of models expected on a table.

Started following "current" 40K last two years via podcasts, game reports and forums. Short of recognizing the usual units, the amount of firepower and conversely the amount of armour/saves is genuinely unrecognizable. While the game framework under 7th is still the basic 3rd stuff - there is almost zero similarity.

I felt it in my last game, when I was up against a Warhound Titan at 1500 points with my Harlequins and Dark Eldar.

Being used to Imperial Knights and having finally really figured out how to get rid of them, the warhound felt like a joke. It killed maybe 250 points worth of stuff with its blasts before a single harlequin troupe stripped it of over half its HP in one round of melee, then I learned it only had a single attack, and removed 2 models with a Stomp. The remaining three took it down in its subsequent assault phase.

I finally got that perspective of "oh, this is where we've come from. 400 point superheavies that are *almost* stronger than this guy are just a normal thing now, that we've learned to accept and deal with. Deathstars that would swarm across the board and eat this gigantic model for lunch without taking a scratch are everywhere."

Started in 2nd edition, played through 4th.

Came back to 7th edition last year, and I was instantly horrified.

The very sight of all the knights, titans, super-heavies, lords of war, jetbike armies,....made me physically ill. The first time I played again Warcon I legit felt sad for the game.

the_scotsman wrote:
It killed maybe 250 points worth of stuff with its blasts before a single harlequin troupe stripped it of over half its HP in one round of melee, then I learned it only had a single attack, and removed 2 models with a Stomp. The remaining three took it down in its subsequent assault phase.

I am curious as to just how you did this?

CSM did have some major issues with it's 3.5 codex however, but in general if you want power creep you look to the Eldar as they've NEVER been a low tier army if they've been updated.

True. So true in fact, that the first time I experienced power creep actually was 2nd ed Eldar with their buckets upon buckets of sustained fire dice, and the "pop-up" attacks from the grav-tanks. 2nd ed Eldar was brutal.

The only time 40k was even close to balanced was the launch of 3rd, with the "get you by" army lists in the back of the book, and even some things then could be abused (Eldar Avatar, 2x 5-man Guardian squads and 3x Wraithlords in 500 points was a thing I believe in this time period). The minute they started releasing codexes though, things got spiraled out of control. Blood Angels came early on and had the overcharged Rhinos that could first turn assault if they rolled well enough.

I started at the very beginning of 3rd edition, right when the first codex was released. There was some definite "power creep" then, but it was very understandable. The core rulebook carried massively trimmed-down versions of all the factions, so as codexes were released, forces naturally got better, but I understood that this was bringing them to where they should be.

Cool beans.

But real, just brutally obvious, power creep didn't really hit the scene for me until Wave Serpent Spam. It was then that I really started noticing the power creep, where units just received massive points discounts for no reason, or where other units got huge buffs for, again, no reason. The most shockingly rampant power-creep that I saw was when they made Super Heavies a part of standard play. Around that same time we also saw the introduction of scat-bikes, decurions, and cheap and shockingly, brutally, effective formations.

Grey Knights and Leaf Blower lists in 5th edition.

So, so strong.

Third edition: Alaitoc with disruption table or Seer Council. Very hard to counter. Nids were generally very good. Iron Warriors with nine Oblits. Chaos with minor psyker powers (siren) and lots of Daemonettes.

 Yarium wrote:
I started at the very beginning of 3rd edition, right when the first codex was released. There was some definite "power creep" then, but it was very understandable. The core rulebook carried massively trimmed-down versions of all the factions, so as codexes were released, forces naturally got better, but I understood that this was bringing them to where they should be.

Cool beans.

But real, just brutally obvious, power creep didn't really hit the scene for me until Wave Serpent Spam. It was then that I really started noticing the power creep, where units just received massive points discounts for no reason, or where other units got huge buffs for, again, no reason. The most shockingly rampant power-creep that I saw was when they made Super Heavies a part of standard play. Around that same time we also saw the introduction of scat-bikes, decurions, and cheap and shockingly, brutally, effective formations.

We complained about the power creep in 3rd, and it was a real noticeable thing. To the point where I still recall it through the haze of years.

But it’s nothing compared to what’s been going on in the last few years. I’ve got this image of a 3rd ed player, just woken up from stasis, complaining about creep, just to be shut down hard by the 7th ed guy “let me tell you about wraithknights..."

 don_mondo wrote:
Pretty much when they turned 40K into Apocalypse...

Bingo.
It was an exciting time when they came up with the concept of Apocalypse (Oct 2007).
They added a few things in the BRB for Apocalypse specifically to help with "balancing the points" but the main intent was to "bring anything you want".
Ever since then, it has been a steady progression to pretty much make it always an Apocalypse game.
Formations were introduced for the first time in those books, it is now the norm.
This is when I first thought that if this version of the game was embraced too well by us: GW would see no reason not to make it the actual game.

I would also agree that the most noticeable power JUMP not creep was the Wolves (Oct 2009) and Grey Knights (Apr 2011) (Separated from Inquisition codex).
Eldar became a REAL force when they finally released the "new" Wave Serpent model (~Sept 2004).
Tau were pretty much awesome since the day of launch (Oct 2001).

I started at the tail end of 3rd. There has always been power creep (a few dud codexes would come up here and there, but the overall arch of power was consistently going upwards), and there always will be.

 BBAP wrote:
January this year. They're not even trying to hide it with this Fall of Cadia crap. Eternally respawning Spess Mehrens in Pods? Sure!

They would not spawn in the pods, as the dedicated transport is (a) not a part of the unit and (b) they enter reserve, not deep strike reserve.

I started in seventh - I felt the power creep when I got my hands on the Curse of the Wulfen supplement and saw the Bestial Swiftness and Alpha Hunters curses.
First turn charges to compete with armies that can end a game with first turn shooting.
Super Heavies had stepped out of Apoc before I started. Super powered Tau and Eldar were already running around - I felt it when my refusal to use the allies matrix stopped mattering.

I think most of you are mistaking mismatches with power creep.

Just because your special snowflake army can't beat "insert bs army I don't like here" you claim power creep.

The last time there was a major power creep was 5th ed Grey Knights, why? If 40+% of the armies at a GT with 80+ people are playing that one army......that's probably a problem.

At the moment, for example, there are two major armies from, a power standpoint (Eldar and Marines), but those armies are not necessarily winning it all from tourney to tourney.

5th ed GK were unbeatable, it was dumb, and there was nothing you could do other then lose your first game and hope not to play them the rest of the tourney.

Scatbikes were certainly a power creep.