FW marine vehicles in formations

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**spiralingcadaver**

So... feelings on the following in a friendly game? Appropriate, too much, too complex, too lenient, something cheesy? Some combination of the below ideas?

Alternatively, would you be fine with the swap and common sense in friendly games (i.e. a dread isn't interchangeable with a land raider)?

If neither and the only way you'd be fine with FW guys is in a generic formation, why?

Version 1L At regular cost (and full cost if the unit it is replacing is discounted) and subject to regular fielding limitations, in formations that name specific models (i.e. not generic force org-style, since those allow access already) you may replace...
one land raider with one land raider variant
one predator with one Diemos predator or sicaran battle tank*
one whirlwind with one hyperios or scorpius*
one stormraven, stormfang, or stormwolf with one storm eagle or caestus assault ram**
one land speeder squadron with one tempest squadron or javelin attack speeder
one drop pod with one lucius
one venerable dreadnought with one chaplain dreadnought or character dreadnought
one dreadnought with one mortis or siege dreadnought
one rhino taken for a command squad or honor guard squad with one damocles rhino
one razorback with one infernum razorback
one servitor squad with one tarantula sentry gun battery
one thunderfire cannon with one rapier weapons battery

Or, if a formation includes...
dreadnoughts, you may add one leviathan or deredeo dreadnought
land raiders, you may add one spartan
drop pods, you may add one deathstorm
whirlwinds, you may add one land raider helios
flyers, you may add one fire raptor

...per formation you take if the faction is your primary faction, or in a single formation if it isn't.

* these follow regular relic limitations
** if it doesn't required to transport a dreadnought

Version 2: One forge world vehicle may be fielded per 2 formations from its respective faction, rounded down, as part of its detachment. (For instance, a minimum battle company of 2 cores + 1 aux would allow 1 FW piece).

Version 3: One forge world vehicle per formation may replace a vehicle which shares its type ((non-transport) flyer, walker, (non-transport) tank; transport flyer, transport tank, skimmer, immobile transport) and is within 25% of the same base cost.(This one would exclude a few...)

**AnomanderRake**

I'd rather see formations written explicitly for the FW vehicles rather than just porting them into existing formations. The existing formations are designed for the ordinary vehicles and may be unbalanced by the introduction of other vehicles; giving a Deredeo a bonus Shooting phase via the Blood Angels' Chapter Ancients formation or giving a Whirlwind Scorpius a spotter via the Suppression Force is pushing it.

**spiralingcadaver**

Sure, what about the 2nd option, i.e. just the detachment bonus and a little flexibility?

I prefer to design closer to global changes than work with more likely biased structures I make myself (would feel like "well, these are the things I think are cool together, I'll encourage myself to take these by giving me a buff").

**AnomanderRake**

So double-checking IA2, the formations, and the FW downloads page I'd say FW vehicles fall into three categories:

-Tame variants. Whirlwind Hyperios, Deimos Predator, that sort of thing; really just weapon swaps on a preexisting vehicle. Probably just fine allowed in existing formations.

-Fancy relic vehicles. Sicarans, the duffle-coat Dreadnaughts, the Spartan, things that are big and scary enough that allowing their inclusion is sort of advantage enough, they don't deserve formation benefits.

-Big things. Superheavies. Thunderhawk, Fellblade, that sort of thing.

The first group can probably just be incorporated into existing formations (i.e. the 'Anti-Air Defense Force' is "2 units chosen from: Stalker, Hunter, Whirlwind Hyperios", an Armoured Task Force may include one Deimos Relic Predator squadron in place of an ordinary Predator squadron, any formation that could include all three normal Land Raiders (i.e. not the Salamanders' Redeemer-only choice) can use the Helios or Proteus...).

The second group needs extra categories or extra formations stapled onto the existing structure; I'd say for most of them fit on a "Relics of the Armoury" selection that's 0-1 per Core choice and allows the inclusion of the Achilles, Spartan, Sicaran, etc.

And the third group gets to be 0-1 if the meta-formation already has at least two Core choices, sort of the equivalent of Mymeara's mechanism for allowing Titans in a Craftworld Warhost. You can use them, but in pretty big games where you've already got lots of stuff.

Will write up a more complete list later today, have classes soonish.

**AnomanderRake**

Update: Details.

Given that it's hardly fair to try and give the loyalist Legions IA2 vehicles in meta-formations without giving the traitor Legions IA13 vehicles in meta-formations there's actually a slightly mad quantity of units to check here; 21 meta-formations (one for each original Legion plus the Anvil Strike Force, Gladius Strike Force, and Lost Brotherhood Strike Force), 31 IA2 units, 28 IA13 units, and four units currently available as .pdfs. I shall see if I can't generalize this down some.

First: Relic of the Armoury. A formation or detachment may include only one unit with this rule. A meta-formation may include one unit with this rule per component formation. All units discussed in this post other than Dreadnaughts should be assumed to have the Relic of the Armoury rule. (Edit: Changed from 'model' to 'unit' for clarity when handling Rapiers.)

(Spoilered for ease of navigation.)

Meta-Formation Notes

Spoiler:

At the moment I'm thinking all meta-formations can be treated kind of the same way with regard to access to FW vehicles; running on the logic that if a meta-formation is allowed a formation loaded down with Predators that get free stuff giving them a single Sicaran with no formation benefits of its own won't be that out of line.

The only points to worry about, off the top of my head:

-Giving the Anvil Strike Force access to superheavies. At the moment the most "target vehicle can fire its weapons again" can give you is a Demolisher cannon, or two Inferno Cannons; if we stick the Fellblade into the detachment that adds the option to double-tap the accelerator cannon, and four lascannon shots, and a demolisher cannon all at once. I'd say either make Big Guns Never Tire not applicable to superheavies or allow said superheavy to fire one gun again instead of all of them. This still lets you double-tap a Thunderhawk laser destroyer or a Typhon siege gun but given that you've got to have (at minimum) six Predators, three Techmarines, and a Rhino on top of your superheavy to enable this I'm slightly less worried about it.

-The Thousand Sons' Grand Coven is already taking single vehicle squadrons as Auxiliary choices with no formation benefits, adding relic vehicles seems to make those choices slightly obsolete. I'm not entirely sure how worrying this is given that the relic vehicles are tied to the Core choices (so you're only getting one unless you're in a really big game) and given that you're giving up Warp Charge to do it, so I'm going to leave it be for now.

-PotMS from the Fist of Medusa Strike Force. I'm not actually that worried about this one either given that the superheavies can already fire all weapons after moving and anything in Imperial Armour that's more abusive than firing a Demolisher cannon after going 12" has a specific rule preventing it from firing after the vehicle moves independent of the normal vehicle rules (Firing Calibration on heavy conversion beamers...), and given that Fast Predators firing Flamestorm Cannons on the move from the Blood Angels haven't broken the game yet.

Dreadnaughts

Spoiler:

Other Replaces-Existing-Unit Vehicles

Spoiler:

The Relics choice

Spoiler:

Superheavies

Spoiler:

Specific/Outlier Rulings

Spoiler:

(Chaos planes, Daemon Engines, and Tarantulas are not covered here at the moment.)

**spiralingcadaver**

That sounds pretty reasonable, and is quite thorough!

Would anyone else have a problem with those modifications in a friendly game?