Quick question on KDK

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**Pr3Mu5**

I played a game the other day a fairly low points cost (1000) against a Chaos player with Chaos Marines and Khorne Daemons. I had a tough time mainly because, playing maelstrom, he kept using Blood tythe points to summon more units of Daemons onto objectives… and I wondered, can you do this without any kind of Psycher to summon with? (he had none in his army). I thought to summon you had to have someone who could summon, but I am probably wrong. Either way I found it incredibly frustrating that no matter how many I killed they just kept coming back and more… so in the end he had more units on the field than he had started with. What didn’t help was that he had AP 2 and 3 on pretty much everything in combat too with a lot of attacks being Khorne
If this is legal is there a tried and tested way people have found to deal with it?

**curran12**

That's how KDK operate. They have a system of Blood Tithe that, the more units and champions that die (both on his side and yours), the more of a budget he has to use powers such as summoning. That said, at 1000 points, I'm surprised that both sides had a great number of units to summon from.

Can you give a breakdown of your lists?

**Pr3Mu5**

Yeh fair enough. I had basically power armour guys in Rhinos and a Drop pod and a squad of tactical terminators. We'd previously been playing on club nights at 1500 and having been absent for a while I hadn't realised that the points had been dropped to 1000 for all games. He had two big units of bloodletters, 2 or 3 units of talons with lightening claws, a blob of spawn, a Hellbrute and that weird chariot cannon thing. And his warlord was a close combat AP2 champion looking guy but not Kharn. In addition though he brought a load of extra bloodletters and hounds to summon and I struggled as he killed off more and more of my army to keep up with the number of units he had on the board.

**hippyjr**

Well he would get a boatload of blood tithe for wrecking all your transports, but without going MSU keeping up with his losses would be tricky. He'd need 5+ deaths per turn to get a summon every turn (including challenge kills, but still)

**Galef**

Also keep in mind that the main KDK detachment gives a free Tithe point per turn, so that's another way to build up the points quickly

**Pr3Mu5**

So how many tithe points does a KDK player need to summon something?
The main question though is how do you beat it? My thinking is even if i did go msu everywhere with all the AP 3 and AP 2 he has in close combat my marines have very little staying power and he's respawning units and I can't.

**Galef**

Pr3Mu5 wrote:
So how many tithe points does a KDK player need to summon something?
The main question though is how do you beat it? My thinking is even if i did go msu everywhere with all the AP 3 and AP 2 he has in close combat my marines have very little staying power and he's respawning units and I can't.

They have a chart that spending points gives certain bonuses to the army. I think 4 or 5 points are needed to actually create a new unit.
Edit: here's a run down:

Spoiler:

Blood for the Blood God! - Every unit that you or your enemy kills on the field (which can make your opponent a bit gun shy about finishing your units off) or when your character is killed or when an enemy character dies in a challenge gets converted into Blood Tithe points. You can only stock 8 points at a time, but you can use them for cool stuff (Issue is that whatever you pick, you spend all your points on it, even if you have more points than needed):
--Infernal Contempt - 1 point. Grants all units with BftBG Adamantium Will for a turn.
--Insatiable Bloodlust - 2 points. Grants all units with BftBG Rage and Furious Charge for a turn,
--Unstoppable Ferocity - 3 points. All units with BftBG get FNP for a turn.
--Apocalyptic Fury - 4 points. All units with BftBG gain +1 Attack for a turn.

--Daemontide - 5 points. 8 Bloodletters/5 Flesh Hounds are summoned within 12" of a model with BftBG.
Harbingers of Blood and Skulls - 6 Points. 3 Bloodcrushers/A Skull Cannon is summoned within 12" of a model with BftBG.
--Dark Apotheosis - 7 Points. Find a character without the Daemon of Khorne USR. He must test Leadership. If he fails, he's now a...thing. If he passes, congrats, he's now a Daemon Prince with Warp-Forged Armor and maybe wings, though he is "summoned" within 6" of his old position meaning potential scatter issues. Also, he keeps any Artefacts of Slaughter he had provided they are compatible and his WT. Either way he counts as being removed as a casualty (see below why this is important) Therefore it still confers a killpoint if it was an independent character, but thankfully, either result doesn't count as Slaying the Warlord if your Warlord was picked. The new May 2016 FAQ says that conjured or summoned FMCs must be declared as either in Swooping or Gliding mode when they arrive on the board. They still arrive via deep strike, so cannot charge that turn either way. But now the choice of wings or no wings is down to what you build the model as.
--Fury Unbound - 8 points. Find a character without the Daemon of Khorne USR. He must test Leadership. If he fails, he's gone (And now your enemy is awarded for Slay the Warlord if you used your Warlord). If he passes, you now have a new Unfettered Fury Bloodthirster with the same WT, and if that guy was your warlord, the thirster's now your Warlord. Like Dark Apotheisis, your original model is still "removed as a casualty" and the new Bloodthirster is summoned to the table via deep strike so doesn't get into killing straight away.

The best way to stop those Tithe points is to
A) NOT go MSU. If he can easily kill several unit in a turn, that's more Tithe points he can gain, and
B) try not to entirely wipe his units either...at first. If you can weaken several of his units down to 1-2 models only, than you can deny him points

You also beat KDK by denying assaults. While many unit KDK have don't have to assault to be good, most of them do. If you can avoid assaults at all costs, you deny over half his army.

**hippyjr**

Also, if he ever reaches 8 tithe points (the max you can get at once), kill as much as you can before he spends them. He won't get any points for units that die while his tithe is full.

Not so useful in small games, but might help if you ever play a bigger game.

**Roknar**

Well he needs 5 points to summon, but you can accumulate points very fast sometimes.
Depending on the warlord trait, he could wipe a single msu unit and gain a total of 5 points already. 1 for the warlord trait, 1 with a relic, 1 for killing a character, 1 for wiping a unit and 1 free point from the decurion. And all he did was kill 5 scouts. I'm not saying it's a realistic scenario but yea, it's not hard to gain the points if things go in his favour. You having an msu army is already swinging in his favour.