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With the 'changes' (arguably nerfs) to blast weapons and the nerf to cover, it seems that the Typhon Heavy Siege Tank (which is quite a bit more expensive now) is almost entirely useless. It's dreadhammer, which used to be able to deal with hordes, elites and vehicles is now unreliable in shot output and only decent against tough, single model units. And even then, you could get far more of that type of firepower on cheaper platforms. For 500 points, you could end up with 2 s10 shots, whereas before for 350 you would get a 7" blast that only really allowed invuln saves (and everyone and their aunt has one in this edition). For less points, you could have a spartan with 8 guaranteed lascannon shots, that can also ferry a sh it tonne of models into battle, albeit with less durability.

To make this thing more feasible, I think it should have some of the randomness removed: 4d3 instead of 2d6 for example. And it should have relevant replacements to the ignores cover and primary weapon rules that it used to have (that made it amazing), rather than just scrapping it's special rules entirely. The only positive I see is that it's much tougher to kill - which makes it something of an iron spoon (or whatever the opposite of glass hammer is).

What are your thoughts on the Typhon now?

Sorry man, the Stormsword was hit worse. It used to have a weapon with almost exact same rules as the Typhon's cannon, now it's stuck with 1d6 attacks (roll twice and take the highest). So it went from having a blast nearly twice the size of the typhons, to getting an average of 4.47 attacks vs the typhon's 7? Explain that one to me.

Not trying to sound like I'm invalidating your argument. IMO, BOTH tanks need to have their main cannons upgraded as they simply don't scare anybody for the points.

I've only got the chaos index for FW, so I wasn't aware what happened to the guards super heavies. But, sh it man...10" blast down to 1d6, wtf were they thinking!

Lancelot185 wrote:
I've only got the chaos index for FW, so I wasn't aware what happened to the guards super heavies. But, sh it man...10" blast down to 1d6, wtf were they thinking!

They were thinking:

"Man, we really need to sell hordes this edition."

"What are hordes weak to?"

"Templates. Let's remove templates."

"Oh, and high-shot-count weapons."

"Yeah, feth those things!"

 chrispy1991 wrote:
Sorry man, the Stormsword was hit worse. It used to have a weapon with almost exact same rules as the Typhon's cannon, now it's stuck with 1d6 attacks (roll twice and take the highest). So it went from having a blast nearly twice the size of the typhons, to getting an average of 4.47 attacks vs the typhon's 7? Explain that one to me.

Not trying to sound like I'm invalidating your argument. IMO, BOTH tanks need to have their main cannons upgraded as they simply don't scare anybody for the points.

Blasts are a perpetually weird problem, since the way GW writes them (uniform damage to everything hit) there isn't really a sensible balance possible between effectiveness against a single-wound swarm and effectiveness against large/hard targets. In 7th the Typhon was horrendously powerful because guns were statted around what happened when you shot single hard targets so anything that wasn't a vehicle or MC under the template just got deleted, now it's still enough to make Terminators sit up and take notice (2.67 killed a turn on average), and it can make Land Raiders poo themselves (9.33 wounds a turn on average), but single-wound infantry just short of shrug and keep going.

The only real fix to the skewiness of blasts would be to make blasts either do one single powerful hit and a bunch of less powerful ones (the way Warmachine does it (and the way WHFB did it), and the way the Forge World conversion beamer works), or to make some kind of cumulative increased effect from multiple hits on large targets (the way Bolt Action does it) so you can have an all-round gun that isn't too good at deleting hard targets, too bad at handling swarms, or both.

(As for the Stormhammer I'm putting that down to a casualty of trying to preserve all the Baneblade variants. The fact that they made nine in the first place was kind of silly; nobody knows what any of them do, nobody can keep the mix-and-match names straight, and the writers can't differentiate the guns very well.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

Lancelot185 wrote:
I've only got the chaos index for FW, so I wasn't aware what happened to the guards super heavies. But, sh it man...10" blast down to 1d6, wtf were they thinking!

They were thinking:

"Man, we really need to sell hordes this edition."

"What are hordes weak to?"

"Templates. Let's remove templates."

"Oh, and high-shot-count weapons."

"Yeah, feth those things!"

(Except for Scatterbikes. And the Fire Raptor. 9pt mortar teams. FRF/SRF. Venoms. Assault-cannon Razorbacks. Swooping Hawks. War Walkers. The Land Raider Crusader. Dakkapredators. Riflemen Dreadnaughts. Baal Predators. Grav-flux Bombards. Punisher cannons. Frag cannons. But yeah. Except for those all the high-shot-count weapons are all gone. Maybe a few others.)

(Disclaimer: This is a sarcastic rejoinder. It is not intended to be taken as an absolute statement that everything I've just listed off is cost-effective and good at killing hordes in 8th, simply that high-shot-count weapons are still very much alive.)

Some big shot tanks got nerfed ugly. The Vindicator is an example of this. D3 shots, but strength 10 doesn't mean what it once did, and a -3AP means that even if you hit with those D3 shots, things are still saving. Previously, it was a 5" ordnance strength 10 ap1 blast, which is "yikes" status.

 AnomanderRake wrote:


(Except for Scatterbikes. And the Fire Raptor. 9pt mortar teams. FRF/SRF. Venoms. Assault-cannon Razorbacks. Swooping Hawks. War Walkers. The Land Raider Crusader. Dakkapredators. Riflemen Dreadnaughts. Baal Predators. Grav-flux Bombards. Punisher cannons. Frag cannons. But yeah. Except for those all the high-shot-count weapons are all gone. Maybe a few others.)

(Disclaimer: This is a sarcastic rejoinder. It is not intended to be taken as an absolute statement that everything I've just listed off is cost-effective and good at killing hordes in 8th, simply that high-shot-count weapons are still very much alive.)

Still fits muh theme if they're ineffective/inefficient.

Except LR Crusaders. For all intents and purposes, when taken with a Multi-Melta up top, it's a Methul Bawks with a squad of marines glued on either side and three dreadnoughts welded on the front.

Still fits muh theme if they're ineffective/inefficient.

Given the changes to twin-linked, the majority of weapons I've seen (at least for chaos) have had a buff to their shot-count. Rapiers with their 12 shots a piece, fire raptors with 24 s5, 10 s6 and 4 s9 (lascannons) etc etc. These things are very effective and efficient.

I do agree with your point that losing templates has impacted horde control (but there are new alternatives like the aforementioned...that may not be as effective), but I don't agree with your reasoning as to why templates have gone.

I don't like it when a single option is good against hordes, MCs/vehicles and everything else.
That being said, the Typhon got way over nerfed for those points.

The bigger problem is that Space Marine relic Lords of War are unusable at 2k points unless you use knight/AM allies, run your guys as Ultramarines or include two Thunderhawk Transporters (and probably don't even have enough point left over to give them something to carry). There's nothing else to fill the required 2 non-relic LoW slots that's inexpensive enough to fit.

The Typhon (and most FW Heavy/SHV) were a major turn off in 7ty edition for me.

Basically now, everything is SHV in all but name anyways, but the nerfs were needed.

Eldar Vampire Hunter wrote:
The bigger problem is that Space Marine relic Lords of War are unusable at 2k points unless you use knight/AM allies, run your guys as Ultramarines or include two Thunderhawk Transporters (and probably don't even have enough point left over to give them something to carry). There's nothing else to fill the required 2 non-relic LoW slots that's inexpensive enough to fit.

Can't you have baneblades etc? Imperium so should be able to field 2 of those into LOW detachment. Albeit still expensive point wise.

The bigger problem is that Space Marine relic Lords of War are unusable at 2k points unless you use knight/AM allies, run your guys as Ultramarines or include two Thunderhawk Transporters (and probably don't even have enough point left over to give them something to carry). There's nothing else to fill the required 2 non-relic LoW slots that's inexpensive enough to fit.

Why can't they? Just take a LOW in a super heavy auxiliary detachment.

Edit: I wasn't aware of the relic rule for the Imperium, which is v stupid given that chaos don't have the same restriction.

Chaos versions are also flat better for exactly the same points cost.

Justyn wrote:
Chaos versions are also flat better for exactly the same points cost.

B-but.. they said they playtested this :c

And maybe they did. The ability to eat things to heal should cost something though.

Choas get predators that heal when they eat. And cost more than regular chaos predators, which also incidentally cost more than loyalist predators with the same stats. If there's an example of a SHV where the chaos get more for the same price as loyalists then it must be one of those unicorn vehicles because in every other instance, for many a decade, chaos has been paying more for less compared to loyalists. I think space marines have more than enough toys to play with to be complaining about such niche and highly unusual circumstances.

A lot of vehicles will need some tweaking in the coming months. A lot of weapons haven't translated very well into 8th, they'll need looking at as people provide feedback on how they play.

Demantiae wrote:
Choas get predators that heal when they eat. And cost more than regular chaos predators, which also incidentally cost more than loyalist predators with the same stats. If there's an example of a SHV where the chaos get more for the same price as loyalists then it must be one of those unicorn vehicles because in every other instance, for many a decade, chaos has been paying more for less compared to loyalists. I think space marines have more than enough toys to play with to be complaining about such niche and highly unusual circumstances.

A lot of vehicles will need some tweaking in the coming months. A lot of weapons haven't translated very well into 8th, they'll need looking at as people provide feedback on how they play.

Given that I have been routinely told in person that my 5e-7e chaos army was "basically C:SM but cheaper and better", I'd say there are some people who can't/won't count.

Selym wrote:Given that I have been routinely told in person that my 5e-7e chaos army was "basically C:SM but cheaper and better", I'd say there are some people who can't/won't count.

Wow. That's hard to fathom.

 Selym wrote:


Given that I have been routinely told in person that my 5e-7e chaos army was "basically C:SM but cheaper and better", I'd say there are some people who can't/won't count.

Interesting. I felt the exact opposite. I stopped playing mid way through 6th because our Chaos Dex was so badly balanced, especially against SM.

Eldar Vampire Hunter wrote:
The bigger problem is that Space Marine relic Lords of War are unusable at 2k points unless you use knight/AM allies, run your guys as Ultramarines or include two Thunderhawk Transporters (and probably don't even have enough point left over to give them something to carry). There's nothing else to fill the required 2 non-relic LoW slots that's inexpensive enough to fit.

This is your personal problem. In 8th it isn't necessary to 'run your guys as 'Ultramarines' or indeed any army by 7e conventions. You can throw in any Imperium LoW into the other two slots and into any other slots of any other detachments you might have. 'Allies' is an outdated way of thinking.

If anything, the problem with the relics is that there's such an advantage playing them as UM with Gulliman's buff that they might as well not exist for any other chapter. And when you do run them this way, you'll see how they're balanced or outright better than the Chaos versions.

If anything, the problem with the relics is that there's such an advantage playing them as UM with Gulliman's buff that they might as well not exist for any other chapter. And when you do run them this way, you'll see how they're balanced or outright better than the Chaos versions.

So a 700 point model and a 400 point model are 'balanced or outright better' than just a 700 point model? Well then, I didn't realize how awesome Gulliman is, now if only I can get all my opponents to let me take Gulliman for free so my 700 point model is the same as their 700 point model. Oh and let me play my <insert any chapter but ultras here> as Ultramarines so that i can use his effects.

None of what you said changed the fact that Chaos versions of the Relic Superheavies are flat better than the Imperial ones. They have no requirement that you take a second LoW, and they can heal themselves.