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I played (another) game against Celestine tonight.

Does anyone else find her rules absolutely absurd?

It's bad enough that she's effectively an 11 wound model with the character rule... The fact that you've got to kill her twice is just lame. 22 wounds.. it's like fighting a knight you can't shoot.

Don't get me started on the fact that she's only 150 points.

I'm seriously considering declining to play against her in the future.

She's a bit powerful, but she's 250 points if she has the two Geminae with her, and 7 wounds if she doesn't, which is a bit less ridiculous.

Absolute cancer. Her rules and everything about her is over powered, She should not be able to replace the superiors and she should have guillimans ressurection rules ie on a 4+ and d6 wounds. She should also be more points.

 Skalathrax8 wrote:
Absolute cancer. Her rules and everything about her is over powered, She should not be able to replace the superiors and she should have guillimans ressurection rules ie on a 4+ and d6 wounds. She should also be more points.

I'm glad it's not just me. It seems like everyone in my area is running her.... certainly everyone playing AM.

I hope she gets hit with the Nerf stick super hard.... That or has her cost change to accurately reflect her strength. I can't imagine an accurate price for her being under 400+

This isn't so much a 'proposed rules' thread as it is a bitch and moan thread.

Now, she's very powerful, and overly so in some ways. But this isn't the place to just complain about her.

Also, there's no way she's worth more than 400 points. She's not even in remotely the same league as Girlyman, and he sits at 360.

I don't think it's all that bad; Celestine only has Toughness 3 and no protection against Mortal Wounds (other than coming back).
It's also worth bearing in mind that she can only restore one Geminae Superia per turn, so when she does come back (1/6 chance that she does not) it's at 7 wounds until she can use healing tears. The main problem isn't that she comes back, but that she's so mobile that being killed isn't really much of a roadblock to her.

If you're looking for a fix then I'd say making her Miraculous Intervention always work, but only restoring D6 wounds is reasonable, since she also has access to Spirit of the Martyr. I would probably also ditch Healing Tears in order to force her to use Spirit of the Martyr to bring back Geminae Superia, but have their rule enable them to come back with two Wounds rather than 1.

znelson wrote:
I played (another) game against Celestine tonight.

Does anyone else find her rules absolutely absurd?

It's bad enough that she's effectively an 11 wound model with the character rule... The fact that you've got to kill her twice is just lame. 22 wounds.. it's like fighting a knight you can't shoot.

Don't get me started on the fact that she's only 150 points.

I'm seriously considering declining to play against her in the future.

I assume you won't play with or against RG or other equally (or more) powerful characters then?

Guilliman costs over 100 points more than her. He also isn't that mobile and is a lord of war. I think he is more fairly costed than Celestine.

 Skalathrax8 wrote:
Guilliman costs over 100 points more than her. He also isn't that mobile and is a lord of war. I think he is more fairly costed than Celestine.

Guilliman is also a far better close combatant (more than twice as effective as Celestine and her two girls against MEq, and his ability to hit at S12 ensures that he far outclasses her against anything tougher. Guilliman should regularly expect to do double the damage the Celestine does in any given combat) and ranged fighter (considering Celestine doesn't really have a ranged presence at all), has double her toughness with a better save, gives far better buffs to Imperium (and Ultramarine) units at a much wider range, and then gives 3 command points for no additional cost.

What the hell are you smoking?

Hey-Celestine has a heavy flamer! And two bolt pistols, AND Frag and Krak grenades! (Via her Geminae.) /sarcasm

I play Guilliman with the dark imperium force on a regular basis, and Use Celestine with sob. I'm not sure how you're equating the damage he does to double celestine and her sidekicks, nor the effectiveness. Command points are easily gained via small unit sizes, and his ability to give 3 more is game for 360 points. The thing that makes her ridiculous is the way she can restore the superiors, and perform additional acts of faith to the ones already able to be performed. This allows her to effectively fight twice. This goes with the way she instantly revives. It's simply broken that she has, as the op states, 14 wounds, and an infinite supply of new 2 wound models. Strength / toughness is no longer the hindrance it was in 7th. She is default strength 7 regardless. I would have them both increase in points tbh, people sigh and get visibly frustrated when playing either, and it makes me feel guilty.

Command Points aren't that easy to gain, but I will agree that 3 CP isn't the be-all end-all.

Rerolling literally every hit roll and wound roll, though? That kinda is. Not to mention being able to stomp a Knight in CC.

Celestine is a powerful beatstick, especially with her Acts of Faith. But she's nowhere near the powerhouse the G-Man is in terms of an ARMY.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Command Points aren't that easy to gain, but I will agree that 3 CP isn't the be-all end-all.

Rerolling literally every hit roll and wound roll, though? That kinda is. Not to mention being able to stomp a Knight in CC.

Celestine is a powerful beatstick, especially with her Acts of Faith. But she's nowhere near the powerhouse the G-Man is in terms of an ARMY.

Yes but you seem to be using Guilliman's apparent undercosting as justification for Celestine to be 150 points? Like seriously. Shes literally less than half his points.
They should both be increased, both by about 150

I do think they should have a points increase. That being said, Celestine is not worth 300 points without Geminae. Maybe 200, 225?

 JNAProductions wrote:
I do think they should have a points increase. That being said, Celestine is not worth 300 points without Geminae. Maybe 200, 225?

No i probably exaggerated. Id say same as Abaddon.

You can't complain about Celestine's Geminae Superia and then claim that she's only 150 points.

The entire point of the Geminae is to make up for the fact that most things you point at her are going to be wounding her on a 3+ or better. Also keep in mind, once you've dealt a single wound to Celestine herself, wounds can no longer be allocated to the Geminae until Celestine is dead or restored back to her full wounds value.

Guilliman doing double Celestine's damage comes from his higher strength, higher damage values, mortal wound output, and rerolls on everything.
Celestine can use her act of faith to get a free pile in, but remember, it happens at the beginning of her turn. This means that her opponent is always in control of what she can actually target with her free combat. And you should never end your turn with something you don't want in combat with celestine in combat with her. With everyone and their dog looking to get free pile ins as part of their codices (ones that can be used during a player's own combat phase, meaning they can control what their target is), Celestine's pile in becomes less impressive. Celestine also can't get rerolls from anyone but Bobby G (the Canoness aura does not affect her, because despite being from the Order of the Martyred Lady, she does not have the key word).

Now, if I had to fix Celestine, I'd go through the following:

1. Remove Celestine's free act of faith, and give it to the Canoness (who also needs a jump pack, but that's another thread). Much of Celestine's potency ends up being a massive crutch for the Ministorium, as they're a very much incomplete and lacking faction on their own. Spreading that love around makes Celestine less of a god and makes the faction itself more complete and worthwhile. It also doesn't make sense for Celestine to give out faith, since she's summoned by faith. On the other hand, the Canoness is the spiritual leader for her sisters. Consider doing the same for Beacon of Faith.

2. When Celestine resurrects, if no Geminae are still alive, she should be set up at the end of the phase as close as possible to her original position, and at least 1" away from enemy models. None of this teleportation Jesus stuff.

3. Geminae Superia should not be able to be resurrected through the Spirit of the Martyr act of faith. Healing Tears and that's it. Similarly, Celestine should not be able to resurrect with it either. Miraculous Intervention and that's it.


Either way, Celestine is worth no more than 200 without the Geminae.

I'm pretty sure each of my Six Dominion squads in Repressors do a lot more damage than Celestine does. Its all index at the moment, wait till the Dexes all come out. Usually my Celestine dies twice a game anyways, she is just T3. Wrap her up so the Geminae can't spawn, and pile the mortal wounds on. She's not all that.

Hell, if we're talking about Scary Imperium beatsticks, I'm pretty sure that the Eversor Assassin's got that on lock (and 3 of them will happily drop in and shred Celestine and her girls with no effort involved).

If I was going to try and fix Celestine, I'd consider some of the following changes:
- Reduce wounds down to 5 or 6.
- Reduce Attacks to 5.
- Reduce Strength to 5 or 6.
- Change her Healing Tears rule to 'if a Geminae would be revived it returns to play with all its wounds restored' (this would prevent Celestine from bringing back both in the same turn and would mean that bringing back even one requires either an Act of Faith or a nearby Hospitalier).
- Change the way Geminae work entirely (make them a bit stronger, but have them be lone characters - rather than a permanent retinue for Celestine).


Also, just while we're theorycrafting, I'd still really love if we could have a 'generic' living Saint that we could customise, rather than always having to use St. Celestine.

 vipoid wrote:
If I was going to try and fix Celestine, I'd consider some of the following changes:
- Reduce wounds down to 5 or 6.
- Reduce Attacks to 5.
- Reduce Strength to 5 or 6.
- Change her Healing Tears rule to 'if a Geminae would be revived it returns to play with all its wounds restored' (this would prevent Celestine from bringing back both in the same turn and would mean that bringing back even one requires either an Act of Faith or a nearby Hospitalier).
- Change the way Geminae work entirely (make them a bit stronger, but have them be lone characters - rather than a permanent retinue for Celestine).


Also, just while we're theorycrafting, I'd still really love if we could have a 'generic' living Saint that we could customise, rather than always having to use St. Celestine.

That would be great! Maybe when they release Sisters in plastic

Sob overall are pretty broken right now. Celestine is just icing on the cake.

 koooaei wrote:
Sob overall are pretty broken right now. Celestine is just icing on the cake.

Seriously? They're in a better place than they've been in aeons, maybe ever, but broken? What?

Celestine is verging on broken - if you don't have the tools to deal with her, she's terrifying, and a top-tier threat even if you do, and almost certainly too cheap - but the rest of the army? How do you figure?

Outside of Celestine, Sisters have one good unit, Dominions, and two solid transports, the Immolator and the Repressor. Heavy bolter Retributors are okay, and Seraphim are only worth taking to accompany Celestine. Aside from stormbolter spam, Scions do all of that better. Without Celestine, they're entirely forgettable. The best Sisters list is one that takes Celestine and a single extra squad of sisters to make use of the extra act of faith, and then fills the rest of the slots with better Imperium units.

 Skalathrax8 wrote:
Absolute cancer. Her rules and everything about her is over powered, She should not be able to replace the superiors and she should have guillimans ressurection rules ie on a 4+ and d6 wounds. She should also be more points.

Yeah, screw that. She's great but if you're having this much trouble with a 250pt T3 model it's because you're bad at the game.

Out of interest, Skalathrax8, how would you feel about Celestine's resurrection being akin to her 5th edition counterpart?

So, she'd revive on a 4+ with d3 wounds (though d6 might make more sense now), but can attempt to revive each turn - not just the first time she dies.

If you don't approve of this, would it make any difference if some of her other stats were toned down? (e.g. if her strength was reduced to 5, if she lost a wound etc.)

I Would be fine with the pseudo Reanimation Protocols idea.