Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello,

1.) When rounding do you round up or round down? I can confirm that when rounding dice results you round up (Core rules, side column, page 176) but what about other cases, for example when deciding how many units in a matched play army can start in reserves (if you have 11 drops can you reserve 5 units or 6)?


2.) When multiplying do you multiply first and then add modifiers (I believe 7th edition did it this way)? For example if a Redemptor Dreadnought has Might of Heroes cast on it (+1 Strength) does it attack with its claw at 15 strength or 16 strength (7x2) +1 or (7+1)x2 ?

Holland wrote:
When rounding do you round up or round down? I can confirm that when rounding dice results you round up (Core rules, side column, page 176) but what about other cases, for example when deciding how many units in a matched play army can start in reserves (if you have 11 drops can you reserve 5 units or 6)?

The rule is particularly clear on the matter. From page 215 of the main rulebook:

When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield,...

If you have seven units which number is at least half, three or four?

Ah, Thank you! That answers the one case, but I am still curious about other times you may be asked to round. I am also still curious about the multiplying guidelines.

Mathematically, you round up a .5 result, so unless the rules say otherwise, that would be the default.

As for multiplication vs. addition modifiers, that is explicitly covered in the rulebook in the 'modifying characteristics' sidebar.

Ah thank you, I did not see that sidebar!

I also located an example in the designer commentary that further clarifies the math:

Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic,
and that model is equipped with a melee weapon
that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain
the order in which the modifiers are applied to the
characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s current
Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers
to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply
any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you
then modify this value as described by the weapon’s
Strength characteristic.
For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength
characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a
friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an
enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic.
That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then
fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength
characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at
Strength 10.

Holland wrote:
Ah thank you, I did not see that sidebar!

I also located an example in the designer commentary that further clarifies the math:

Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic,
and that model is equipped with a melee weapon
that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain
the order in which the modifiers are applied to the
characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s current
Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers
to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply
any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you
then modify this value as described by the weapon’s
Strength characteristic.
For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength
characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a
friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an
enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic.
That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then
fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength
characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at
Strength 10.

OH, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! They start by making it perfectly clear in the sidebar, and then this comes and muddies the waters. It was perfectly clear when they just said "multiplication first, then addition," but this FAQ is saying there are four steps. First multiply for stat-change, then add for stat change, then multiply for weapon characteristic and then add for weapon characteristic.

I don't think this is a well known thing, and I think most everyone would argue that it doesn't work like this.

Imagine this:

My Canticle this turn is Invocation of Machine Might. All affected units are +1STR
My Enginseer hits with his Servo Arm. x2 STR.

Now, most people know, as has been stated, that multiplication goes first, then addition. So, he's STR4, multiply to 8, plus 1 gives us S9.
EXCEPT THAT'S NOT THE CASE ACCORDING TO THE COMMENTARY.
Because the +1 is to their base stat. So the Enginseer is 4+1=5STR, multiply to S10.

Why make this distinction? Why is that distinction not brought up in the rulebook? WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE!?

 Purifier wrote:

Holland wrote:
Ah thank you, I did not see that sidebar!

I also located an example in the designer commentary that further clarifies the math:

Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic,
and that model is equipped with a melee weapon
that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain
the order in which the modifiers are applied to the
characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s current
Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers
to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply
any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you
then modify this value as described by the weapon’s
Strength characteristic.
For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength
characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a
friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an
enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic.
That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then
fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength
characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at
Strength 10.

OH, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! They start by making it perfectly clear in the sidebar, and then this comes and muddies the waters. It was perfectly clear when they just said "multiplication first, then addition," but this FAQ is saying there are four steps. First multiply for stat-change, then add for stat change, then multiply for weapon characteristic and then add for weapon characteristic.

I don't think this is a well known thing, and I think most everyone would argue that it doesn't work like this.

Imagine this:

My Canticle this turn is Invocation of Machine Might. All affected units are +1STR
My Enginseer hits with his Servo Arm. x2 STR.

Now, most people know, as has been stated, that multiplication goes first, then addition. So, he's STR4, multiply to 8, plus 1 gives us S9.
EXCEPT THAT'S NOT THE CASE ACCORDING TO THE COMMENTARY.
Because the +1 is to their base stat. So the Enginseer is 4+1=5STR, multiply to S10.

Why make this distinction? Why is that distinction not brought up in the rulebook? WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE!?

Welcome to GW rules. They're riddled with inconsistencies. And yes, you're right. There are effectively 4 stages for modifying a model's strength. Sometimes you'll add, then multiply. Sometimes you'll multiply, then add. It's garbage writing.

Purifier,
There is a nice padded wall beside my computer for a reason, you can make use of it if you like.