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2017/11/06 20:13:53
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Lets take a look at these stratagems.
-Eldar have a new one called forewarned 2CP. Allows a unit within 6" of a farseer to get a free turn of shooting against any enemy unit that deep strike that turn. Unlimited range, no negatives to hit.
Think 10 man dark reapers....
-Space marine have auspex scanner 2 CP. Allows a space marine unit to shoot at a unit entering from reserves at -1 to hit if they are within 12 inches. So -1 to hit and extremely short range...the enemy has to willing drop within range of a super unit that still wont be able to hit them with -1 to hit. for the same cost.
uhh what?
-Only raven guard can use the infiltrate just before the beginning of the game stratagem.
-Any Eldar craft-world can use the webway portal.
Then we have Chapter tactics rule which only affects infantry bikers and dreads - Not our tanks...which are actually the only thing that is competitive in our codex. Which is also sad. Every other army? Unlimitted access to their army traits. The only thing the marines have is Guilliman. Is chapter approved going to fix all this?
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2017/11/06 20:15:10
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Wicked Warp Spider
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Worst compared to what?
What DG or GK have of comparable?
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Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis! |
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2017/11/06 20:19:17
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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I still think it's pretty well balanced when you consider how expensive some of the Eldar choices are still. The "intercept" stratagem is a bit odd though, I'll give you that. If fits thematically, but the Marine one really should only be 1CP. Also, let me adjust this statement for you: -ANY, up to half your army of Raven Guard can use the infiltrate just before the beginning of the game stratagem. -Up to 2 max Eldar craft-world units can use the webway portal As for "Chapter Tactics" only applying to Infantry and Dreads: Keep in mind that all the CWE traits (except Alaitoc) are very specific and not all that great for the whole army We have 1 good "all purpose" trait and 4 "meh" ones that you have to build your army to use. Marines have what? 7 and at least 3-4 really good ones. -
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/11/06 20:26:12
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2017/11/06 20:23:00
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Gk codex is terrible. It's strategmes are very good in comparison to the marine book though. In comparison I know greyknights can deep strike any 1 unit plus most their army can deep strike anyways. Some are just rehashes from the space marine book though. DG I don't know much about. AdMech/ AM/Eldar I have very familiar with and their strategems just blow space marines out of the water with army wide access to their army trait.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2017/11/06 20:23:05
Subject: Re:Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Kid_Kyoto
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I'm still going to disagree with the SM codex being the worst. GK is hands down.
That being said, I'm going to agree that there's a noteworthy gap in capabilities between those two stratagems though, and for the same price.
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2017/11/06 20:24:38
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Galef wrote:I still think it's pretty well balanced when you consider how expensive some of the Eldar choices are still.
The "intercept" stratagem is a bit odd though
Also, let me point fix this statement for you:
- ANY raven guard can use the infiltrate just before the beginning of the game stratagem.
- Up to 2 max Eldar craft-world units can use the webway portal
As for "Chapter Tactics" only applying to Infantry and Dreads: Keep in mind that all the CWE traits (except Alaitoc) are very specific and not all that great
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Well Ulthwe for example might not be that great but it's better than the iron hands because it applies to vehicals and artillery as well. Automatically Appended Next Post: daedalus wrote:I'm still going to disagree with the SM codex being the worst. GK is hands down.
That being said, I'm going to agree that there's a noteworthy gap in capabilities between those two stratagems though, and for the same price.
To be fair greyknights are just space marines with a different army trait. They get some new units and lose a lot of units. I still rank them higher than space marines as long as you don't bring guilliman to the table. For example my greyknights are 2-0 against my friends salamanders. They don't feel underpowered against marines - just everything else.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/06 20:28:46
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2017/11/06 20:29:02
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Galef wrote:I still think it's pretty well balanced when you consider how expensive some of the Eldar choices are still.
Also, let me point fix this statement for you:
-ANY raven guard can use the infiltrate just before the beginning of the game stratagem.
-Up to 2 max Eldar craft-world units can use the webway portal
Clarification:
Raven Guard one applies strictly to keyword " INFANTRY" units. So while it might allow more than 2 units at a time, it doesn't apply to Bikers or anything else.
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2017/11/06 21:06:07
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Preacher of the Emperor
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I don't think SM players can make any claims until every army has a codex. Then, as soon as that happens, it'll be SM's turn to get a new one.
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2017/11/06 21:16:26
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Yep, SM codex confirmed worst. I expect them to immediately never win a tournament again forever until this travesty of a codex is replaced. Furthermore, if I ever lose to an SM army in a casual game, I will hang my head in shame, such is the horrible, awful, complete failure that is the SM codex. In fact, I will pity my opponent even as he tables me for having such a god-awful codex. If only Space Marines could be like the Sisters of Battle and have a /good/ army for once, that is well-updated and has its own stratagems, new model line to go with 8th, and awesome <Order> tactics for the six major orders, as well as regular releases and a nice unit variety. Guess someone's gotta be bottom dog though.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/06 21:17:10
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2017/11/06 21:20:53
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Norn Queen
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My hypothesis is that the SM Codex was intentionally made bland and underpowered, because people will buy Marines regardless of rules, while making all other factions seem stronger by comparison, thus driving up sales of non-Marines.
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2017/11/06 21:23:04
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Nasty Nob
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I'm not sure the word proof was exactly right here
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ERJAK wrote:
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
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2017/11/06 21:23:07
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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Guilliman and his Assault Cannons seem pretty respectable to me.
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BlaxicanX wrote:A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
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2017/11/06 21:23:41
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Eldarain wrote:Guilliman and his Assault Cannons seem pretty respectable to me.
Every codex release makes it less viable, imo. I've constructed a couple of lists that can smoke it with no special characters by just packing in many, many lascannons.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/06 21:24:16
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2017/11/06 21:30:48
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Martel732 wrote: Eldarain wrote:Guilliman and his Assault Cannons seem pretty respectable to me.
Every codex release makes it less viable, imo. I've constructed a couple of lists that can smoke it with no special characters by just packing in many, many lascannons.
So you can beat a tournament winning list with other units from the same book. So it's an awful codex?
I'm wondering how many unit choices the other books have vs. the Space Marine book, which has so many that it splits them out into FOC sections for point values.
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2017/11/06 21:31:50
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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[DCM]
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Martel732 wrote: Eldarain wrote:Guilliman and his Assault Cannons seem pretty respectable to me.
Every codex release makes it less viable, imo. I've constructed a couple of lists that can smoke it with no special characters by just packing in many, many lascannons.
Please share these lists - thanks!
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2017/11/06 21:32:19
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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If BA can do it, I suspect IG can do it 5 X better.
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2017/11/06 21:35:09
Subject: Re:Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
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Well, if they get rid of Guilliman, Devestator squads, as well as StormRavens, AC Razorbacks and Destructor Predators.
Grey Knights are hands-down a problem in comparative power levels with the released Codex's so far.
Those wallowing in the land of Index are feeling the pinch, so I would not get too upset yet.
I am wanting to look at the Eldar codex a bit closer to see where they wound up in the scheme of things after being one of the top lists for a while.
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A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte |
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2017/11/06 21:35:22
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Eldarain wrote:Guilliman and his Assault Cannons seem pretty respectable to me.
I made a special note on guilliman in the original post. He is wildly better than everything in there and barely makes a competitive army with what he has to buff. I repeat again the question that no one can ever answer. What would be the result if we put Guilliman in the AM codex and he buffed AM catachans like he buffs ultra marines?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/06 21:35:43
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2017/11/06 21:35:40
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Alpharius wrote:Martel732 wrote: Eldarain wrote:Guilliman and his Assault Cannons seem pretty respectable to me.
Every codex release makes it less viable, imo. I've constructed a couple of lists that can smoke it with no special characters by just packing in many, many lascannons.
Please share these lists - thanks!
One has
Captain
Primaris Lieutenant
3 X autolas preds
4 X tac squads w/ lascannon, power weapon
2 X tac squads w/ grav cannon, power weapon
3 X twin las razorbacks
Stormraven, lascannons, typhoon, hurricanes.
Pretty sure this can beat the girlyman list. It loses to lots of other things, though, especially -1 to hit lists. This list was built to fight IG lists, by the way. It just happens to do well vs that Rowboat list, too.
There's probably 20 different ways to do what this list does with IG that's better, though.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/11/06 21:41:21
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2017/11/06 21:37:40
Subject: Re:Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Dakka Veteran
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Talizvar wrote:Well, if they get rid of Guilliman, Devestator squads, as well as StormRavens, AC Razorbacks and Destructor Predators.
Grey Knights are hands-down a problem in comparative power levels with the released Codex's so far.
Those wallowing in the land of Index are feeling the pinch, so I would not get too upset yet.
I am wanting to look at the Eldar codex a bit closer to see where they wound up in the scheme of things after being one of the top lists for a while.
I'm not a huge fan of "must include" types of units within codexes. I would prefer if the power was a lot more evened out in the Marine book. Ontop of units though, some of the chapter tactics are pretty... naff.
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2017/11/06 21:37:48
Subject: Re:Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Talizvar wrote:Well, if they get rid of Guilliman, Devestator squads, as well as StormRavens, AC Razorbacks and Destructor Predators.
Grey Knights are hands-down a problem in comparative power levels with the released Codex's so far.
Those wallowing in the land of Index are feeling the pinch, so I would not get too upset yet.
I am wanting to look at the Eldar codex a bit closer to see where they wound up in the scheme of things after being one of the top lists for a while.
They are in the top again. Comparable power level to AM - though not in a brute force way. They have the tools to win games though.
Also Guilliman is the only unit you need to remove from codex space marines to make it completely nonviable competitively.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/06 21:38:39
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2017/11/06 21:40:51
Subject: Re:Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
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Xenomancers wrote:Also Guilliman is the only unit you need to remove from codex space marines to make it completely nonviable competitively.
Hence the angst of a SM player that has everything VERY Black Templar.
The temptation to be drawn to the "blue-side" is great with that one model.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/06 21:41:06
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte |
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2017/11/06 21:50:04
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Xenomancers wrote: Galef wrote:I still think it's pretty well balanced when you consider how expensive some of the Eldar choices are still.
The "intercept" stratagem is a bit odd though
Also, let me point fix this statement for you:
- ANY raven guard can use the infiltrate just before the beginning of the game stratagem.
- Up to 2 max Eldar craft-world units can use the webway portal
As for "Chapter Tactics" only applying to Infantry and Dreads: Keep in mind that all the CWE traits (except Alaitoc) are very specific and not all that great
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Well Ulthwe for example might not be that great but it's better than the iron hands because it applies to vehicals and artillery as well.
True, but almost all Eldar vehicles have access to Spirit Stones, which give a 6+ FNP that the Ulthwe trait cannot combine with. Unless they have FAQ's it, I believe Iron hands Venerable Dreads have a 3+/6+++/6+++
Kanluwen wrote:Clarification:
Raven Guard one applies strictly to keyword " INFANTRY" units. So while it might allow more than 2 units at a time, it doesn't apply to Bikers or anything else.
The Webway stratagem also only applies to Infantry, soooo....
Of course, we also have the Cloudstrike stratagem that works on vehicles, but you cannot use both stratagems in the same game.
My overall point is that Marines and Eldar are different and have different things, as they should. Marines may have a worse A, but Eldar have a worse B, just as Marines have the best X, while Eldar have the best Y.
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2017/11/06 21:50:23
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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It's hard to take too many complaints about Space Marines seriously. That said, there is some disconnect in the way some things are applied inconsistently across books, such as traits applying to tanks and whatnot. Whether that was intentional or not, who knows, but it also doesnt appear to be crippling for SM's either. If anything id expect Eldar to get nerfed on some of those counts (particularly the fire prism stratagem seeing as how nearly every Eldar army list is autoincluding two).
Lets also take a second and acknowledge that comparing anything to Eldad is always something of a losing battle. They always seem to have powerful buff/faction abilities, exceptions and gimmicks. They are, by far, the single best treated faction in the history of this game, with respect to rules and power at least (not so much models).
But the Marines seem to be doing ok overall, certainly better than GK's and most index lists.
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IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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2017/11/06 21:51:17
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I really like the way Drukhari play compared to marines right now.
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2017/11/06 21:56:07
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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The point i was making is that marines can't deep strike a vehicle with a stratagem - and only raven guard can use special infiltration on an infantry unit.
Any Eldar faction can deep strike any vehicle they want (I think they can do 2 for 3 command points). As well as any 1 or 2 infantry/biker. There is a lot more disparity in the codex too. This isn't just a case of this army does this better but that one does this thing better Automatically Appended Next Post: Martel732 wrote:I really like the way Drukhari play compared to marines right now.
They are much better than marines. A few stratagems, army traits, and points adjustments and they are at AM level.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/06 21:58:41
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2017/11/06 21:59:06
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Dakka Veteran
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Xenomancers wrote:The point i was making is that marines can't deep strike a vehicle with a stratagem - and only raven guard can use special infiltration on an infantry unit.
Any Eldar faction can deep strike any vehicle they want (I think they can do 2 for 3 command points). As well as any 1 or 2 infantry/biker. There is a lot more disparity in the codex too. This isn't just a case of this army does this better but that one does this thing better
You could always run some IG technically. It's a really lame solution, and the ally rules need some serious work, but you could do it and hope Chapter Approved has some small changes. In the meantime, at least your army is still in the top 20% of armies right now. So at least there's that.
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2017/11/06 21:59:58
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I think he's projecting into the future a bit here. The Tyranid codex sounds completely superior to marines and the Eldar codex already is.
Also, I know what the likely BA tactic is, and it's 100% worthless, so put BA down next to GK.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/06 22:02:06
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2017/11/06 22:00:45
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Vaktathi wrote:It's hard to take too many complaints about Space Marines seriously. That said, there is some disconnect in the way some things are applied inconsistently across books, such as traits applying to tanks and whatnot. Whether that was intentional or not, who knows, but it also doesnt appear to be crippling for SM's either. If anything id expect Eldar to get nerfed on some of those counts (particularly the fire prism stratagem seeing as how nearly every Eldar army list is autoincluding two).
Lets also take a second and acknowledge that comparing anything to Eldad is always something of a losing battle. They always seem to have powerful buff/faction abilities, exceptions and gimmicks. They are, by far, the single best treated faction in the history of this game, with respect to rules and power at least (not so much models).
But the Marines seem to be doing ok overall, certainly better than GK's and most index lists.
Because of guilliman - if he actually the primarch of the catachans - they would literally win every game automatically in 1 turn. Automatically Appended Next Post: Martel732 wrote:I think he's projecting into the future a bit here. The Tyranid codex sounds completely superior to marines and the Eldar codex already is.
yeah I am - already know what the tyranid codex has.
You know those guilliman razorbacks that everyone is so hot on? Meet Dakka fex. It does more damage than a guilliman razorback without even being buffed by anything. because it has twice the shots at the same strength. Automatically Appended Next Post: Martel732 wrote:I think he's projecting into the future a bit here. The Tyranid codex sounds completely superior to marines and the Eldar codex already is.
Also, I know what the likely BA tactic is, and it's 100% worthless, so put BA down next to GK.
Because you are space marine - you will have crap rules. That much is a given. However - it appears we are in power creep mode. You might just get lucky!
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/06 22:06:10
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2017/11/06 22:10:00
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
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Clousseau
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FYI Guilliman lists didn't crack the top 5 in the last major tournament in socal. It was won by AM, followed by a couple chaos lists.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/06 22:10:11
Galas wrote:I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote:He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic. |
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