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Hi guys. New to the Seraphon and I've been reading the fluff (I followed the end times fluff closely then sold my Lizardmen when I heard the rumors of AoS/Fantasy being killed). I'm back into AoS now I really, really miss the fantasy game and Lizardmen are still my favourite army of any system ever.

So following the end times - The Lizardmen as a race were all destroyed and the Slann teleported back into the stars. As far as I can tell now - this is where they remain and are working on a overarching grand plan to destroy chaos. When Slann do appear via the stars, normally in a dramatic white light blinding beam teleportation fashion it normally seems "random" to other races but it's actually again part of the "big picture". Slanns have different ideas on how they will vanquish chaos and restore order, but that's what they've ultimately been planning since they were birthed from Dracothian, the great star dragon who breathed life into them.

The Seraphon "army" isn't a real thing in itself, it's a army brought into reality from the Slanns raw magical power and is fueled by Celestial energy (Does Sigmar have any part in this or is it purely willed into existence by the Slanns raw power) and the army are made of celestial power. Once the Slann has decided the objective is completed the Slann return to the stars and the armies they have willed into existence go back into memory / celestial energy to be called upon again?

This is what I've understood so far. Am i off the mark or this is about right?

That is certainly my understanding of it.

The problem with this background is that the Lizardmen now don't do anything but fight, so you loose all the other bits of a society that gives them personality.

This is actually why I went off my Tomb Kings back in fantasy because the only stories that you could tell with them were war stories.

 Kroem wrote:
That is certainly my understanding of it.

The problem with this background is that the Lizardmen now don't do anything but fight, so you loose all the other bits of a society that gives them personality.

This is actually why I went off my Tomb Kings back in fantasy because the only stories that you could tell with them were war stories.

It does seem a bit sad to see the total loss of any sort of culture and hierarchy within the faction. I do love the Slann though, so there is that.

Sadly any old factions in AoS seem to get very little now. E.g. Slayers seem to have nothing whereas the Fyreslayers are what we get now. Which seem to have somewhat dumb lore as far as I can see.

Although you can always make your own lore which is nice.

You have a good grip on the lore, but the last bit is a bit off. A lot of people actually get this wrong and it's more the fault of GW for not presenting it very well. Seraphon are very much real, even if they are formed of Celestial energy. Daemons are real even though they are formed of chaos/warp energy, Seraphon are the same way. Also, though they are brought into existence via a Slann 'remembering' them, it isn't as simple as a recording that plays then goes away.

Say a Slann remembers Biteboys the saurus cohort into existence. The Slann then decides to go fight a battle, so he teleports there and summons Biteboys. He isn't remembering them on the battlefield--he is teleporting them in from the Seraphon star-dwellings where they were waiting (this is the part in the fluff where Seraphon are described as descending in the form of falling stars). Biteboys then run around and kill some stuff and the battle ends. The Slann teleports back, and brings Biteboys with him, and they all live happy lives doing whatever Seraphon do in their off time.

Now the Slann decides to go fight another battle, teleporting in Biteboys again. Only this time the Biteboys get killed. After the battle is done, the Slann goes back to their home in the stars and remembers Biteboys back into existence again. But this isn't the same Biteboys he remembered the first time; the Slann now remembers all the new battles and actions the Biteboys engaged in, so the Biteboys he summons aren't a 'reset' version but the same ones that died. This means that Seraphon characters still gain experience, remember recent conflicts, etc, rather than hollow recordings.

If you want to see some more personal interactions with Seraphon in the fluff I would recommend the Clan Pestilens novel, which has several Seraphon characters interacting with Stormcast both in and out of battle.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

If you want to see some more personal interactions with Seraphon in the fluff I would recommend the Clan Pestilens novel, which has several Seraphon characters interacting with Stormcast both in and out of battle.

Seconded on the Clan Pestilens novel. It really made me kinda like the Seraphon in this setting a bit more, and they didn't feel quite so deus ex machina to me after that one.

As a long term Lizard lover I haven't been able to get behind the new summoned Space Lizard fluff.

Granted the old fluff wasn't exactly dense, at least everything kind of had it's place. Read, for example, an old Lizard army book description of the Kroxigor, it talks about how they're the construction slaves and it makes sense why they're big, brutish, not too intelligent but synergise with Skinks because their role in society is to do what the Skinks tell them to do.

The Kroxigor entry in the Seraphon book just talks about how they're bashy, and there's bigger stronger ones that are even more bashy, and, err, that's about it. Like, the intro is about how they're bashy, first paragraph is about how they're bashy, 2nd paragraph is about how they're used in a bashy role on the battlefield, the third paragraph is how Ancients are even more bashy, the last paragraph is about how Saurus respect them because they're just so bashy.

There's just not depth to it, yeah, I get it, Kroxigor are bashy.

Maybe there's a better description of them somewhere else, I haven't spent a lot of time reading Seraphon fluff, but the reason I haven't is because what I have read isn't interesting or engaging.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You have a good grip on the lore, but the last bit is a bit off. A lot of people actually get this wrong and it's more the fault of GW for not presenting it very well. Seraphon are very much real, even if they are formed of Celestial energy. Daemons are real even though they are formed of chaos/warp energy, Seraphon are the same way. Also, though they are brought into existence via a Slann 'remembering' them, it isn't as simple as a recording that plays then goes away.

Say a Slann remembers Biteboys the saurus cohort into existence. The Slann then decides to go fight a battle, so he teleports there and summons Biteboys. He isn't remembering them on the battlefield--he is teleporting them in from the Seraphon star-dwellings where they were waiting (this is the part in the fluff where Seraphon are described as descending in the form of falling stars). Biteboys then run around and kill some stuff and the battle ends. The Slann teleports back, and brings Biteboys with him, and they all live happy lives doing whatever Seraphon do in their off time.

Now the Slann decides to go fight another battle, teleporting in Biteboys again. Only this time the Biteboys get killed. After the battle is done, the Slann goes back to their home in the stars and remembers Biteboys back into existence again. But this isn't the same Biteboys he remembered the first time; the Slann now remembers all the new battles and actions the Biteboys engaged in, so the Biteboys he summons aren't a 'reset' version but the same ones that died. This means that Seraphon characters still gain experience, remember recent conflicts, etc, rather than hollow recordings.

If you want to see some more personal interactions with Seraphon in the fluff I would recommend the Clan Pestilens novel, which has several Seraphon characters interacting with Stormcast both in and out of battle.

This was really helpful thanks dude. So the Seraphon do exist outside of battles and lives in the stars with the Slann, all be-it formed of celestial energy willed into existence by the Slann's power. Thanks for the recommendation of the novel, I'll have to grab it.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
As a long term Lizard lover I haven't been able to get behind the new summoned Space Lizard fluff.

Granted the old fluff wasn't exactly dense, at least everything kind of had it's place. Read, for example, an old Lizard army book description of the Kroxigor, it talks about how they're the construction slaves and it makes sense why they're big, brutish, not too intelligent but synergise with Skinks because their role in society is to do what the Skinks tell them to do.

The Kroxigor entry in the Seraphon book just talks about how they're bashy, and there's bigger stronger ones that are even more bashy, and, err, that's about it. Like, the intro is about how they're bashy, first paragraph is about how they're bashy, 2nd paragraph is about how they're used in a bashy role on the battlefield, the third paragraph is how Ancients are even more bashy, the last paragraph is about how Saurus respect them because they're just so bashy.

There's just not depth to it, yeah, I get it, Kroxigor are bashy.

Maybe there's a better description of them somewhere else, I haven't spent a lot of time reading Seraphon fluff, but the reason I haven't is because what I have read isn't interesting or engaging.

Honestly speaking, yeah, I think the older fluff had more nuance and was probably better overall (though I could say that about WHFB vs AoS as a whole, come to think of it). It is what it is, and I've learned to like AoS fluff as it's own thing while also liking WHFB as it's own thing. It really is two different settings connected only loosely via the narrative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AaronWilson wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Stuff

This was really helpful thanks dude. So the Seraphon do exist outside of battles and lives in the stars with the Slann, all be-it formed of celestial energy willed into existence by the Slann's power. Thanks for the recommendation of the novel, I'll have to grab it.

Happy to help!

This is some helpful confirmation that Seraphon can be more than "imagined".

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20108367_1822205954692677_313967698634791652_n.jpg?oh=09a1db2a99c8e4dccba1c1cc34a00bfa&oe=5A78F0F3

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You have a good grip on the lore, but the last bit is a bit off. A lot of people actually get this wrong and it's more the fault of GW for not presenting it very well. Seraphon are very much real, even if they are formed of Celestial energy. Daemons are real even though they are formed of chaos/warp energy, Seraphon are the same way. Also, though they are brought into existence via a Slann 'remembering' them, it isn't as simple as a recording that plays then goes away.

Say a Slann remembers Biteboys the saurus cohort into existence. The Slann then decides to go fight a battle, so he teleports there and summons Biteboys. He isn't remembering them on the battlefield--he is teleporting them in from the Seraphon star-dwellings where they were waiting (this is the part in the fluff where Seraphon are described as descending in the form of falling stars). Biteboys then run around and kill some stuff and the battle ends. The Slann teleports back, and brings Biteboys with him, and they all live happy lives doing whatever Seraphon do in their off time.

Now the Slann decides to go fight another battle, teleporting in Biteboys again. Only this time the Biteboys get killed. After the battle is done, the Slann goes back to their home in the stars and remembers Biteboys back into existence again. But this isn't the same Biteboys he remembered the first time; the Slann now remembers all the new battles and actions the Biteboys engaged in, so the Biteboys he summons aren't a 'reset' version but the same ones that died. This means that Seraphon characters still gain experience, remember recent conflicts, etc, rather than hollow recordings.

If you want to see some more personal interactions with Seraphon in the fluff I would recommend the Clan Pestilens novel, which has several Seraphon characters interacting with Stormcast both in and out of battle.

I'm going to have to check out that novel now because that part was the weirdest thing to me about seraphon; I could not get over the whole "star lizard-demon but it looks like a regular old not-aztec lizardman" kinda thing, it felt cheap and lazy and I kept thinking they should look more celestial and less "marking the spawning" old WHFB stuff. The fact that they have memories and such and learn from battles even when they die and aren't just clones is actually pretty interesting and allows for some legit personality.

Wayniac wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You have a good grip on the lore, but the last bit is a bit off. A lot of people actually get this wrong and it's more the fault of GW for not presenting it very well. Seraphon are very much real, even if they are formed of Celestial energy. Daemons are real even though they are formed of chaos/warp energy, Seraphon are the same way. Also, though they are brought into existence via a Slann 'remembering' them, it isn't as simple as a recording that plays then goes away.

Say a Slann remembers Biteboys the saurus cohort into existence. The Slann then decides to go fight a battle, so he teleports there and summons Biteboys. He isn't remembering them on the battlefield--he is teleporting them in from the Seraphon star-dwellings where they were waiting (this is the part in the fluff where Seraphon are described as descending in the form of falling stars). Biteboys then run around and kill some stuff and the battle ends. The Slann teleports back, and brings Biteboys with him, and they all live happy lives doing whatever Seraphon do in their off time.

Now the Slann decides to go fight another battle, teleporting in Biteboys again. Only this time the Biteboys get killed. After the battle is done, the Slann goes back to their home in the stars and remembers Biteboys back into existence again. But this isn't the same Biteboys he remembered the first time; the Slann now remembers all the new battles and actions the Biteboys engaged in, so the Biteboys he summons aren't a 'reset' version but the same ones that died. This means that Seraphon characters still gain experience, remember recent conflicts, etc, rather than hollow recordings.

If you want to see some more personal interactions with Seraphon in the fluff I would recommend the Clan Pestilens novel, which has several Seraphon characters interacting with Stormcast both in and out of battle.

I'm going to have to check out that novel now because that part was the weirdest thing to me about seraphon; I could not get over the whole "star lizard-demon but it looks like a regular old not-aztec lizardman" kinda thing, it felt cheap and lazy and I kept thinking they should look more celestial and less "marking the spawning" old WHFB stuff. The fact that they have memories and such and learn from battles even when they die and aren't just clones is actually pretty interesting and allows for some legit personality.

Plus with time they can go "native" so to speak and they can be inhabitants of cities as well. After seeing these two things the seraphon lore in general got a lot more interesting IMO. Since now they are interacting with everyone in the setting.

That ask Grombrindal tidbit is very interesting, thanks for posting!

While Seraphon as seen on the battlefield are memories, were not the lizardmen themselves one of the few races to actually survive the destruction of the World That Was?

I propose that some actual lizardmen exist, but the Slann have retired them, possibly as a reward for long service and use mental assets instead.

 Orlanth wrote:
While Seraphon as seen on the battlefield are memories, were not the lizardmen themselves one of the few races to actually survive the destruction of the World That Was?

I propose that some actual lizardmen exist, but the Slann have retired them, possibly as a reward for long service and use mental assets instead.

Nope, the Lizardmen were destroyed along with the old world. The Skaven mined through Lustria into chaos, to save them from the moon loaded with warpstone that was going to collide with th old world planet. The Slann went off in there spaceships.