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I know they are heavily implied to be a Raven Guard successor, but it is never RAW confirmed and I think the Blood Angels chapter tactics are more appropriate. Is running them as a Blood Angels successor legal?

Valentine009 wrote:
I know they are heavily implied to be a Raven Guard successor, but it is never RAW confirmed and I think the Blood Angels chapter tactics are more appropriate. Is running them as a Blood Angels successor legal?

If it's not outright stated, then go for it. Unless Forge World comes out and says otherwise, go nuts. Expect the usual crying about "intent" and "RaW loopholes" though.

Sure, why not?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Valentine009 wrote:
I know they are heavily implied to be a Raven Guard successor, but it is never RAW confirmed and I think the Blood Angels chapter tactics are more appropriate. Is running them as a Blood Angels successor legal?

If it's not outright stated, then go for it. Unless Forge World comes out and says otherwise, go nuts. Expect the usual crying about "intent" and "RaW loopholes" though.

I’d agree, you should be able to until FW gives them an official chapter tactic, about the biggest whinge I could imagine would be that Tyberos is not in Codex Blood Angels.

Ulfhednar_42 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Valentine009 wrote:
I know they are heavily implied to be a Raven Guard successor, but it is never RAW confirmed and I think the Blood Angels chapter tactics are more appropriate. Is running them as a Blood Angels successor legal?

If it's not outright stated, then go for it. Unless Forge World comes out and says otherwise, go nuts. Expect the usual crying about "intent" and "RaW loopholes" though.

I’d agree, you should be able to until FW gives them an official chapter tactic, about the biggest whinge I could imagine would be that Tyberos is not in Codex Blood Angels.

He isn't in Codex Space Marines either.

I think the problem is that Tyberos has the Carcharodons keyword, rather than Blood Angels. And in my brief look through the codex everything in there had Blood Angels as the keyword rather than <faction> or something replaceable.

Chrysis wrote:
I think the problem is that Tyberos has the Carcharodons keyword, rather than Blood Angels. And in my brief look through the codex everything in there had Blood Angels as the keyword rather than <faction> or something replaceable.

The rule on Page 74 of the BA codex covers this. It a functionally identical Successor Chapter rule as the Generic SM codex does.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Valentine009 wrote:
I know they are heavily implied to be a Raven Guard successor, but it is never RAW confirmed and I think the Blood Angels chapter tactics are more appropriate. Is running them as a Blood Angels successor legal?

If it's not outright stated, then go for it. Unless Forge World comes out and says otherwise, go nuts. Expect the usual crying about "intent" and "RaW loopholes" though.

Most people simply don't care, dude. Run your army as who you want. ''Twas only you insisting people can't choose the Chapter Tactics they use.

Valentine009 wrote:
I know they are heavily implied to be a Raven Guard successor, but it is never RAW confirmed and I think the Blood Angels chapter tactics are more appropriate. Is running them as a Blood Angels successor legal?

Seeing you can run your ultramarine models as white scars if you want why not here?

tneva82 wrote:

Valentine009 wrote:
I know they are heavily implied to be a Raven Guard successor, but it is never RAW confirmed and I think the Blood Angels chapter tactics are more appropriate. Is running them as a Blood Angels successor legal?

Seeing you can run your ultramarine models as white scars if you want why not here?

There is a massive difference.

You can run your MODELS however you want, however you can't run your dudes as White Scars and have Calgar suddenly buff them. Nor can you run your dudes as GENESIS CHAPTER and use White Scars traits. Furthermore, the rules explicitly forbid you from using anything but the parent chapters trait with actual confirmed successors.

I covered the subtle differences here. I'll edit the example for CARCHARODONS.

Assume that the following take a pure detachment and are selecting the same <CHAPTER> in each case.

If you select RAVEN GUARD, you must use the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic and Stratagems, and have access to the Raven Guard Warlord Trait

If you select RAPTORS, you must use the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic and Stratagems (as they are canonically successor to the Raven Guard), and do not have access to the Raven Guard Warlord Trait

If you select RAPTOORS, you may use any parent legion Chapter Tactic and Stratagems, do not have access to the Raven Guard Warlord Trait and will not benefit from the buffs granted by a Forge World RAPTORS character.

If you select CARCHARODONS, you may use any parent legion Chapter Tactic and Stratagems, do not have access to the Chapter Specific Warlord Traits and will benefit from the buffs granted by a Forge World CARCHARODONScharacter.

And since there doesn't seem to be specific parent legion use white scars in one game, blood angels in next. So what?

tneva82 wrote:
And since there doesn't seem to be specific parent legion use white scars in one game, blood angels in next. So what?

Because if the Spess Sherks were canonically Raven Guard successors, RaW you would be unable to take any trait except the Raven Guard one. The rule is explicitly clear that you must refer to the background fiction.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
And since there doesn't seem to be specific parent legion use white scars in one game, blood angels in next. So what?

Because if the Spess Sherks were canonically Raven Guard successors, RaW you would be unable to take any trait except the Raven Guard one. The rule is explicitly clear that you must refer to the background fiction.

Fluff!=rules. Say that when there's specific rule that says they are raven guard. Not fluff text. If we go by fluff then power armour has 1+ armour save etc with company of marines able to slaughter thousands of enemy without better than small arms without any casualties.

Just change the chapter they are being for that game.
If they are blatantly one chapter and you play them as something else, have a card out in plain view showing their current chapter.

tneva82 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
And since there doesn't seem to be specific parent legion use white scars in one game, blood angels in next. So what?

Because if the Spess Sherks were canonically Raven Guard successors, RaW you would be unable to take any trait except the Raven Guard one. The rule is explicitly clear that you must refer to the background fiction.

Fluff!=rules. Say that when there's specific rule that says they are raven guard. Not fluff text. If we go by fluff then power armour has 1+ armour save etc with company of marines able to slaughter thousands of enemy without better than small arms without any casualties.

Dude, I literally just said the rule explicitly tells you to look at the fluff. No need to be so hostile especially when you are wrong.

Page 195: If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, use the Chapter Tactic of its founding Chapter. [...] If you are unsure of a Chapter’s founding Chapter, either consult the background sections of our books or choose a Tactic from the table that best describes its character and fighting style.

Same thing on page 196 for stratagems. So yeah, in this weird instance, fluff DOES equals rules, because the rules tell us it does. Of course one could argue they do give you a choice, and you can just choose to NOT look up the background and claim ignorance, but that ofc falls apart when your opponent does inform you, thus negating that excuse and making your army list illegal (or at the least less effective).

tneva82 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
And since there doesn't seem to be specific parent legion use white scars in one game, blood angels in next. So what?

Because if the Spess Sherks were canonically Raven Guard successors, RaW you would be unable to take any trait except the Raven Guard one. The rule is explicitly clear that you must refer to the background fiction.

Fluff!=rules. Say that when there's specific rule that says they are raven guard. Not fluff text. If we go by fluff then power armour has 1+ armour save etc with company of marines able to slaughter thousands of enemy without better than small arms without any casualties.

Dude people have had this argument with him before. If you want to fight RAW with RAW, the rule says "If you are unsure of a Chapter's founding Chapter, either consult the background sections of our books or choose a Tactic from the table that best describes its character andfighting style." Note that's an either/or clause. It says you can either consult the fluff OR choose one to suit. So, RAW, it's not as clear-cut as BCB makes out. And it says "if you're unsure" not "if you don't know but some guy on the net says it has been established somewhere in the hundreds of BL novels". So, following the rules, if you yourself are unsure, consult fluff OR choose. RAW.

Funny, I always read the pale-skin, black eyes of Carcharodons as (hinting at possibly) being a loyalist experiment with Night Lord (old, left-over, archived, stolen?) geneseed/genestock, as that seems to be a favourite FW/Cursed Founding/Badab War schtick (Red Scorpions possibly being loyalists from Emperor's Children stock, Minotaurs (before possibly being replaced entirely) possibly being loyalists from World Eater stock, Sons of Antaeus possibly beign loyalists from Death Guard stock, etc.., etc.., etc..).

It is pretty much confirmed indirectly that the Carcharodons are Raven Guard Successors through indirect references in Horus Heresy Book 3 - Extermination and the Carcharodon Novels.

Without getting too much into it, Corax banished the original Terran Raven Guard alongside their original commander Shade Lord Arkas fell. He banished them for being too aggressive, tyrannical and blood thirsty -- they reminded him of his slavers on Deliverance. They were banished to 'the outer dark' in a nomad - predation fleet to patrol for extra-galactic threats.

You never hear from them after the heresy, however the Carcharodons return from the 'outer dark' with very old heresy era equipment, pale features, a battle strategy that involves sudden crippling attacks etc.

In the carcharodons novels they refer to their chief librarian as 'The Pale Nomad' the original Raven Guard legion name before Corax arrived and they refer to some of their members going 'ash blind' which was Corax's name for Moritaets (sp?). Finally they refer to their founder as "the Shade Lord."

So yeah, never outright stated, but LOTS of circumstantial evidence.

Wow. The landscape sure has changed on this one. last month I asked if I could run Gabe and my blood ravens as wolf successors and everyone lost their minds....

 MattKing wrote:
Wow. The landscape sure has changed on this one. last month I asked if I could run Gabe and my blood ravens as wolf successors and everyone lost their minds....

That's because Space Wolves do not follow the rules for normal Space Marines and do not have any Successor Chapter exceptions. If you want Wolfy Wolfs, you are locked into the SPACE WOLF keyword and nothing else. Your Gabe has a set keyword that cannot be changed for Space Wolf. Granted, the Bloody Thieving Magpies are both in and out of universe unknown origin, so you can use the SM codex and pick whatever parent to inherit rules from you want.

You are comparing apples to intercontinental ballistic missiles.

In fluff wolves have several successors. Many widly vary due to the second founding. There were even successor of th 13th until the recent rewrite.

In RAW we're talking about 2 different codex non-compliant chapters with 2 different codicies. What's the difference? Do DA get a pass as well?

In The grand scheme, if you're running counts as then it makes no difference. How many Guard players are justifying their Cadians as other regiments. Keyword application is the only thing that defines your army. Welcome to 8th, where the paints don't matter.

 MattKing wrote:
In fluff wolves have several successors. Many widly vary due to the second founding. There were even successor of th 13th until the recent rewrite.

In RAW we're talking about 2 different codex non-compliant chapters with 2 different codicies. What's the difference? Do DA get a pass as well?

The DA codex will have a Successor Chapter rule like the BA and SM codexes. There is no such provision for Space Wolves, and until we see the codex we don't know for sure.

Wolves have never had any "real" successors outside of a few disbanded 2nd founding chapters. The Geneseed is too unstable. There were some Primaris successors though. And in universe the Space Wolves chapter is all but dead, living on borrowed time after 95% of the native Fenrisian population were culled by the Inquisition following Magnus's attack.

I wouldn't have a problem as a counts as successor but know that you only get access to one relic as a successor. To get all the toys you would need to be BA proper.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
In fluff wolves have several successors. Many widly vary due to the second founding. There were even successor of th 13th until the recent rewrite.

In RAW we're talking about 2 different codex non-compliant chapters with 2 different codicies. What's the difference? Do DA get a pass as well?

The DA codex will have a Successor Chapter rule like the BA and SM codexes. There is no such provision for Space Wolves, and until we see the codex we don't know for sure.

Wolves have never had any "real" successors outside of a few disbanded 2nd founding chapters. The Geneseed is too unstable. There were some Primaris successors though. And in universe the Space Wolves chapter is all but dead, living on borrowed time after 95% of the native Fenrisian population were culled by the Inquisition following Magnus's attack.

Again, this seems like a fluff argument not a RAW argument. The only reason I want to run wolves is so I can kit all my squads with a weird mix of terminators and troops as well as give them unique weapon choices (as in Dawn of war 2).
If you want to run fluffy Blood ravens you have to use a mix of GK, DA, CSM, SM, and W to get all the looney gear and tank choices. Not to mention they're HEAVLY implied to be Thousand sons successors.... Looking at thi,s SW is the closest I'm going to get as long as I exclusively run long fangs, wolf guard, wolf guard termies and dreads.

As far as RAW is concerned though SW is an index army and follows Index rules. While, as you pointed out the index does not specifically mention a wolf successor keyword I am curious what you would rule for the flesh tearers. They are immediately after the blood angels section and are described as a blood angels successor but are not keyword: blood angels. Would you seriously say they could not use blood angels war gear and unique units like Astorath? His whole purpose is to bounce around successor chapters.

The rules are clear on Astorath. He can't replace BLOOD ANGELS with that of a successor chapter.

 MattKing wrote:
Again, this seems like a fluff argument not a RAW argument.

Did you totally ignore the part where I pointed out the rules? The rules that don't permit you to use anything but the SPACE WOLVES keyword on Space Wolves units?

Did you totally ignore the part where I addressed that directly?

 MattKing wrote:
Did you totally ignore the part where I addressed that directly?

And you pointed out a totally different situation. Blood Angels have a rule allowing for Successor Chapters. Page 74 of the codex. Space Wolves do not.

As Ghaz pointed out, Astorath, Dante and any other named character have a locked Chapter.

This has been the case for normal SM codex too. You can't use Gulliman as a WHITESCARS or a BOBBYMANS PONY LEGION.

Though I'd probably make an exception for Bobbyman's Pony Legion.