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I was in the process of making my own little heretic astartes warband where one of the first traitors of the warband was trying to become a minor chaos god. He had set up a cult and slowly recruited more and more human followers so that he could gain his power and eventually find a way to become a minor chaos god. My Question is how long would this actually take? If someone had somehow managed over thousands of years had a billion followers or some rather large number like that I would think becoming a warp entity or having a warp entity created wouldn't actually take that long but I am not certain.

Chaos gods come from the Warp, not the other way around. The chaos demons eat other demons and emotional energy form our world until they become so powerful we call them gods.

I think you will find that you can ascend to a demon prince. I do not know enough about it. And while I do asume you become immortal, all demons are more whims of their aspects instead of real induviduals with agency. Is that correct? Other demons also look down on demon princes I believe. But imortallaty is something at least.

Time in meaningless in the warp, so it would happen instantly and take billions of years, there is one precedent that I can think of for a Deamon King becoming powerful enough to challenge one of the gods, so by extension almost as powerful, it was galled Ghul.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Chaos gods come from the Warp, not the other way around. The chaos demons eat other demons and emotional energy form our world until they become so powerful we call them gods.

If an entity in the materium is worshiped and believed to be a god or a god in the making why wouldn't that overtime produce a warp entity?

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Daemon_Prince

 LuminousOne wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Chaos gods come from the Warp, not the other way around. The chaos demons eat other demons and emotional energy form our world until they become so powerful we call them gods.

If an entity in the materium is worshiped and believed to be a god or a god in the making why wouldn't that overtime produce a warp entity?

It does, but its more complicated than that.

So thought and emotion goes into the warp, they float around and are for all intents and purposes harmless, stronger emotions (fear, hate etc.) absorb weaker ones, kinda like predators, but they dont actually have forms, they are just concepts, so these concepts keep absorbing more and more emotion and concepts etc. and eventually become kind of a vortex, this makes it absorb more and more concepts and emotions, this becomes stronger and stronger and eventually lets the Chaos Gods into the part of the warp that contains the 40k universe (my research shows that the gods are from multiple realities , multiversal), these beings once they enter our reality, they have always been here and have also never existed.

 LuminousOne wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Chaos gods come from the Warp, not the other way around. The chaos demons eat other demons and emotional energy form our world until they become so powerful we call them gods.

If an entity in the materium is worshiped and believed to be a god or a god in the making why wouldn't that overtime produce a warp entity?

This is a bit unclear. A warp entety is a bit vagly defines. Several things resides in the warp. Most notably the enslavers who almost wiped out everything, and responsible for the necrons to take the long nap. The necrons planed to wake up once the enslaver plague was gone. So the enslaver is a warp entety, but not a demon? Other warp enteties also excist to make things more confusing.

I saw some sources that suspected the eldars could manifest warp enteties at will back in the day. I do not have the source. This is certanly not the case these days as the warp enteties that exist are very much sentient and bad news for you, this we know.

Anyway, that is what you are asking. If antity in the materium is woshiped and believed to be a god would that over time produce a warp entety? I supose it is theoretically possible, but I think the goal post is hiegher then your fanfiction backround envisions. The emperor for instance is not a warp entety, and he is considered the most worhsiped thing in the 40K known galaxy. It would be hard pressed to be worshipped more then that. The emperor is keeping it together with his psyonic might, and possible worship. Does that constetute him to be a god? Mayby, but he is not a warp entety.

Also, your definision is a god might be a bit vague. What is a god? Any academical discussion has to start with the defenitions. Clearly the enslavers who excists as warp enteties are not gods. Being an aetheist IRL I am hard pressed to call anything a god (heathen scandinavia and all that). But from a pragmatical standpoint you can the chaos gods for gods. They are very powerfull, they have beings under them that do their will in the form of lesser beings, and they are worshiped in the form of cults and chaos marines. To save time in everyday conversation it would be easy to call them a god. In that aspect I suspect the emperor of mankind is also a god.

But these chaos gods have not apeared because they are worshipped. They have apeared as the immaterium that mirrors the realspace universe has seen some patterns. Apparantly the 4 constants that always excist is entropy (nurgle), anger (khorn), change (thzeentch). While lust probably does not excist on a large enough scale these days, the eldars where responsible for fornicating all over the galaxy for ten millenia and thus birthed slaneesh. But mind you, these are constants in the universe, not worshiped gods. Or at least it was not worship that spawned them.

It is unclear how much raw energy would remain for your home made god, but it would be better to have them worship a demon and hope it is a god, or for them to try to ascent to a demon prince.

How long is a piece of string?

Ascension to daemonhood takes as long as it takes - time is immaterial in the warp ...

 chromedog wrote:
How long is a piece of string?

Ascension to daemonhood takes as long as it takes - time is immaterial in the warp ...

To be fair to the original poster, this metaphor does not really work. Either it refers to string theory where it does not really make sence, or you can measure it in meters and feets. Wheras become is chaos god seems a bit impossible.

To give the OP a little bit of help, The leader of his band of heretic Astartes can never (In a practical sense) become a chaos god. However, a Chaos god granting said leader the ascension into a daemon prince could be viewed by the leader as a genuine ascension to godhood in his own eyes and would flout it as such. Time-wise varies but it will depend on what he does to achieve his ascension and which patron bestows it upon him.

Tristanleo wrote:
To give the OP a little bit of help, The leader of his band of heretic Astartes can never (In a practical sense) become a chaos god. However, a Chaos god granting said leader the ascension into a daemon prince could be viewed by the leader as a genuine ascension to godhood in his own eyes and would flout it as such. Time-wise varies but it will depend on what he does to achieve his ascension and which patron bestows it upon him.

yep basically this, but I do wonder just how much of a presence an undivided DP has, are they also capable of absorbing the other emotions and concepts (I.E war against the gods), if so, then theoretically they can become powerful enough given time to rival the gods, as we saw with Ghul.

On the opposite side, if you want to know how long it actually takes for a species as a whole to birth a new warp-god from their collective psychic eminations, the Eldar first started their descent into decadence in M18. Worship of their existing gods began to decline in M19. Slaanesh first began to stir within the warp in M25, amd was finally birthed as a fully-fledged warp-god in M31.

So, that's a timescale of roughly 13,000 years of gradual descent into wanton hedonism by a supremely psychic race with a sizeable galactic population that resulted in the birth of a fully-fledged god.

In other words, a really, really long time.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
On the opposite side, if you want to know how long it actually takes for a species as a whole to birth a new warp-god from their collective psychic eminations, the Eldar first started their descent into decadence in M18. Worship of their existing gods began to decline in M19. Slaanesh first began to stir within the warp in M25, amd was finally birthed as a fully-fledged warp-god in M31.

So, that's a timescale of roughly 13,000 years of gradual descent into wanton hedonism by a supremely psychic race with a sizeable galactic population that resulted in the birth of a fully-fledged god.

In other words, a really, really long time.

Totally true and totally false haha, got to love the warp, once slaanesh was born in m31, it had existed in universe forever, so it could easily be the very thing that caused its own birth into our part of the warp which is also totally true and completely false

We'll find out once the Tau give birth to the Chaos God of Greater Good.

Tristanleo wrote:
To give the OP a little bit of help, The leader of his band of heretic Astartes can never (In a practical sense) become a chaos god. However, a Chaos god granting said leader the ascension into a daemon prince could be viewed by the leader as a genuine ascension to godhood in his own eyes and would flout it as such. Time-wise varies but it will depend on what he does to achieve his ascension and which patron bestows it upon him.

That would honestly be pretty funny as a tzeench ploy

he thinks hes a god but he isnt.

So I have been trawling though my liber chaotica books, slaves to darkness etc. etc. and I have come to this conclusion

Any Deamon can become equal to or as powerful as the big 4, but not a deamon of the big 4 since the deamons are just a part of them given form, to use a good star trek quote

The ocean becomes the drop
The Drop becomes the ocean

This is referring to the great link from the changelings, when in the link they are all of one mind and no body, but when one breaks away it becomes a distinct individual, until it is later absorbed, as Deamons are part of the greater god broken off, they are the drop, distinct individuals with motives linked to the greater gods, but can still be reabsorbed.

But just as the Gods themselves became more powerful, it is possible for a lesser deamon to gain the same power the same way, if not directly stopped by the gods (has happened before), metaphorically all the gods have crossovers in the emotions and concepts they prey upon and fight over these constantly (we interpret it as war in the garden of nurgle for example).

Now here is the problem I found with Deamon Princes that were mortal, every time the God gives the mortal a "gift" it is sharing its power with them, replacing parts of there souls with deamonic power that manifests in all kinds of craziness, if that mortal then becomes a DP with the help of the god, its soul is completely consumed by this power and the poor sod basically becomes another aspect of the God, the drop and not the ocean, as such it cannot possibly become a god of any of the aspects the big 4 represent, because it no longer has true free will and is a slave, it may not even realise it and think of itself as blessed, because that is what the gods want.

As for undivided DP, thats a different conversation.

 Desubot wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:
To give the OP a little bit of help, The leader of his band of heretic Astartes can never (In a practical sense) become a chaos god. However, a Chaos god granting said leader the ascension into a daemon prince could be viewed by the leader as a genuine ascension to godhood in his own eyes and would flout it as such. Time-wise varies but it will depend on what he does to achieve his ascension and which patron bestows it upon him.

That would honestly be pretty funny as a tzeench ploy

he thinks hes a god but he isnt.

You know who that reminds me of:

I think most importantly, even if a person gained a giant cult following and was worshipped to such an extent that that faith and worship manifested in the warp as a minor or major warp entity that new warp entity would be a manifestation of the peoples faith and not actually an extension of the original individual (though the entity may believe itself to be otherwise).

Consider the masses that have fanatical faith in the Emperor. And yet, he hasn't actually manifested in the warp. If he actually died all that Faith MIGHT manifest as some kind of crazy fascist warp god of order. But that wouldn't actually be the entity that was the emperor. It would be the reflection of the faith in the emperor, the fear and structure and horribleness that is the imperium made manifest as a sentient separate being.

It would take a lot of time and dedication... something that chaos doesn't really do.

The four most well known chaos "gods" became so powerful because they apparently aren't about dedication but accidental lapses and basic flaws that mortals exhibit.

Of course, all of that pales in comparison to the might of The Imperium.

 Niiai wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
How long is a piece of string?

Ascension to daemonhood takes as long as it takes - time is immaterial in the warp ...

To be fair to the original poster, this metaphor does not really work. Either it refers to string theory where it does not really make sence, or you can measure it in meters and feets. Wheras become is chaos god seems a bit impossible.

You're dyslexic and english probably also isn't your first language, so I'll cut you some slack - it's NOT a metaphor. I was not referring to string theory or as a simple measuring issue. There IS a small pun hidden in it, though (The warp, aka the empyrean or the "immaterium" - time is shown to be a rather "fluid" concept within its confines, so rather immaterial in effect.)

It's a rhetorical question. Like "How stupid can people get?" (do not ask this question, they tend to treat it as a personal challenge to lower the bar further and it's already a trip hazard.)
"How long does it take to become a god?" is a rhetorical question.

Nobody knows. Nobody CAN know. That's kind of the point. It's a concept outside of our minor frame of reference. Gods tend to be those things that "have always been there" - they rely more on belief than stated facts.

Gods (if you believe in them) tend to exist outside of the meagre eleven dimensions of time and/or space. Time is immaterial to them. "Time" as we know it is a linear concept.
When you live outside of this paradigm, beginning and end are irrelevant concepts to you. "I have always been here."
To "know" god, is to impose limits upon the limitless. It's also a study in hubris.

 chromedog wrote:

 Niiai wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
How long is a piece of string?

Ascension to daemonhood takes as long as it takes - time is immaterial in the warp ...

To be fair to the original poster, this metaphor does not really work. Either it refers to string theory where it does not really make sence, or you can measure it in meters and feets. Wheras become is chaos god seems a bit impossible.

You're dyslexic and english probably also isn't your first language, so I'll cut you some slack - it's NOT a metaphor. I was not referring to string theory or as a simple measuring issue. There IS a small pun hidden in it, though (The warp, aka the empyrean or the "immaterium" - time is shown to be a rather "fluid" concept within its confines, so rather immaterial in effect.)

It's a rhetorical question. Like "How stupid can people get?" (do not ask this question, they tend to treat it as a personal challenge to lower the bar further and it's already a trip hazard.)
"How long does it take to become a god?" is a rhetorical question.

Nobody knows. Nobody CAN know. That's kind of the point. It's a concept outside of our minor frame of reference. Gods tend to be those things that "have always been there" - they rely more on belief than stated facts.

Gods (if you believe in them) tend to exist outside of the meagre eleven dimensions of time and/or space. Time is immaterial to them. "Time" as we know it is a linear concept.
When you live outside of this paradigm, beginning and end are irrelevant concepts to you. "I have always been here."
To "know" god, is to impose limits upon the limitless. It's also a study in hubris.

Huh? Right. That does explain some things.

It is a known fact within the Imperium that the chaos "gods" have been around since about earth's (terra's) medieval time.

Which means that they are merely extradimensional rulers and they can be killed with power sword and Shadowsword.

 RedCommander wrote:

 chromedog wrote:

 Niiai wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
How long is a piece of string?

Ascension to daemonhood takes as long as it takes - time is immaterial in the warp ...

To be fair to the original poster, this metaphor does not really work. Either it refers to string theory where it does not really make sence, or you can measure it in meters and feets. Wheras become is chaos god seems a bit impossible.

You're dyslexic and english probably also isn't your first language, so I'll cut you some slack - it's NOT a metaphor. I was not referring to string theory or as a simple measuring issue. There IS a small pun hidden in it, though (The warp, aka the empyrean or the "immaterium" - time is shown to be a rather "fluid" concept within its confines, so rather immaterial in effect.)

It's a rhetorical question. Like "How stupid can people get?" (do not ask this question, they tend to treat it as a personal challenge to lower the bar further and it's already a trip hazard.)
"How long does it take to become a god?" is a rhetorical question.

Nobody knows. Nobody CAN know. That's kind of the point. It's a concept outside of our minor frame of reference. Gods tend to be those things that "have always been there" - they rely more on belief than stated facts.

Gods (if you believe in them) tend to exist outside of the meagre eleven dimensions of time and/or space. Time is immaterial to them. "Time" as we know it is a linear concept.
When you live outside of this paradigm, beginning and end are irrelevant concepts to you. "I have always been here."
To "know" god, is to impose limits upon the limitless. It's also a study in hubris.

Huh? Right. That does explain some things.

It is a known fact within the Imperium that the chaos "gods" have been around since about earth's (terra's) medieval time.

Which means that they are merely extradimensional rulers and they can be killed with power sword and Shadowsword.

It's not a known fact sadly, it's not even true, as I explained before once the gods existed they had always existed in the 40k universe, they just started to meddle around that time, remember these things are not confined to the 40k dimension, but are linked to every dimension, so killing a part of it in 40k would have no effect on them at all, they have intimate feeding grounds and due to the nature of the warp, are also infinite, to be fair the chaos gods are quite a complicated subject.

 RedCommander wrote:

 chromedog wrote:

 Niiai wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
How long is a piece of string?

Ascension to daemonhood takes as long as it takes - time is immaterial in the warp ...

To be fair to the original poster, this metaphor does not really work. Either it refers to string theory where it does not really make sence, or you can measure it in meters and feets. Wheras become is chaos god seems a bit impossible.

You're dyslexic and english probably also isn't your first language, so I'll cut you some slack - it's NOT a metaphor. I was not referring to string theory or as a simple measuring issue. There IS a small pun hidden in it, though (The warp, aka the empyrean or the "immaterium" - time is shown to be a rather "fluid" concept within its confines, so rather immaterial in effect.)

It's a rhetorical question. Like "How stupid can people get?" (do not ask this question, they tend to treat it as a personal challenge to lower the bar further and it's already a trip hazard.)
"How long does it take to become a god?" is a rhetorical question.

Nobody knows. Nobody CAN know. That's kind of the point. It's a concept outside of our minor frame of reference. Gods tend to be those things that "have always been there" - they rely more on belief than stated facts.

Gods (if you believe in them) tend to exist outside of the meagre eleven dimensions of time and/or space. Time is immaterial to them. "Time" as we know it is a linear concept.
When you live outside of this paradigm, beginning and end are irrelevant concepts to you. "I have always been here."
To "know" god, is to impose limits upon the limitless. It's also a study in hubris.

Huh? Right. That does explain some things.

It is a known fact within the Imperium that the chaos "gods" have been around since about earth's (terra's) medieval time.

Which means that they are merely extradimensional rulers and they can be killed with power sword and Shadowsword.

Firstly, this fact is not known in the Imperium. In the Imperium they don't even know that Terra ever had a medieval period many millennia ago. Likely by the time of 40k there have been tons of medieval periods in Terran history. It is a fact that is just known to us, the players. Not to people within the Imperium.
And secondly, the Chaos gods exist beyond time. So even though they formed in the Middle Ages, once they formed they already existed forever. And no, you can not kill a god. I don't think even Imperial propaganda would go so far as to claim that (in fact, Imperial propaganda would avoid any mention of the Chaos gods as much as possible).

One could, theoretically, become a Chaos god in your own right if enough people start believing in you. Generally you'd want to have ascended to being a Daemon Prince prior to this occurring as you could direct their worship of you. The chaos gods had to form without guidance. Chaos is itself the amalgamation of aeons of mortal emotions and thoughts coalescing in the Warp and gaining sentience. So it's dependent on the input of mortal beings. Theoretically an ascended mortal could become a god if enough people start believing in him. He would be empowered by their devotion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 RedCommander wrote:

 chromedog wrote:

 Niiai wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
How long is a piece of string?

Ascension to daemonhood takes as long as it takes - time is immaterial in the warp ...

To be fair to the original poster, this metaphor does not really work. Either it refers to string theory where it does not really make sence, or you can measure it in meters and feets. Wheras become is chaos god seems a bit impossible.

You're dyslexic and english probably also isn't your first language, so I'll cut you some slack - it's NOT a metaphor. I was not referring to string theory or as a simple measuring issue. There IS a small pun hidden in it, though (The warp, aka the empyrean or the "immaterium" - time is shown to be a rather "fluid" concept within its confines, so rather immaterial in effect.)

It's a rhetorical question. Like "How stupid can people get?" (do not ask this question, they tend to treat it as a personal challenge to lower the bar further and it's already a trip hazard.)
"How long does it take to become a god?" is a rhetorical question.

Nobody knows. Nobody CAN know. That's kind of the point. It's a concept outside of our minor frame of reference. Gods tend to be those things that "have always been there" - they rely more on belief than stated facts.

Gods (if you believe in them) tend to exist outside of the meagre eleven dimensions of time and/or space. Time is immaterial to them. "Time" as we know it is a linear concept.
When you live outside of this paradigm, beginning and end are irrelevant concepts to you. "I have always been here."
To "know" god, is to impose limits upon the limitless. It's also a study in hubris.

Huh? Right. That does explain some things.

It is a known fact within the Imperium that the chaos "gods" have been around since about earth's (terra's) medieval time.

Which means that they are merely extradimensional rulers and they can be killed with power sword and Shadowsword.

Firstly, this fact is not known in the Imperium. In the Imperium they don't even know that Terra ever had a medieval period many millennia ago. Likely by the time of 40k there have been tons of medieval periods in Terran history. It is a fact that is just known to us, the players. Not to people within the Imperium.
And secondly, the Chaos gods exist beyond time. So even though they formed in the Middle Ages, once they formed they already existed forever. And no, you can not kill a god. I don't think even Imperial propaganda would go so far as to claim that (in fact, Imperial propaganda would avoid any mention of the Chaos gods as much as possible).

Indeed. Chaos's very existence is on a "need to know" basis within the Imperium. The general populace isn't even aware of traitor space marines. They just know there are enemies, traitors, and heretics besetting the Imperium from without and within. Simply knowing that Chaos exists can itself cause heresy to spring up, so it is kept hushed up for the most part.

 chromedog wrote:

 Niiai wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
How long is a piece of string?

Ascension to daemonhood takes as long as it takes - time is immaterial in the warp ...

To be fair to the original poster, this metaphor does not really work. Either it refers to string theory where it does not really make sence, or you can measure it in meters and feets. Wheras become is chaos god seems a bit impossible.

You're dyslexic and english probably also isn't your first language, so I'll cut you some slack - it's NOT a metaphor. I was not referring to string theory or as a simple measuring issue. There IS a small pun hidden in it, though (The warp, aka the empyrean or the "immaterium" - time is shown to be a rather "fluid" concept within its confines, so rather immaterial in effect.)

It's a rhetorical question. Like "How stupid can people get?" (do not ask this question, they tend to treat it as a personal challenge to lower the bar further and it's already a trip hazard.)
"How long does it take to become a god?" is a rhetorical question.

Nobody knows. Nobody CAN know. That's kind of the point. It's a concept outside of our minor frame of reference. Gods tend to be those things that "have always been there" - they rely more on belief than stated facts.

Gods (if you believe in them) tend to exist outside of the meagre eleven dimensions of time and/or space. Time is immaterial to them. "Time" as we know it is a linear concept.
When you live outside of this paradigm, beginning and end are irrelevant concepts to you. "I have always been here."
To "know" god, is to impose limits upon the limitless. It's also a study in hubris.

The piece of string does stil not work well as a methaphore for my Norwegian airs.

Also your claims about gods are quite wrong. It sounds like you are quoting some fanatic doctrine. Most religions gods are quite killable. And quite knowable. Norse, greek, roman, inuit, native american, african, etc With phanteons varieing so widly I would not project any eartly doctrine onto the fictional 4k. Any facts about the gods have to come from within the universe. In sole religions you can become a god. Something sililar can happen in 40k, it should be measurable. The emperor is a god, but not in thr way the original poster asked.

As for time being time, or time being linear. Time is subjective, the faster you travel to the speed of light the less time passes. We also know time travel is possible in 40k. I would claim that time is hardly linear irl, but it definetivly is not linear in 40k. Although for the sake of sanety for the setting it has not been explored properly.

The faster you get to the speed of light, the same amount of time passes, for you, it's relative like you say, but there is no time in the warp niiai, natural law does not exist there.

So when you ask "how long" well, 10 years? 500 billion years? Till the heat death of the universe?

"There is no time in the warp." What does that even mean?

Does it mean nothing happens there? Everything that ever happens there happend at once at all times? Does it mean your wristwatch stops working? Do everyone who passes through the warp have no recolection of it because no time passes?

If you wanne look closer on it time does not even excist. It is just a concept humans have made up because it is convinient for us. Also psycologsts have pointed to parts of our brain that experience what we call time. It is an entierly abstract thing to measure increasing entropy.

"There is no time in the warp." That is just sloppy language to explain something complex we do not understand. And I do not believe it to be true for one second, even within the fictional universe of 40k. You can say the imperium has a poor understanding of the imaterium, but for time to not excist is absurd.

When it comes topic's about within the warp such as the gestation and birth of a new god, the answer is ultimately; it happens now, in the past, and in the future all simultaneously.

"It's complicated timey-wimey stuff." The Doctor

Edit add: as to the post above. Our perception of what we call time does more then measure entrophy, heck it even more then just a scale to measure the cause and effect of events in relation to each other, it provides a very simple medium our brains use and translates into the 3D objects we view with our eyes. The time it takes for light to reach our eyes reflected from the back of the object viewed is longer the the light reflecting from the front of said object. Our eyes translates that time difference into depth.

The immaterium is a dimension that does not follow our rules of physics. It is more than possible for time as we know it not to exist at all, or exist in a form that is completely unrecognisible.

You could theoretically turn yourself into a chaos god by getting billions upon billions of people to believe in you. In essence that's what the Emperor is on the way to doing. However, is this new warp entity really you? Is it just a reflection of people's belief of you? Does their belief warp you into what they believe you to be, or does their belief spawn a wholly different entity while you just wander off the mortal coil?

It's the same conundrum with becoming a daemon prince. Is it really you, or are you simply replaced with a changeling that believes it's you? If you are replaced with something that thinks it's you do you even care? You die anyway but this belief that you still exist is immortal. Either that,or is it even more sinister and you get replaced by a daemon that simply pretends it's you, walking around in your skin-suit tricking all of the other mortals into sacrificing their souls on the fool's errand for immortality?