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It seems that the fluff of Ullanor and how Orks were prior to the Horus Heresy is very sparse. Anyone know how Orks have changed since those fabled times? The only thing I can point to off hand is that Orks used to be a lot bigger. Similar to how the Beast Arises has Prime-Orks it seems like the Warbosses back then were incredibly large.

The only constant in the universe is Orks.

There isn't really anything new (or old) about larger-than-normal Orks; take a look at Charadon, read up a bit on that Ork empire, the one that basically destroyed the Crimson Fists' homeworld. The "Boyz" there were said to be larger than "Nobz" in other regions of space, for all the constant infighting done on that planet, breeding Orks of greater and greater stature and strength.

You could go back to the age of the Brainboyz and all of that, but Orks are Orks are Orks are [Kr]Orks! In a way, just as they are the most constant race across space, so too are they the most constant across time.

Ullanor was just another case in a long ongoing pattern. Sometimes Waaaaagh''s don't get nipped fast enough or it occurs in a fortuitous (for the orks) location where such a Waaaaagh runs unchecked with lots of fighting to fuel the whole thing. Things can get pretty spectacular in such cases; orks get huge, smart, organized and very high tech on a seemingly apocalyptic scale.

In the time since the Imperium was created there was two such events (Might have been more on far side of galaxy with other aliens and themselves). Ullanor and The Beast. Ghazzy seemed on his way to making it happen again. He was dreadnought size by the end of Armaggedon 3, should've gotten bigger after Octaria and soloing a Mawloc. If he's still alive then he's much older and would have to be much bigger. My prediction was that after Octaria he would go and unite the massive ork empires 'north ' of where the eye of terror was. If he doesn't eventually another will.

the change wasn't in the Orks since Ullanor. the change was in the Imperium after the war of the beast. with the founding of the Deathwatch, etc, the IoM got a lot smarter about Orks. we don't see Ullanors or the Beasts so much anymore because now the IoM snuffs Ork warbosses out before it gets that bad.

Orks if left long ernough will eventually form such a force, there tech, tactics and general ability to operate as a almost regular army grows.

Beast level Orks are exceedingly rare however and very very few ever get to that degree. It seems also new class develop later on, a diplomatic ork is formed by the largest wargh ever.

There intelligence and capacity for combat is greatly enhanced by a massive gathering.

Now the impirum especially, does know that and will aim to prevent such a ork rising. The only one close in 8000 years was and is Gazzy.

And he not yet on beast level. Given Orks near immortality, a beast ork could be a age considered impossible for Orks and centuries old to grow to such a size and intelligence.

Yep even in some novels the Eldar refer to the Orks as something you don't face straight into War as that just empowers them even more.

Well 10k yrs of the Imperium isnt a very big slice of time for a plant life that's been spreading since the War in Heaven. Only the Eldar may have a clue how insane things can get when it comes to Ork potential rising unchecked. I agree that the Imperium has gotten smarter with orks and monitor populations where possible to identify potential warbosses on the rise. I don't doubt the eldar have been wise about this in their continued history with orks. I remind you that this history millions upon millions of yrs long and the orks still keep rising up in great big Waaaaaagh!''s. There's too much of the milky way in control of orks and somewhere deep in the thick of it could be a rising warbosses bashing 'eads and showing wot''s wot (which currently is/was Ghazzy, depending on fluff update for last few centuries - orks don't die of old age).

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Well 10k yrs of the Imperium isnt a very big slice of time for a plant life that's been spreading since the War in Heaven. Only the Eldar may have a clue how insane things can get when it comes to Ork potential rising unchecked. I agree that the Imperium has gotten smarter with orks and monitor populations where possible to identify potential warbosses on the rise. I don't doubt the eldar have been wise about this in their continued history with orks. I remind you that this history millions upon millions of yrs long and the orks still keep rising up in great big Waaaaaagh!''s. There's too much of the milky way in control of orks and somewhere deep in the thick of it could be a rising warbosses bashing 'eads and showing wot''s wot (which currently is/was Ghazzy, depending on fluff update for last few centuries - orks don't die of old age).

aye, there almost immortal, i mean maybe they die after a certain point but no ork has ever managed to live that long so...
SHort of a Hurd crusade passing by and seeing what happens to a ork after a few thousan years

Where are people getting the information about Orks being immortal from?

In 'Waargh Da Orks' it says that old Orks become the runtheards and pass on stories to the Yoofs and in the recent Waargh Gahzgull supplement it describes one of the Snakebite Warbosses as 'wiley and old' so they obviously age.

 Kroem wrote:
Where are people getting the information about Orks being immortal from?

In 'Waargh Da Orks' it says that old Orks become the runtheards and pass on stories to the Yoofs and in the recent Waargh Gahzgull supplement it describes one of the Snakebite Warbosses as 'wiley and old' so they obviously age.

But do they age? Generally it seems especially in newer fluff that as ork gets older he gets more powerful. So getting old doesn't neccessarily mean they might die out of old age. With regenerative ability far beyond humans...

Interesting question though mostly theoretical as not many orks gets to live that long. Ghazkhull is probably one of the oldest orks in present time and that's like 100 years + whatever 8th ed timejump was.

Ah I see what you are saying. Calling a human old implies he is weak or enfeebled, whereas calling an Ork old might not have the same connotations.
I don't think that Warbosses are more powerful only by virtue of getting older though i.e. a Warboss isn't just the oldest Ork in the tribe

When Orks have the ambition to challenge their betters that triggers their bodies to gain muscle mass, this happened in one of the short stories in the 3rd edition Ork codex.
So it occurs to me that perhaps the Orks are biologically designed so that those capable of leadership are given the brawn to seize control.
That would explain why those great leaders of Orks, the Nelsons and Wellingtons of their kind, are so bloody huge!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To answer the OP question;

I think that the Orks didn't have clans before the War of the Beast. I've seen speculation that the 6 clans descend from the 6 imitation legions commanded by the Prime-Orks in this war.

Runtherder is a form of oddboy that are born with a natural inclination for slavery. Not just snots and grots but any captured aliens as well. Warbosses come from the general stock of Boyz. It's not aging that made them bigger it's winning fights while still alive. Since orks fight all the time it's natural that those who live long are ones that keep winning fights and are bigger then the rest. An ork that is captured and kept from fighting will devolve and wither away as though it starved to death. They don't just fight for fun, they need to fight just as we need to eat, a built in reward system for fighting is designed into them making them all happy when Krumping just as we feel pleasure in eating. Humans have 2 adolescent periods of growth in our infancy and as teenagers after that no more. Irks keep triggring adolescence every time they win a fight/battle with no limit (short of death) to how often this can occur.

Yeah I suppose it's less that an ork gets more powerful as they get older, more like in order to live that long they have to be pretty damn good at fighting (and lucky) so the older ones are necessarily ones that have survived years and years of brutal conflict.

Technically, orks haven't really changed in potentially millions of years.

That being said, if anything, I would argue that ork technology has degraded nearly as badly as the imperium since ullanor.

I mean, the battle for ullanor required the strength of most of the marine chapters at the height of their power, led by multiple primarchs, in addition to the big E himself.

I'm not certain if that show of force was just massive overkill or not, but if not, it's kind of hard to imagine a present-day ork force that could have reasonably challenged that.

Then there was the whole 'beast arises' story, where they basically had multiple grav-based death stars, wiped out the imperial fists chapter except for a single marine in their initial assault, and laid siege to terra itself.

Present-day orks couldn't even conquer Armageddon.

I mean, all 3 of those examples are ork failures, but the first two imply much more impressive struggles than the last.

Ghaz has tellyporta tek, which is pretty fancy, but again, orks of the past could tellyport a planet-sized battle station across the galaxy, and then use a grav whip to crush other planets like a beer can.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Technically, orks haven't really changed in potentially millions of years.

That being said, if anything, I would argue that ork technology has degraded nearly as badly as the imperium since ullanor.

I mean, the battle for ullanor required the strength of most of the marine chapters at the height of their power, led by multiple primarchs, in addition to the big E himself.

I'm not certain if that show of force was just massive overkill or not, but if not, it's kind of hard to imagine a present-day ork force that could have reasonably challenged that.

Then there was the whole 'beast arises' story, where they basically had multiple grav-based death stars, wiped out the imperial fists chapter except for a single marine in their initial assault, and laid siege to terra itself.

Present-day orks couldn't even conquer Armageddon.

I mean, all 3 of those examples are ork failures, but the first two imply much more impressive struggles than the last.

Ghaz has tellyporta tek, which is pretty fancy, but again, orks of the past could tellyport a planet-sized battle station across the galaxy, and then use a grav whip to crush other planets like a beer can.

Ork tech is innate to them afaik, so I don't think Ork tech could degrade. A more plausible explanation I think is that after the experiences of Ullanor and the Beast, the Imperium has become a lot more active about culling Ork WAAAGH!!!s before they grow to that level.

Wasn't the entire point of the Ullanor campaign to not only "reset" Orks back to their most basic, primitive state, but to also educate humanity exactly how to deal with them so they never become such a threat again?

The answer to this question is - Orks haven't changed AT ALL since Ullanor. If Orks are left unchecked, as they were then, they would rise to the same level - both technologically and socially, and would likely wipe out humanity (along with a few other races). Which is exactly why the Imperium actively squashes Ork warbosses when they get the chance (well they're supposed to at least) as well as a few other races that actively "cull" Orks.

Every Ork codex says the same thing in it's preface - if Orks were ever to truly unite they would destroy all other races and leave the galaxy in a state of continuous war. What's the first thing every Warboss ever tries to do as soon as he has got control of a Klan? Take over the other Klans, unify. Once he has taken over a planet? Move on to another, rinse and repeat.

Orks are continuously, relentlessly moving towards their "Ullanor" or "Beast" stage or whatever else we want to call it. The main differences between the Orks of Ullanor and those of WAAAGH Beast were that the Ullanor Orks were led by a Grand Mek while the Beast Orks were led by a Grand Warboss. So the Ullanor Orks were more technologically advanced and utilised cyborks much more while the Beast Orks were massive, towering mountains of muscle with a little less technological prowess.

IIRC doesn't an Eldar in the Beast series mention they had an Eldar version of the Beast back when they had an Empire? So Orks have turned into a weird test for civilisations wanting to take the galaxy?

It's probably inadvertent but ultimately probably true that they will test civilisations. This is a built in design. They were designed for war when the Old Ones were battling the C'tan and Necrontyr for supremacy/existence in the galaxy. The fungus that produces the psychic sensitive, war like, orkoid species is an intentional doomsday device unleashed upon the Necrontyr empire. Everything got so meased up that the Old Ones died off or went extinct, C'tan became pokemon, Necrons went into hibernation, most races died from the warp born enslave plague, but both the Eldar and Orks survived whatever made the Necrons hide. Any new civilisation trying it's first step into the stars since then inevitably met Elder and Ork's. Which one would most likely fight at first opportunity fir the lulz is an easy guess.

I also want to mention that despite not being the size of the Beast or the Orks of Ullanor himself, Ghazzy pulled together a force big enough that the sheer amount of space vessels and ground troops that the Imperium commited to stopping the Orks from going any further then Armageddon exceeded the forces used by the Imperium in any single engagement prior in its history. Thus means more then the individual clashes with The Beast forces, more then Ullanor and yeah HH Terra invasion.

This may be more due to Ghazzy puposely giving the Imperium a 57 year forewarning to be ready and the Imperium knowing at this time that these Waaaaaaghs have to be checked one way or another. Still the sheer amount of irks constantly pouring was still more the the Imperium huge preparations can handle and every Imperium world within 1000 light yrs got conscripted into the fight to even things up. Yet still it wasn't looking enough but it stalled the invasion long enough for the Season of Fire cycle to kick up and end the fighting. Orks got bored and even though they control half the planet and the other half is so war torn as to be considered lost; the Imperium does get the credit for halting that specifiction Waaaagh event from getting too insane. They missed Ghazzy, however, and he rebuilt a new Waaaagh in short order to crush the Nids at Octaria with complete success. Now it's up to new fluff to reveal if they killed him off in another event or if he's still alive and kicking. If he's not dead then he's well prepped up to be the next Beast that comes back from the far side of the galaxy with several ork empires in tow.

If not him then so long as the ork race doesn't go extinct, there will be another. It's just the nature of the beast.

pm713 wrote:
IIRC doesn't an Eldar in the Beast series mention they had an Eldar version of the Beast back when they had an Empire? So Orks have turned into a weird test for civilisations wanting to take the galaxy?

Tau need to get on that.

I've had a think about what I said before i.e.

I think that the Orks didn't have clans before the War of the Beast. I've seen speculation that the 6 clans descend from the 6 imitation legions commanded by the Prime-Orks in this war.

If true, this actually has bigger implications than I thought.
This means that 'Da Big Party' happened sometime between the War of the Beast and the 41st millennium. The cause of Da Big Party i.e. the increasing adoption of human technology and methods by the Blood Axe leader caste also must have also happened between these events (makes sense as the Imperium hadn't been around for that long before the War of the Beast).
This shows that the Orks have undergone some social development in the last 9,000 years even if their modus operandi has remained largely unchanged.

Another thing that can be highlighted is that in the Beast Arises books humans are surprised at Orks having the ability to speak Imperial Gothic, whereas in the 41st millennium this is no longer particularly note worthy as shown by events like Imperials working closely with Ork guides at Big Toof River, selling booby-trapped Basilisks across the lines at Armageddon, the ad-hoc ceasefires formed by the troops on the ground on Armageddon following the opening of the Great Rift etc.

I realize it's a typo but I really like 'Irks' that should be the official 'not-orks' name for 3rd party manufactures.

IIRC, Gargants are Ork reactions to Imperial titans. If so, then that means they may not have been common - if they existed at all - before the Great Crusade.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
IIRC, Gargants are Ork reactions to Imperial titans. If so, then that means they may not have been common - if they existed at all - before the Great Crusade.

This is true, but I believe Titans are iterations of war machines from the Dark Age of Technology so it is likely that Orks had already encountered Titans and created their Gargant copies well before the Great Crusade.

It is also possible that they had copied the idea from Eldar Titans before humans even invented their own as I don't think it was ever specified that Gargants were copies of Human Titans.

 Kroem wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
IIRC, Gargants are Ork reactions to Imperial titans. If so, then that means they may not have been common - if they existed at all - before the Great Crusade.

This is true, but I believe Titans are iterations of war machines from the Dark Age of Technology so it is likely that Orks had already encountered Titans and created their Gargant copies well before the Great Crusade.

It is also possible that they had copied the idea from Eldar Titans before humans even invented their own as I don't think it was ever specified that Gargants were copies of Human Titans.

Eldar titans predate imperial. They likely where and have been in use since the war in heaven. Or other more lethal weaponry they not longer use.

Thr Necron hold back some weaponry, they have stuff rarely ever seen like world engines, embryonic orbs and maybe more locked away in the deepest weapon vaults of thr tomb worlds.

Eldar likely too have some ainciant or had and lost some extremely advanced doomsday weaponry no longer in regular use. Ie other than the black stone.

The ork gargantuants etc are likely a response to those weapins given the war in heaven. Well Orks likely made titans and other heavier class attack moons etc during that time to counter those.

Every time weapons develop. Orks have a semi counter. When they saw titans they made a titan. World engines, Blackstone, a attack moon etc.

Similarly Orks are dependent on other civilizations for a lot of the tech they scrounge and repurpose.

Drop them on a medieval world and you get... orcs with pointy sticks. Give them a forge world to tear up and you get... something a lot scarier.

They rise to the challenge.

Seems the best way to beat them would be to lure them to some paradise world with plentiful food.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Similarly Orks are dependent on other civilizations for a lot of the tech they scrounge and repurpose.

Drop them on a medieval world and you get... orcs with pointy sticks. Give them a forge world to tear up and you get... something a lot scarier.

They rise to the challenge.

Seems the best way to beat them would be to lure them to some paradise world with plentiful food.

Yes and no. They still adapt. So leave then on a feudal world longer enough they will build a steam powered gargant etc. Steam powered mega armouror other things.

They are very creative, adaptable and able to modify Thete tech to the environments.

I imagine the Orkoid 'Kultur' remains fairly constant overt time for two reasons:

1) It is ingrained at a genetic level; and

2) It is so bloody successful as is.

Therefore the Orks themselves don't change unless their environment forces them to.

Feral Orks will eventually develop clans and then space travel based on what the codex says. Many a Waaagh starts when a Mek is created and can get enough teef together to build ships or hijack a Space Hulk.

IIRC doesn't an Eldar in the Beast series mention they had an Eldar version of the Beast back when they had an Empire?

Do you mean some sort of super Eldar? Like a mega Avatar or something?

 Ratius wrote:

IIRC doesn't an Eldar in the Beast series mention they had an Eldar version of the Beast back when they had an Empire?

Do you mean some sort of super Eldar? Like a mega Avatar or something?

No there was a big bad Ork warboss who waged a war like the Beast but stronger to match the stronger Eldar Empire.