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2018/02/16 13:47:44
Subject: Custodes: Allarus Custodians vs. Wardens
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Been Around the Block
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So I am making my list and am considering the following:
4 Wardens w/misercordias - 268 points
3 Allarus Custodians w/misericordia - 264 points
Both units will have 12 wounds each with the same attack profile (all with axes). Wardens have more melee attacks (there are more of them) and Allarus have more shooting. While Allarus have 4 wounds each vs 3 for the Wardens, Wardens have the additional 6+ FNP. Wardens can also deep strike for 1 CP
In a vacuum, which is usually the better bang for the buck?
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2018/02/16 17:48:20
Subject: Custodes: Allarus Custodians vs. Wardens
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
McCragge
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The terminators are better - more specific strategems for them plus you don't have to use any CP to deep strike them. They also have the grenade launchers which can do some cool stuff like concussion grenades.
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Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. |
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2018/02/16 18:48:32
Subject: Re:Custodes: Allarus Custodians vs. Wardens
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Been Around the Block
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So you would you say Terminators based on strat support. I hadn't thought of that.
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2018/02/16 19:07:55
Subject: Custodes: Allarus Custodians vs. Wardens
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Ship's Officer
London
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Point for point I think Wardems are the toughest and hittiest custodes. They miss out a bit on shooting compared to normal custodians though, and can’t take shields. Wardens are - in my opinion - the coolest models.
So I think it depends what you’re doing:
- If walking, take normal troops.
- In a transport take wardens. You get the best balance of hitting power to cost to space on the ride.
- Deep striking take terminators... or anything. It’s arguably better to pay a xp to drop in a troop unit, because if you’ve taken troops you’ll probably have more CPs. Dropping in 10 spearmen might have an impact, and doesn’t cost all that much less than 5 terminators.
- Or just spam bikes.
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2018/02/16 19:24:22
Subject: Re:Custodes: Allarus Custodians vs. Wardens
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Been Around the Block
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I'm one of the odd people that think bikes are great but I am not sold on the all bike armies I see floating around. Right now, I am working around a core of 3x3 Custodian guard squads with a captain on bike with 3-6 bikes. The rest will be out with things like wardens or terminators, vexillas, etc and other HQs
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2018/02/16 20:25:16
Subject: Re:Custodes: Allarus Custodians vs. Wardens
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Rajah wrote:So you would you say Terminators based on strat support. I hadn't thought of that.
Note that, uh, primark g tends to hold opinions contrary to most everyone else, who would say that wardens are the superior option
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2018/02/16 20:33:06
Subject: Custodes: Allarus Custodians vs. Wardens
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Damsel of the Lady
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Take a read through the last 3-4 pages of the Tactics thread. It's mostly Bike Vs. Allarus discussion, but the math on Allarus should be useful to you.
I normally say Wardens for lower cost but if you're gonna take enough Wardens that cost balances out that changes things.
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2018/02/16 21:20:40
Subject: Re:Custodes: Allarus Custodians vs. Wardens
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
McCragge
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stratigo wrote:Rajah wrote:So you would you say Terminators based on strat support. I hadn't thought of that.
Note that, uh, primark g tends to hold opinions contrary to most everyone else, who would say that wardens are the superior option
I base what I say on results... not voidhammer.
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Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. |
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2018/02/18 05:32:38
Subject: Re:Custodes: Allarus Custodians vs. Wardens
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Primark G wrote:stratigo wrote:Rajah wrote:So you would you say Terminators based on strat support. I hadn't thought of that.
Note that, uh, primark g tends to hold opinions contrary to most everyone else, who would say that wardens are the superior option
I base what I say on results... not voidhammer.
PEDM is an acronym for you to remember. Everyone proved you wrong on the math and basic logic/tactics in the Custodes Tactics thread.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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2018/02/18 05:58:44
Subject: Custodes: Allarus Custodians vs. Wardens
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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In my experience of using both I prefer Wardens generally because they're more resistant to multi-damage attacks (12W broken up into more chunks, plus they take a lot more 2-damage attacks to drop than the Allarus). The Allarus get you more shots but they're not particularly reliable so if you take them assuming the Ballistus is going to be useful you'll be disappointed more often than not.
The Stratagems available for the Allarus are traps more often than not, and they're not a good reason to take a three-man unit given that they're only really useful for large units. Unleash The Lions is funny but wildly situational given that it interferes with Deep Strike (and Deep Strike without CP is the major reason you're taking Allarus over Wardens in the frist place), Inescapable Vengeance is really kind of pointless on a three-man Allarus unit given that they can't kill any characters that are worth getting the shots at 2CP at before charging (anything they can kill is kind of a waste of time to dump that many CPs into killing slightly earlier), the time you want that stratagem is if you've got a unit of 6-8 and can land them in a position to kill multiple support characters with that stratagem. Concussion Grenades is the only one that's really an effective addition to your arsenal, and I honestly don't think it's enough to justify taking Allarus over Wardens.
In a vacuum, take the Wardens. If you like the Allarus models and want to use them, use them but don't be surprised if you aren't impressed by their performance. If you're thinking "sure, but I can use the stratagems..." with three hundred points to put into a soup Vanguard detachment you'll get tools that'll do them better and get another Command Point to use on useful things like From The Golden Light, Indomitable Guardians, Piercing Strike, or charge distance rerolls.
TL;DR: If you want to use the Allarus build an army around using them. Without the Stratagems they're not really that effective and with the Stratagems you want a big unit, not three-man units.
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2018/02/18 06:51:42
Subject: Re:Custodes: Allarus Custodians vs. Wardens
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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Wardens are GENERALLY the superior unit. But I think if you want a back field deep strike unit choice, the Terminators have some merit.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/18 06:52:12
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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2018/02/18 06:53:49
Subject: Custodes: Allarus Custodians vs. Wardens
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
McCragge
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I run both units... a squad of four Wardens and a squad of three Allarus. Both are armed with axes. Being able to shut down overwatch for multiple enemy units and being able to deep strike into reliable Charge range off a Vexilla are powerful. You’re going to use command points. I don’t see any strategems for Wardens being nearly as good but it’s nice to be able to deep strike them.
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Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. |
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2018/02/18 07:38:18
Subject: Custodes: Allarus Custodians vs. Wardens
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Who cares about shutting off Overwatch?
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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2018/02/18 08:27:33
Subject: Custodes: Allarus Custodians vs. Wardens
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Deranged Necron Destroyer
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You get 5 wardens with castellan axes, or 4 allarus with axes and with misericordias for the price of 260 roughly
Wardens (shooting) vs t7
6 shots is 5.04 hits which is 1.61 wounds, .52 not saved for potential 2 damage.
Total: 1.04
Wardens (shooting) vs t8
6 shots is 5.04 hits which is .81 wounds, .26 not saved for potential 2 damage.
Total: .52
Allarus (shooting) vs t7
6 shots is 5.04 hits which is 1.61 wounds, .52 not saved for potential 2 damage.
(grenade launcher) 6 shots is 5.04 hits which is 1.61 wounds .8 not saved
Total: 1.84
Allarus (shooting) vs t8
6 shots is 5.04 hits which is .81 wounds, .26 not saved for potential 2 damage.
(grenade launcher) 6 shots is 5.04 hits which is .81 wounds, .41 not saved
total: .93
Wardens (melee) vs T7
(axe)12 attacks is 9.6 hits, 6.53 wounds, 3.26 not saved
(knife) 3 attacks is 2.52, .81 wounds, .40 not saved
Total: 6.93
Wardens (melee) vs T8
(axe)12 attacks is 9.6 hits, 4.8 wounds, 2.4 not saved
(knife) 3 attacks is 2.52, .81 wounds, .40 not saved
Total: 5.2
Allarus (melee) vs T7
(axe)12 attacks is 9.6 hits, 6.53 wounds, 3.26 not saved
(knife) 2 attacks is 1.6, .51 wounds, .26 not saved
Total: 6.78
Allaruss (melee) vs T8
(axe)12 attacks is 9.6 hits, 4.8 wounds, 2.4 not saved
(knife) 2 attacks is 1.6, .51 wounds, .26 not saved
Total:5.06
T7 (shooting)
W=1.04, A=1.82,
T7(melee)
W=6.93, A=6.78,
T8 (shooting)
W=.52, A=.93
T8 (melee)
W=5.20, A=5.06
T7 (melee +shooting)
W= 7.97,
A=8.6,
T8(melee+shooting)
W= 5.72
A=5.99
They are pretty close to one another damage wise vs t7 or t8. If you want to save on points take wardens, if you want to save on command points take allarus.
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It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case. |
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2018/02/19 00:35:47
Subject: Custodes: Allarus Custodians vs. Wardens
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
McCragge
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That’s a good comparison and fair.
If your jetbike Captain was down to his last wound and needed a charge to win the game wouldn’t it be advantageous to stop overwatch?
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Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. |
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2018/02/20 13:04:42
Subject: Re:Custodes: Allarus Custodians vs. Wardens
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Been Around the Block
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Lots of interesting thoughts in this thread. I'll have to think about the CP investment of taking wardens.
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