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It seems to me that Cadia fell because of lack of distinction to normal IG, sure in many veteran tabletop gamers there are huge differences and clear distinction, but games like DoW series it's very hard to tell the difference to a normal IG and Kasrkin troops, especially in DoW II.

Now with Scions we get an unmistakable distinction.

Actually I think Cadia fell because a very big Blackstone Fortress was crashed into it. It had very little to do with how skilled Cadia's defenders were in the end, although Cadian Shock Troopers are well known for being some of the best Guardsmen you could command, similar to what the Ultramarines are to Space Marines.

As good as guardsmen can be, they are no match for a hundred thousand of chaos marines and 100x their number of demons. Sometimes chaos wins. Chaos are much like the orcs as they suffer from infighting between legions and gods. As soon as they busted cadia they fell into infighting. If they had not the current situation would be far far worse.

Cadia fell because the planet cracked before the Guard did

Cadia fell because 15 years ago Chaos won a victory in a global event and GW finally got off their ass about putting that victory into the setting.

A story doesn't write itself, it's the will of GW.

In the end a Cadian is still only a guardsman and no match to a Chaos Marine that's in service for thousands of years - like many of the Black Legion that attacked Cadia were. Without Necron tech Cadia would have been wiped out immediately.

Cadia fell because the hacks at GW can't recognise the difference between a setting and a story - 40k at 1 minute to midnight on the Doomsday Clock is a setting, and didn't need any of this sort of "advancement".

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
In the end a Cadian is still only a guardsman and no match to a Chaos Marine that's in service for thousands of years - like many of the Black Legion that attacked Cadia were.

Correct. A guardsman vs only one chaos marine is a horribly unfair fight, you'd need at least a whole squad of marines to give them a chance. That's why Cadia broke before it's defenders did. And that was just Cadia. God help the marines that have to go up against a real threat like Krieg or any planet Marbo might be near.

 Peregrine wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
In the end a Cadian is still only a guardsman and no match to a Chaos Marine that's in service for thousands of years - like many of the Black Legion that attacked Cadia were.

Correct. A guardsman vs only one chaos marine is a horribly unfair fight, you'd need at least a whole squad of marines to give them a chance. That's why Cadia broke before it's defenders did. And that was just Cadia. God help the marines that have to go up against a real threat like Krieg or any planet Marbo might be near.

Im pretty sure the guard broke when cadia did. I mean after all they had to have some sissy warlocks lead the great retreat from our splendid and mighty legions.

Table wrote:
Im pretty sure the guard broke when cadia did. I mean after all they had to have some sissy warlocks lead the great retreat from our splendid and mighty legions.

The point there is that it took the very planet itself to be torn apart by a Blackstone Fortress crashing into it to break the Guard on it; Cadia was still fit to repel the Black Crusade up to that point, and in fact it had done, since Abaddon was in retreat before he made a desperate attempt to break the defenders with a very valuable and irreplaceable asset. And so, Cadia broke before its defenders did.

 General Annoyance wrote:

Table wrote:
Im pretty sure the guard broke when cadia did. I mean after all they had to have some sissy warlocks lead the great retreat from our splendid and mighty legions.

The point there is that it took the very planet itself to be torn apart by a Blackstone Fortress crashing into it to break the Guard on it; Cadia was still fit to repel the Black Crusade up to that point, and in fact it had done, since Abaddon was in retreat before he made a desperate attempt to break the defenders with a very valuable and irreplaceable asset. And so, Cadia broke before its defenders did.

Which is pretty impressive. It says something about an army, if the only way to defeat them is to completely destroy the territory they are defending.

God Emperor bless Cadia!

Table wrote:
As good as guardsmen can be, they are no match for a hundred thousand of chaos marines and 100x their number of demons. Sometimes chaos wins. Chaos are much like the orcs as they suffer from infighting between legions and gods. As soon as they busted cadia they fell into infighting. If they had not the current situation would be far far worse.

Wrong. Chaos won only due to plot. A SM is worth ten IG men, in the words of Rogal Dorn. Let's be generous and say 100. What you need to equal 'a hundred thousand of chaos marines'? Ten million men. Except, divide that by three, as defender in well prepared fortress has such an advantage an attacker needs at least 3:1 advantage in numbers to begin with, if not 10:1 if fortress is good.

Cadia had billion native defenders, plus hundreds of regiments from outside, rotated regularly.

So, unless 'armless pulled fifty million of CSM out of his behind, he had zero chances to do anything but being horribly stomped with minimum losses. QED.

 Irbis wrote:

Table wrote:
As good as guardsmen can be, they are no match for a hundred thousand of chaos marines and 100x their number of demons. Sometimes chaos wins. Chaos are much like the orcs as they suffer from infighting between legions and gods. As soon as they busted cadia they fell into infighting. If they had not the current situation would be far far worse.

Wrong. Chaos won only due to plot. A SM is worth ten IG men, in the words of Rogal Dorn. Let's be generous and say 100. What you need to equal 'a hundred thousand of chaos marines'? Ten million men. Except, divide that by three, as defender in well prepared fortress has such an advantage an attacker needs at least 3:1 advantage in numbers to begin with, if not 10:1 if fortress is good.

Cadia had billion native defenders, plus hundreds of regiments from outside, rotated regularly.

So, unless 'armless pulled fifty million of CSM out of his behind, he had zero chances to do anything but being horribly stomped with minimum losses. QED.

Assuming 1 billion Canadians are in range of all hundreds of thousands of chaos marines.

 Irbis wrote:

Table wrote:
As good as guardsmen can be, they are no match for a hundred thousand of chaos marines and 100x their number of demons. Sometimes chaos wins. Chaos are much like the orcs as they suffer from infighting between legions and gods. As soon as they busted cadia they fell into infighting. If they had not the current situation would be far far worse.

Wrong. Chaos won only due to plot. A SM is worth ten IG men, in the words of Rogal Dorn. Let's be generous and say 100. What you need to equal 'a hundred thousand of chaos marines'? Ten million men. Except, divide that by three, as defender in well prepared fortress has such an advantage an attacker needs at least 3:1 advantage in numbers to begin with, if not 10:1 if fortress is good.

Cadia had billion native defenders, plus hundreds of regiments from outside, rotated regularly.

So, unless 'armless pulled fifty million of CSM out of his behind, he had zero chances to do anything but being horribly stomped with minimum losses. QED.

Did Dorn factor in Chaos steroids though? I think when he said that he was talking about normal marines, not marines hopped up on warp dust.

 Desubot wrote:
Assuming 1 billion Canadians are in range of all hundreds of thousands of chaos marines.

That doesn't matter, really. Look at D-Day. Largest landing operation in history, involved desanting 100.000 men across a narrow strait, nothing as complicated as desanting from space.

It still took a week to disembark them all, paid by 10.000 dead, despite Germans being outnumbered 3:1 and sitting in weak fortifications (Normandy was chosen precisely because it was one of the weakest points on the coast). Even then, the allied forces were effectively stranded and cut off from resupply until they managed to capture a port through which supplies could be delivered.

Now, imagine there is not 50.000 Germans defending, but fifty million of them, each beach has to repel attack of a hundred Panzer Divisions, and as you land Rommel orders the beaches to be bombed by hundred nukes.

In first wave alone.

And he has hundred times that in reserve, waiting for button push. In both conventional and atomic munitions.

Oh, and the defenses on the beaches aren't sparse fortified strongpoints with a handful of bunkers, but second Alps made out of concrete with ten gun barrels aiming at every single soldier you have.

That's about how an attempt to take Cadia would look, with attempts to take a landing zone alone being epic battle claiming life of billion soldiers at the least. The fact 'armless did it off screen with laughably inferior force and when we took first look at battle Cadia was already on its last legs with nearly zero losses to CSM can be summed up as Milky Way sized heap of plot armours that was needed to blot out the su... all the lasguns on the planet

 Irbis wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Assuming 1 billion Canadians are in range of all hundreds of thousands of chaos marines.

That doesn't matter, really. Look at D-Day. Largest landing operation in history, involved desanting 100.000 men across a narrow strait, nothing as complicated as desanting from space.

It still took a week to disembark them all, paid by 10.000 dead, despite Germans being outnumbered 3:1 and sitting in weak fortifications (Normandy was chosen precisely because it was one of the weakest points on the coast). Even then, the allied forces were effectively stranded and cut off from resupply until they managed to capture a port through which supplies could be delivered.

Now, imagine there is not 50.000 Germans defending, but fifty million of them, each beach has to repel attack of a hundred Panzer Divisions, and as you land Rommel orders the beaches to be bombed by hundred nukes.

In first wave alone.

And he has hundred times that in reserve, waiting for button push. In both conventional and atomic munitions.

Oh, and the defenses on the beaches aren't sparse fortified strongpoints with a handful of bunkers, but second Alps made out of concrete with ten gun barrels aiming at every single soldier you have.

That's about how an attempt to take Cadia would look, with attempts to take a landing zone alone being epic battle claiming life of billion soldiers at the least. The fact 'armless did it off screen with laughably inferior force and when we took first look at battle Cadia was already on its last legs with nearly zero losses to CSM can be summed up as Milky Way sized heap of plot armours that was needed to blot out the su... all the lasguns on the planet

Unless we remember that Chaos is unlike any conventional military and is literally led by superhuman, ungodly-imbued killing machines.

It's perfectly feasible that Chaos could have done it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Assuming 1 billion Canadians are in range of all hundreds of thousands of chaos marines.

That doesn't matter, really. Look at D-Day. Largest landing operation in history, involved desanting 100.000 men across a narrow strait, nothing as complicated as desanting from space.

It still took a week to disembark them all, paid by 10.000 dead, despite Germans being outnumbered 3:1 and sitting in weak fortifications (Normandy was chosen precisely because it was one of the weakest points on the coast). Even then, the allied forces were effectively stranded and cut off from resupply until they managed to capture a port through which supplies could be delivered.

Now, imagine there is not 50.000 Germans defending, but fifty million of them, each beach has to repel attack of a hundred Panzer Divisions, and as you land Rommel orders the beaches to be bombed by hundred nukes.

In first wave alone.

And he has hundred times that in reserve, waiting for button push. In both conventional and atomic munitions.

Oh, and the defenses on the beaches aren't sparse fortified strongpoints with a handful of bunkers, but second Alps made out of concrete with ten gun barrels aiming at every single soldier you have.

That's about how an attempt to take Cadia would look, with attempts to take a landing zone alone being epic battle claiming life of billion soldiers at the least. The fact 'armless did it off screen with laughably inferior force and when we took first look at battle Cadia was already on its last legs with nearly zero losses to CSM can be summed up as Milky Way sized heap of plot armours that was needed to blot out the su... all the lasguns on the planet

Unless we remember that Chaos is unlike any conventional military and is literally led by superhuman, ungodly-imbued killing machines.

It's perfectly feasible that Chaos could have done it.

That and i dont think the the allies had teleportation, and drop pod..(wait what does chaos have in place of something like a thunder hawk in current fluff? do they still have a gaggle of dread claws right?) falling from orbit at terminal velocities which is definitly probably much harder to do than defending a shore line. considering taking down missiles from the ground is already hard enough.

You really shouldn't try to apply historical real life logic to space fantasty battles in space.

chaos also had mortal servants. a COMMON chaos tactic is to send in the cultists etc first so that artillery etc can pin point the strong points without needing to risk chaos marines.

 Irbis wrote:

Table wrote:
Wrong. Chaos won only due to plot.

Indeed, but why did GW allow such plot, as I stated in OP it may be due to the desire of having more distinct troops apperance, so they now bet on Scions than Kasrkin, isn't it so that in 8ed Kasrkin didn't get any rule book?

It was a good thing chaos won. GW has been puffing off the imperials for far to long and it hurt the story. Your hero is only as valid as your villain. And chaos pre 8th edition was laughable at best. Now they are legitimate threat and the story is much better off. The imperial is struggling to survive. And it is a good thing.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Assuming 1 billion Canadians are in range of all hundreds of thousands of chaos marines.

That doesn't matter, really. Look at D-Day. Largest landing operation in history, involved desanting 100.000 men across a narrow strait, nothing as complicated as desanting from space.

It still took a week to disembark them all, paid by 10.000 dead, despite Germans being outnumbered 3:1 and sitting in weak fortifications (Normandy was chosen precisely because it was one of the weakest points on the coast). Even then, the allied forces were effectively stranded and cut off from resupply until they managed to capture a port through which supplies could be delivered.

Now, imagine there is not 50.000 Germans defending, but fifty million of them, each beach has to repel attack of a hundred Panzer Divisions, and as you land Rommel orders the beaches to be bombed by hundred nukes.

In first wave alone.

And he has hundred times that in reserve, waiting for button push. In both conventional and atomic munitions.

Oh, and the defenses on the beaches aren't sparse fortified strongpoints with a handful of bunkers, but second Alps made out of concrete with ten gun barrels aiming at every single soldier you have.

That's about how an attempt to take Cadia would look, with attempts to take a landing zone alone being epic battle claiming life of billion soldiers at the least. The fact 'armless did it off screen with laughably inferior force and when we took first look at battle Cadia was already on its last legs with nearly zero losses to CSM can be summed up as Milky Way sized heap of plot armours that was needed to blot out the su... all the lasguns on the planet

Unless we remember that Chaos is unlike any conventional military and is literally led by superhuman, ungodly-imbued killing machines.

It's perfectly feasible that Chaos could have done it.

But remember, these are guardsmen we're talking about, not mere space marines. Whatever numbers it would take for WWII armies need to be multiplied by a lot when dealing with guardsmen (gods of war) vs. screaming idiots with chainsaws.

 Peregrine wrote:
But remember, these are guardsmen we're talking about, not mere space marines. Whatever numbers it would take for WWII armies need to be multiplied by a lot when dealing with guardsmen (gods of war) vs. screaming idiots with chainsaws.

..but BaneBlades and Earth Shaker Artillery?

 Desubot wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Assuming 1 billion Canadians are in range of all hundreds of thousands of chaos marines.

That doesn't matter, really. Look at D-Day. Largest landing operation in history, involved desanting 100.000 men across a narrow strait, nothing as complicated as desanting from space.

It still took a week to disembark them all, paid by 10.000 dead, despite Germans being outnumbered 3:1 and sitting in weak fortifications (Normandy was chosen precisely because it was one of the weakest points on the coast). Even then, the allied forces were effectively stranded and cut off from resupply until they managed to capture a port through which supplies could be delivered.

Now, imagine there is not 50.000 Germans defending, but fifty million of them, each beach has to repel attack of a hundred Panzer Divisions, and as you land Rommel orders the beaches to be bombed by hundred nukes.

In first wave alone.

And he has hundred times that in reserve, waiting for button push. In both conventional and atomic munitions.

Oh, and the defenses on the beaches aren't sparse fortified strongpoints with a handful of bunkers, but second Alps made out of concrete with ten gun barrels aiming at every single soldier you have.

That's about how an attempt to take Cadia would look, with attempts to take a landing zone alone being epic battle claiming life of billion soldiers at the least. The fact 'armless did it off screen with laughably inferior force and when we took first look at battle Cadia was already on its last legs with nearly zero losses to CSM can be summed up as Milky Way sized heap of plot armours that was needed to blot out the su... all the lasguns on the planet

Unless we remember that Chaos is unlike any conventional military and is literally led by superhuman, ungodly-imbued killing machines.

It's perfectly feasible that Chaos could have done it.

That and i dont think the the allies had teleportation, and drop pod..(wait what does chaos have in place of something like a thunder hawk in current fluff? do they still have a gaggle of dread claws right?) falling from orbit at terminal velocities which is definitly probably much harder to do than defending a shore line. considering taking down missiles from the ground is already hard enough.

You really shouldn't try to apply historical real life logic to space fantasty battles in space.

The allies also didn't drop a massive alien warship on the germans. I don't care how entrenched you are, if I drop a massive, alien warship that's about moon sized, you will die.
That said, the fact Abaddon did that does show that the Chaos forces were having a bad time.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


The allies also didn't drop a massive alien warship on the germans. I don't care how entrenched you are, if I drop a massive, alien warship that's about moon sized, you will die.
That said, the fact Abaddon did that does show that the Chaos forces were having a bad time.

Man if you had a moon sized space station above a planet you could of just tractor beamed Canada away from or closer to the sun and just watched everyone die instead of bothering to set foot on ground

 Desubot wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


The allies also didn't drop a massive alien warship on the germans. I don't care how entrenched you are, if I drop a massive, alien warship that's about moon sized, you will die.
That said, the fact Abaddon did that does show that the Chaos forces were having a bad time.

Man if you had a moon sized space station above a planet you could of just tractor beamed Canada away from or closer to the sun and just watched everyone die instead of bothering to set foot on ground

what's this have to do with Canada! jeeze man! picking on my country!

 Desubot wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


The allies also didn't drop a massive alien warship on the germans. I don't care how entrenched you are, if I drop a massive, alien warship that's about moon sized, you will die.
That said, the fact Abaddon did that does show that the Chaos forces were having a bad time.

Man if you had a moon sized space station above a planet you could of just tractor beamed Canada away from or closer to the sun and just watched everyone die instead of bothering to set foot on ground

Yeah - please don't get us any further from the sun. Spring was just around the corner.

In any case, I think it was the Conscript/Commissar nerf that did Cadia in. I heard it was a Beta test.

Actually the nerf came after. If the nerf happened before the the Cadians would've broke before the planet.

Well.. I think for anyone who took part in GWs eye of terror campaign - the true result of that campaign has finally been realised in the official background