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We know that Silica Animus, or a True AI has been forbidden by the Imperium of Man and also the Cult Mechanicus due to practical and theological reasons.

But i've often wondered then what is meant by the Mechanicus when they speak of "Machine-Spirits."

I know in the Early Days of Warhammer 40k in the Real World, Machine Spirits were kinda seen as a joke - a non-entity highlighting the Mechanicus' backward nature.

As time has moved forward and the nature of the setting has changed, Machine Spirits actually became a true "thing" in the Fluff and Fiction, although what that actually is i'm a little confused on.

Is it merely referring to the processes of a machine?

Is it the algorithms that underlay our Computers and other devices?

Is it perhaps some sort of low-level AI?

I mean... Is



a Machine Spirit?


Does it refer to an Actual Warp Entity?

Or is it really just the Mechanicus' limited understanding of machines that is encapsulates a lot of complicated processes into a "thing" which they call a spirit?

I'm not sure it's known for 100% certain, though I remember reading one theory that they were half-crazed remnants of the Men of Iron still lurking in machines like ghosts.

It's a combination of animist belief (tree spirits, rock spirits, river spirits, etc) and limited expert-system machine intelligence for the most part (when it comes to armour and weapons spirits). But wedged into a technology=religion mindset belief system. Electrickery and techno goblins in the machine.

And engineered bio-tissue and handwavium-level electronics into a imited-focus expert system. For robots and vehicles.
They can be "programmed" for set tasks inside a given paradigm and will have a limited way of dealing with unspecified events ("to the man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail"). Your digital watch has a machine spirit - but it's only capable of doing a limited number of things, so does a titan - and the titan's is both capable of doing much more and learning from and taking on characteristics of their pilot.

The "other side" will probably have ACTUAL "ghosts" and "daemons" in their machines, though. Cunningly cajoled and bound into the devices through the use of arcane rites and .exe files.

Alexa and Siri are demonic agents though. Cortana is just a barely sentient calculator.

GrapeApe wrote:
...Or is it really just the Mechanicus' limited understanding of machines that is encapsulates a lot of complicated processes into a "thing" which they call a spirit?

Most of the time yes. The term "Machine Spirit" is an animistic allegory used to describe the general behavior of complicated mechanisms to people who don't understand them. The degree to which the Mechanicum themselves understand that it's an allegory used to describe the behaviour of a complicated mechanism as opposed to a literal "spirit" with will and intent varies from Techpriest to Techpriest, however.

Complicating the matter, though, is that the term can refer to AIs (see: the Cortex-bots of the Legio Cybernetica, which are limited AIs that can develop true sentience and stop obeying orders over long use, sort of like rampant AIs in Halo or droids in Star Wars that haven't been memory-wiped in a long time) and daemonic entities (see: Daemon engines of all sorts), and that "daemonic possession" and "true AI" are sort of interchangeable anyway (see: the "daemonic scrap-code" in the novel Mechanicum or the daemonic names that take down the Calth defensive systems in Know No Fear).

In some older books/novels a machine spirit is the bio-mechanical entity that takes place of AI. Essentially a brain mixed with machinery(cyborg?). Whether this brain/material is vat grown, animal, or human is up to some authors.

But it’s also used as a catch all term. Such as some pens having one even though they are mechanical not digital.

As for the origins of the machine spirit it seems to be based on the superstition soldiers sometimes have with their gear. For instance some soldiers anthropomorphize their gun. Similarly gamers do the same to dice.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
In some older books/novels a machine spirit is the bio-mechanical entity that takes place of AI. Essentially a brain mixed with machinery(cyborg?). Whether this brain/material is vat grown, animal, or human is up to some authors.

But it’s also used as a catch all term. Such as some pens having one even though they are mechanical not digital.

As for the origins of the machine spirit it seems to be based on the superstition soldiers sometimes have with their gear. For instance some soldiers anthropomorphize their gun. Similarly gamers do the same to dice.

and people with their cars, and their computers etc.

Probably a very basic form of AI that's accepted due to religious dogma.

I think it is lots of different things rolled into one, often metaphysical.

It can be any / all of:

hard characteristics:

limited AI/programming
organic cogitators

soft characteristics:

the 'character' of the device (the old car, favorite kitchen knife, etc)
religious significance of the object
the history of the object

These characteristics can combine to produce limited warp presence for the object (a scalpel is created with the intention of and use for cutting, so it has a 'cutting' warp profile. A well made historic, sword associated with strong characters could develop a very distinct warp presence over time -these are the spirits chaos mutilators consume in order to be able to manifest weaponry).

It probably started off as believing the machines had a soul, but as with all things that belief could easily have manifested as something in the warp and then reflected back, so a literal machine god (bill gates) decides what works and what doesnt, there is your in universe idea.

Out universe, depends on the machine in question, a Land Raider has a basic awareness and very sophisticated targeting software system, able to adapt to situations and targets on the fly and make decisions, thats very advanced (to us).

In-universe, when the AdMech speaks of the Machine Spirit they are referring to the spirit they believe inhabits every single piece of technology. They believe every machine has its own soul and awareness, and that these spirits must be properly honoured lest they turn against their user. To keep a machine functioning it is necessary to please the machine spirit.

Out of universe, it is unknown what the machine spirit precisely is. It could be some form of AI, it could be actual (warp) spirits or remnants of self-aware technology from the DAoT, or maybe machine spirits don't exist at all and are just be a belief of the AdMech. It is intentionally left vague.

Machine spirits are most certainly AI. The reverance that 40k ad mech has is partially (without them realizing it) to help innoculate against chaos corruption since any level of sentience, including AI, can be corrupted. So all those Psalms and awakening prayers etc. actually work to an extent to protect the AI machine spirits against chaos or xenos corruption.

 buddha wrote:
Machine spirits are most certainly AI. The reverance that 40k ad mech has is partially (without them realizing it) to help innoculate against chaos corruption since any level of sentience, including AI, can be corrupted. So all those Psalms and awakening prayers etc. actually work to an extent to protect the AI machine spirits against chaos or xenos corruption.

You know, i tend to bend toward some verison of Chromedog and AnomanderRake's interpretation, but with the Warp being what it is (ie: Enough Human Belief = Effect on the Cosmos), i'm starting to wonder if the last half of your statement - ie: the Psalms/Prayers/etc. is correct as well.

I mean... Techsorcists exist... Tech Priests who cast out Daemons from Machines in the same way a member of the Ecclesiarchy or an Imperial Psyker or the Adeptus Sororitas might do an Exorcism on a a Human....

Machine spirits are low level or dormant AI that have most likely been implemented in blueprints for just about every piece of imperial tech, as most tech is related to/comes from STC's. We know that just about everything had AI's in the golden age of technology. Psalms and oils most likely don't just appease these AI's, they most likely program them or, in a more sinister way ( and my headcanon probably), remind the AI's of what happened to the Men of Iron and what happens to AI's that go rogue, thus AI's obey and/or go dormant. I'm interested how this relates to true AI's such as the AI from the Speranza or other ark mechanicus'.

 buddha wrote:
So all those Psalms and awakening prayers etc. actually work to an extent to protect the AI machine spirits against chaos or xenos corruption.

I thought the main purpose of the prayers etc was to help untrained personnel (as in not AdMech) use the technology and carry out routine maintenance? They don't just sing "oh mighty machine, don't step on us", there's also the parts where you're quite literally told which buttons to press after having checked all the important things like gauges being in the green, switches set to power and no one standing in the area marked yellow.

But Machine Spirits could be any of the things already mentioned.

If you're strict it's an actual consciousness of some sort - like the guiding mind of a Land Raider or a Titan. These are at least partially aware, they can do things on their own and they can be offended if you don't treat them right.

In some cases it refers to an expert system that doesn't actually think or make decisions but can seem like it. Whatever drives Power Armor, especially the Astartes versions, often seems smarter than it is. It collects experiences and might bring up a function before the Marine had time to ask for it, if it recognizes that he's likely to ask for it. His ranged weapon(s) might also have a lot of targeting equipment connected to the PA that sometimes highlights potential targets before the Marine has decided to shoot them. But his armor isn't actually going to walk around shooting things without him.

When it comes to simpler things like weapons lacking any complex targeting devices "machine spirit" is more like what we have today. We swear at a PC that freezes though it probably didn't choose to do it. The car didn't fail to start because of the cold, it just hates us. Etc etc.

 chromedog wrote:
It's a combination of animist belief (tree spirits, rock spirits, river spirits, etc) and limited expert-system machine intelligence for the most part (when it comes to armour and weapons spirits). But wedged into a technology=religion mindset belief system. Electrickery and techno goblins in the machine.

And engineered bio-tissue and handwavium-level electronics into a imited-focus expert system. For robots and vehicles.
They can be "programmed" for set tasks inside a given paradigm and will have a limited way of dealing with unspecified events ("to the man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail"). Your digital watch has a machine spirit - but it's only capable of doing a limited number of things, so does a titan - and the titan's is both capable of doing much more and learning from and taking on characteristics of their pilot.

The "other side" will probably have ACTUAL "ghosts" and "daemons" in their machines, though. Cunningly cajoled and bound into the devices through the use of arcane rites and .exe files.

Alexa and Siri are demonic agents though. Cortana is just a barely sentient calculator.

This needs to be copy-pasted every time this question comes up

Perfect answer.

Oh, and as Alexa's spontaneously giggling now it's definitely possessed.

It's not hard to see why the animist view of machinery as moved by spirits would pop up, when you consider that the workings of most technology are essentially magic to modern man* and when you consider the levels of passion through frustration and rage an uncooperative machine can lead to in human beings. Explaining missing items in the household by pointing to mischievous goblins and explaining unruly electronics in the same manner isn't that much of a step. "Why the hell doesn't it work!? I've followed the manual step-by-step!"

If you have ever restarted the computer or turned the keys on a vehicle that has undergone repairs, while thinking "Please, please work this time!" then you know what drives the scientifically slowed worldview of the grim dark future.

____
* The uninitiated are just not reverent about it, but takes the magic for granted, its techno-babble the equivalent of litanies and magic mantras: "Yes of course my Iphone can take colour pictures, call people, tell me the time, wake me up in the morning, give me a route and map, play videos and music and host a bookshelf worth of tomes in my pocket. No, I have no idea how it works! But I've heard it's chips and circuits and ones and zeros..."

I also assumed that they are similar to the remake Galactica Cylon Raiders. It's the rough equivalent of a very clever animal. Is it going to argue philosophy or come up with a new economic model. No, however it knows friendlies from enemies and in some cases if left to it's own devices can still make decisions. I remember one story of a Land Raider that had lost it's crew still recognized the enemy and kept fighting.