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If you want to run 1000-1500 of pure custodes, what are the best allies to take alongside?

I was thinking a astra militarum battery pack, maybe a shadowsword or an execution force.

What's the most competitive option?

Pretty hard to go wrong with Guard infantry and tanks. They are currently the Imperiums strongest overall choice.

I just run a min Guard Battalion for the +5CP and extra bodies for capping objectives.

If you want your allies to do a bit more, you could ally Admech in instead and bring some anti-tank to merge with the Custodes large amount of horde and elite unit killing power.

We have an entire 60 some odd page tactica thread devoted to this.

That one is over 90% devoted to dawn eagles just saying.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
We have an entire 60 some odd page tactica thread devoted to this.

Yes, and I contribute to and read that. But without sifting through 60+ pages I want to know peoples opinions on it.

I mean, the short list of what I think and see recommended are:

Astra Militarum
Blood Angels
Deathwatch
Imperial Knights

Audustum wrote:
I mean, the short list of what I think and see recommended are:

Astra Militarum
Blood Angels
Deathwatch
Imperial Knights

Just replace Imperial Knights with Grey Knights (IK are crap) and add Officio Assasinorum.

AstraVlad wrote:

Audustum wrote:
I mean, the short list of what I think and see recommended are:

Astra Militarum
Blood Angels
Deathwatch
Imperial Knights

Just replace Imperial Knights with Grey Knights (IK are crap) and add Officio Assasinorum.

I didn't see a lot of people pushing GK before the new beta nerf (and even less now) so I didn't add them. I used to dabble adding them myself, but not after that hit with the nerf bat.

IK's get a mention because 1D4chan has a section on allying them to Custodes, which means there's at least a sizable segment of the populace thinking about it. Anything with more than an inch deep support or occurrence I was trying to include.

What units and allies are competitive.

Shield Captains on Dawneagles are their most competitive unit with the regular Dawneagles as their second. The most effective ally, if you want to run massed jetbikes, is AM.

At tournaments you will typically see people, who are running most of their points in Custodes, are something like this.



an AM battalion with 2 commanders 3 infantry squads with either mortars and/or snipers, and occasionally mortar heavy weapon teams.


2 shield captains no upgrades and the rest of their points dumped into jetbike squads, usually with one bigger squad for getting into the thick of it and smaller ones for zipping around playing the missions.

That said, when I went over all of the lists 400~ going into the london GT this weekend there are a disgusting amount of 3 shield captain supreme commands in EVERY flavor of imperium list.

Wild speculation here, but i imagine shield captains (on bikes) and the imperial guard "infinite command point" nonsense is next on the chopping block for FAQs.

Admech is a good choice too.


"... but i imagine shield captains (on bikes) and the imperial guard "infinite command point" nonsense is next on the chopping block for FAQs."

QFT

 Primark G wrote:
Admech is a good choice too.


"... but i imagine shield captains (on bikes) and the imperial guard "infinite command point" nonsense is next on the chopping block for FAQs."

QFT

Yup, it's a total given. I finally caved and picked up a min Cadian battalion for CPs and some bodies to screen my dreads, so I'm sure it'll be nerfed as soon as I finish painting it.

Don't worry that much about it, Bort. Even when the Aquila and/or warlord trait get adjusted 180-300 points worth of AM units for 5 command points is still _really_ good. 12 Mortars is glorious, even min 186(snipers) battalion is great for many imperial armies trying to get some more bodies for/board presence. 190~ point Dawneagle captains in the future I bet

I have never been impressed with the mortars to be honest. Being in cover really nerfs them hard.

From wrote:

That said, when I went over all of the lists 400~ going into the london GT this weekend there are a disgusting amount of 3 shield captain supreme commands in EVERY flavor of imperium list.

Wild speculation here, but i imagine shield captains (on bikes) and the imperial guard "infinite command point" nonsense is next on the chopping block for FAQs.

While probably true regarding IG battalions, I don't see them nerfing one of two competitive units in the Custodes codex until CA 2018 when they can also make some of the other units a bit cheaper or better for the same point cost (4++ standard Allarus armor would be great, which would be upped to a 3++ in a detachment). If they nerfed shield captains too hard, I doubt you'd see any list taking any Custodes whatsoever.

What I can see is the complete removal of the Supreme Command detachment or upping the HQs to 4-6 instead of 3-6.

I actually don't understand why the Jetbike Shield Captain is sooooo highly appreciated. Yes, he has preety decent firepower and high mobility, yes he has quite "awesome durability" against anti infantry firepower and those low RoF AT weapons. But he has one fatal issue that is the lack of punch to deal with enemy CC monsters packing lots of attacks.

Taking a Tsons Daemon Princes as an example. Maths shown that A SC on bike charging in with his 6 Str 6 attacks rerolls all to wound rolls, will have a poor 48% chances to dealt out no less than 4 Wounds, i.e. the chance to "half kill" that Daemon Prince is less than 50%!!!!!!!! In reply, the Daemon Prince, even naked, not buffed anything will have 71% chances to deal 4 wounds on the SC, half killing him with the twin daemon claws and 7 attacks. Granted, next turn the Daemon Prince goes first, it is almost certain that the SC will be smited and slashed to death, the DP emerged victory with more than half of original wounds. Do note, such Daemon Prince is only 20pts over the jetbike shield captain!!!!

Neophyte2012 wrote:
I actually don't understand why the Jetbike Shield Captain is sooooo highly appreciated. Yes, he has preety decent firepower and high mobility, yes he has quite "awesome durability" against anti infantry firepower and those low RoF AT weapons. But he has one fatal issue that is the lack of punch to deal with enemy CC monsters packing lots of attacks.

Taking a Tsons Daemon Princes as an example. Maths shown that A SC on bike charging in with his 6 Str 6 attacks rerolls all to wound rolls, will have a poor 48% chances to dealt out no less than 4 Wounds, i.e. the chance to "half kill" that Daemon Prince is less than 50%!!!!!!!! In reply, the Daemon Prince, even naked, not buffed anything will have 71% chances to deal 4 wounds on the SC, half killing him with the twin daemon claws and 7 attacks. Granted, next turn the Daemon Prince goes first, it is almost certain that the SC will be smited and slashed to death, the DP emerged victory with more than half of original wounds. Do note, such Daemon Prince is only 20pts over the jetbike shield captain!!!!

They're both good units. If Chaos Soup was more competitive than Imperial Soup you would likely see a trio of Daemon Princes accompanying every second list.

The Shield Captain on dawn eagle is one of the best things going for imp soup and is a no brainer to play hence its appeal.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
I actually don't understand why the Jetbike Shield Captain is sooooo highly appreciated. Yes, he has preety decent firepower and high mobility, yes he has quite "awesome durability" against anti infantry firepower and those low RoF AT weapons. But he has one fatal issue that is the lack of punch to deal with enemy CC monsters packing lots of attacks.

Taking a Tsons Daemon Princes as an example. Maths shown that A SC on bike charging in with his 6 Str 6 attacks rerolls all to wound rolls, will have a poor 48% chances to dealt out no less than 4 Wounds, i.e. the chance to "half kill" that Daemon Prince is less than 50%!!!!!!!! In reply, the Daemon Prince, even naked, not buffed anything will have 71% chances to deal 4 wounds on the SC, half killing him with the twin daemon claws and 7 attacks. Granted, next turn the Daemon Prince goes first, it is almost certain that the SC will be smited and slashed to death, the DP emerged victory with more than half of original wounds. Do note, such Daemon Prince is only 20pts over the jetbike shield captain!!!!

I generally have to throw two captains at a TS Daemon Prince to kill him... And that won't be enough if he casts Death Hex.

Chaos Soup can run 9 winged daemon princes right now in 2 detachments.

Spartacus wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:
I actually don't understand why the Jetbike Shield Captain is sooooo highly appreciated. Yes, he has preety decent firepower and high mobility, yes he has quite "awesome durability" against anti infantry firepower and those low RoF AT weapons. But he has one fatal issue that is the lack of punch to deal with enemy CC monsters packing lots of attacks.

Taking a Tsons Daemon Princes as an example. Maths shown that A SC on bike charging in with his 6 Str 6 attacks rerolls all to wound rolls, will have a poor 48% chances to dealt out no less than 4 Wounds, i.e. the chance to "half kill" that Daemon Prince is less than 50%!!!!!!!! In reply, the Daemon Prince, even naked, not buffed anything will have 71% chances to deal 4 wounds on the SC, half killing him with the twin daemon claws and 7 attacks. Granted, next turn the Daemon Prince goes first, it is almost certain that the SC will be smited and slashed to death, the DP emerged victory with more than half of original wounds. Do note, such Daemon Prince is only 20pts over the jetbike shield captain!!!!

They're both good units. If Chaos Soup was more competitive than Imperial Soup you would likely see a trio of Daemon Princes accompanying every second list.

They can take up to 9 or even 12 (if not limited to 3 Detachment and higher than 2000pts). 3 each from detachments of Chaos Space Marine, Death Guard, Thousand Sons and Chaos Daemons. 1 or 2 of that detachment is a battalion with some min troops (like Nurglings) as tax and screen, the rest are Supreme Command Detachment. Then let the Flying Circus begin.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
I actually don't understand why the Jetbike Shield Captain is sooooo highly appreciated. Yes, he has preety decent firepower and high mobility, yes he has quite "awesome durability" against anti infantry firepower and those low RoF AT weapons. But he has one fatal issue that is the lack of punch to deal with enemy CC monsters packing lots of attacks.

Taking a Tsons Daemon Princes as an example. Maths shown that A SC on bike charging in with his 6 Str 6 attacks rerolls all to wound rolls, will have a poor 48% chances to dealt out no less than 4 Wounds, i.e. the chance to "half kill" that Daemon Prince is less than 50%!!!!!!!! In reply, the Daemon Prince, even naked, not buffed anything will have 71% chances to deal 4 wounds on the SC, half killing him with the twin daemon claws and 7 attacks. Granted, next turn the Daemon Prince goes first, it is almost certain that the SC will be smited and slashed to death, the DP emerged victory with more than half of original wounds. Do note, such Daemon Prince is only 20pts over the jetbike shield captain!!!!

Your math isn't painting the whole picture.

Look at it this way, Captain shoots and charges the Daemon Prince. He's averaging about 1.3 wounds from the shooting. On the charge, it's 5 attacks at S6 with his buffs. That averages 4.86 wounds. So he's done about 6.16 average wounds. Even without benefiting from charging, he averages 3.25 wounds in melee so about 4.55 wounds total. Throw in a Misericordia and that makes his average closer to 5 (like 4.77 or something). The take away is that in a Captain Vs. DP duel, the model that first gets to fight twice is probably going to win as long as the Captain gets at least one round of shooting off (the DP averages 4.54 wounds on a Captain per combat round). The DP's Smite alone isn't enough to sway this predominant likelihood (though it can get lucky and just end the fight quick).

If the Captain has his 3++ relic, Victor of the Blood Games and/or the -1 to be Hit/5+++ FNP warlord trait, he probably is statistically likely to win the encounter as well.

So it's actually a pretty close melee duel between the two of them. Meanwhile, the Captain offers better shooting AND has Objective Secured while being a little cheaper. The DP has the benefit of being a Psyker. They're very close units in terms of utility but the Captain just has a few extra tools open to him that make him a bit more versatile and thus probably more useful overall.

And bike Captains are great objective grabbers with their fixed 6' advance, ObSec and FLY.

Bike captains are great for late game grabbing objectives for sure.

what needs to be fixed is the supreme command detachment. HQs are designed around the assumption they'll be lynchpins to armies. if you;re taking an army of HQs? yeah thats a problem.