Did the Tactical Reserves rule in FAQ ruin Jormungandr?

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**CelticKodiak**

Just seeing what peoples thoughts are on a Hive Fleet built around deepstriking being possibly held back to the point of uselessness with the changes to tactical reserves.

**Spoletta**

No problem, Jormungard is still one of the best fleets even with this nerf.

Except for the dev bomb, many of the things that you deepstriked with Jormu were better served in later turns.

**AnomanderRake**

...No?

The deepstrike nerf ruined armies that rely heavily on it (Custodes have gone from mostly Codex: Dawneagles to entirely Codex: Dawneagles, Grey Knights are roundly screwed), Tyranids (of any Hivefleet) have units that are cost-effective/good on their base profiles/weapons without needing shenanigans to prop them up.

**BaconCatBug**

No. No other edition allowed for Deep Strike Turn 1, or even assault from Deep Strike.

**StarHunter25**

Drop pods have had t1 deepstrike since at least 5th.. Skyhammer let you t1 deepstrike into assault, granted with assault marines.

**pinecone77**

CelticKodiak wrote:
Just seeing what peoples thoughts are on a Hive Fleet built around deepstriking being possibly held back to the point of uselessness with the changes to tactical reserves.

It's not ruined.

Jormangandr's main strength is tanking and being able to tunnel like crazy.

Those are still in place. GSC might be a good add in for first turn ambush trickery as well.

Otherwise, you can shoot up the foe T1, then tunnel in T2.

**Marmatag**

As a competitive Tyranids player I maintain that this FAQ was very damaging to anything other than heavy shooting Nids. I still run genestealers in my list, because they're the best hope at killing those 3++ custode bike captains and some chaos, but by in large the heavy work is done with shooting.

Jormungandr isn't worthless. Their stratagem is not that great anymore, though.

**JohnnyHell**

I switched to Jormangundr after the FAQ and it’s just fine.

**pm713**

I'm only starting to look at Jormungandr now. What did the FAQ do that made things so much worse?

**Masutaman**

You cannot deepstrike out of your deployment on turn 1. Hurt Jord's cool tunneling rules. You also cannot deepstrike and have the swarmlord grab units and move them again, for a guaranteed charge.

**Marmatag**

Essentially you take Jormungandr if you want +1 cover at all times, assuming you don't fly, advance, or charge.

Their relic is pretty bad, and their stratagem is also pretty bad (now).

So this is situational. If you play on tables like the LGT where there really isn't a way to get cover, it can be solid. Lots of abilities and things ignore cover, though, so it's a hit or miss. And, it won't help you in melee.

Lists that would benefit for being Jormungandr would probably also benefit moreso from being Kronos. Jormungandr does have a way to get 3+ save Genestealers (from shooting) but you do lose swift & deadly, and typically you don't bring GS to be a defensive unit, but big blobs of 3+ are harder to remove than 5+... essentially making you Khorne berzerkers without the mobility stratagems and transports, while still being heavily dependent on synapse.

**JohnnyHell**

Jormungandr’s Warlord Trait can be epic. Dakkafexxes next to a Zoanthrope giving them Ignores Cover are fun.

**Marmatag**

JohnnyHell wrote:
Jormungandr’s Warlord Trait can be epic. Dakkafexxes next to a Zoanthrope giving them Ignores Cover are fun.

Not compared to what you can do to psykers with Kronos, and a potential reroll of 1s army wide in shooting...

**pm713**

Masutaman wrote:
You cannot deepstrike out of your deployment on turn 1. Hurt Jord's cool tunneling rules. You also cannot deepstrike and have the swarmlord grab units and move them again, for a guaranteed charge.

But you can still tunnel things in turn 2 right? I didn't see much that stopped me stuffing half my army into the enemies face on turn 2 when I looked over the rules.

**JohnnyHell**

Marmatag wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
Jormungandr’s Warlord Trait can be epic. Dakkafexxes next to a Zoanthrope giving them Ignores Cover are fun.

Not compared to what you can do to psykers with Kronos, and a potential reroll of 1s army wide in shooting...

It’s almost like the book has multiple viable builds... <strokes beard>

**SHUPPET**

AnomanderRake wrote:...No?

The deepstrike nerf ruined armies that rely heavily on it (Custodes have gone from mostly Codex: Dawneagles to entirely Codex: Dawneagles, Grey Knights are roundly screwed), Tyranids (of any Hivefleet) have units that are cost-effective/good on their base profiles/weapons without needing shenanigans to prop them up.

While I'm not weighing in on whether or not Jorm is "ruined" (doubtful), this logic is really bad. Those exact same units are available to every Hive Fleet, why would you ever take the Jorm, largely a fleet designed to let you deepstrike half your force, if you were no longer planning to deep strike? Nobody is asking if Tyranids are ruined, the question was specifically about Jorm, and your post does more to support that then disprove it.

**Martel732**

Nids did not appear to do well at London, but I still think there's lots of nasty stuff in the codex. The 7 flyrant crutch is just gone. Having a bunch of 2+ save monsters is pretty cool. The real problem is a very common Drukhari build can splinter these things easily by ignoring cover on all their splinter shots.

**SHUPPET**

Martel732 wrote:
Nids did not appear to do well at London, but I still think there's lots of nasty stuff in the codex. The 7 flyrant crutch is just gone. Having a bunch of 2+ save monsters is pretty cool. The real problem is a very common Drukhari build can splinter these things easily by ignoring cover on all their splinter shots.

Yeah, I think it's good that the crutch is gone, but I think you've missed the point of this thread, which isn't about Nids, it's about Jorm. I also think you mean 3+, 2+ is not something Nids do

**Martel732**

When they are Jorm, they do 2+ all the time. The deep strike stuff is just icing now.

**SHUPPET**

Martel732 wrote:
When they are Jorm, they do 2+ all the time. The deep strike stuff is just icing now.

Except for when they advance, fly, or charge, which a fair amount of the dex needs to do, especially without deepstrike. Plenty of ignore cover out there too, so it's not as good as an actual 2+, but I guess you can call it that

**Martel732**

Well, the major sources of ignore cover that I see are Drukari. No one seems to like imperial fists, with Raven Guard available.

But if the drukhari player doesn't take that obsession, spliter becomes very ineffective vs the big bugs, which puts Nids back in business. Splinter kinda sucks vs little bugs.

**Marmatag**

Tyranids will do okay in ITC because we can camp objectives very well, and we're mobile. But in an out-right fight that lasts 5 turns we don't fare well because other armies have better range and other armies have better melee.

**Martel732**

36" heavy venom cannon is still sexy as hell, especially with all the invulns around now.

**Gunzhard**

BaconCatBug wrote:
No. No other edition allowed for Deep Strike Turn 1, or even assault from Deep Strike.

While not accurate, as mentioned earlier... there is a BIG difference between 8th and every other edition:

Shooting (on turn1) is the deadliest it's ever been. Anything can kill anything in 8th... weight of numbers and weight of shots counts for more than it ever has. There are so many more shooting shenanigans now, like shooting twice and rerolls... beyond that there are powers and boosts, orders and of course Stratagems.

But also we have the weakest terrain rules of any edition. Intervening terrain doesn't even exist anymore.

For many, likely most, armies the Tactical Reserves beta is a non factor offensively and a convenient bonus defensively... but for a few armies it's an enormous nerf. Some armies can't survive waiting through 2 rounds of rerolling/ double-shooting madness or link-fired skimmers, or flyers that can be in the back of your deployment zone (turn 1) targeting your characters. Grey Knights and Blood Angels certainly got the worst of it, but definitely some Nid builds.

**Amishprn86**

I havent play Nids in 4 months or so, so i dont remember the wording on Mawloc's, can they still be used turn 1?