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EmpNortonII wrote: I kinda wonder how the traitors forgot how to make vengeance rounds after the Heresy.
Yeah that is very stupid, they still have forge worlds that can upkeep lost technologies like leviathans and fellblades but can't make a single vengeance round.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/18 22:09:10
Do we know vengence rounds where a thing before the Heresy? given the name I assumed they where developed by the loyalists to "Extract vengence against the traitors"
Also given the scouring it's possiable the traitors did indeed lose that tech.
Moving on, I don't think armor peircing rounds would have made much of a differance, they unwittingly allowed the enemy to fortify behind them. they where trapped between the hammer and the anvil.
Perty doesn't get eneugh credit for the dropsite massacre. he turned what would have otherwise likely been a simple route into a "total military disaster"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: Do we know vengence rounds where a thing before the Heresy? given the name I assumed they where developed by the loyalists to "Extract vengence against the traitors"
Also given the scouring it's possiable the traitors did indeed lose that tech.
Moving on, I don't think armor peircing rounds would have made much of a differance, they unwittingly allowed the enemy to fortify behind them. they where trapped between the hammer and the anvil.
Perty doesn't get eneugh credit for the dropsite massacre. he turned what would have otherwise likely been a simple route into a "total military disaster"
Well we know they had armour piercing rounds. The scouring didn't make them lost all the Great Crusade stuff so I doubt they'd lose such a simple piece of tech, doesn't take a genius to develop armour piercing rounds either, we know they have their own forges and the dark mechanicum, so its unlikely they just forgot or can't make their own version. They would have lost no doubt but their bolters had as much an effect as a lasgun against Astartes so It might not have been such a massacre as it was.
Perty never gets his due respect or credit, he is a genius when it comes to siege warfare. Dorn gets all the credit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/19 00:47:21
pm713 wrote: They did just forget. Like they did with most of their equipment like Land Speeders.
No lore says they forgot; that I know of, I can imagine forgetting how to make and upkeep landspeeders due to the grav tech, but armour piercing rounds, nah I don't buy that, that would be pretty stupid lore. The dark mechanicum lose there ability to understand physics and weapons engineering.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/19 01:52:06
Speeders are a pain in the ass to maintain and take a lot of dedicated up keep. Chaos has a lot of resources but stable places to develop or maintain certain kinds of equipment are probably beyond most war bands.
CSM armory kinda suffers from GW trying to to use the same dex to represent both Traitor Legions and Renegade Chapters - both of which should have widely different equipment. So, whenever a question comes up why they don't have this or that the anwser tends to be either "HH didn't have that yet" or "Chapters don't have that lostech by the 41st" or that they can't fix them anymore, you know, because many warbands can't, but of course that ignores the ones that can.
OR, if you want GW writers take on CSMs lack of stuff, ADB wrote this as an answer:
Spoiler:
"Dude, Horus just croaked. What now?"
Abaddon re-tied his topknot. He totally had an idea. "I totally have an idea," he said. The Traitor Legions looked on expectantly. "Here's what we do. We run away."
Many helmed heads nodded. This seemed a wise course of action.
"Good idea," said Erebus.
'Hush." Abaddon frowned at the interruption. "But I think we should leave behind our jetbikes, Dreadclaws, Whirlwinds, Landspeeders - pretty much all anti-grav technology, really - as well as our bikes, attack bikes, and pretty much anything else we've used so far."
Fewer helms nodded this time. "Dude," said Lucius the Eternal, "we might need all that stuff. Some of that stuff is rad."
"Nah, I've made up my mind. Let's just go."
"But..."
"Let's. Just. Go." Abaddon waved the Talon of Horus. Its scythe-blade fingers made clickety-click sounds.
"Okay, let's just go," agreed Lucius.
Kharn wasn't so easily placated. "What about Cyclone Launchers? Because I saw those in Horus Heresy: Collected Visions, so we must be using th--"
"I feel like I'm talking to myself, here." Abaddon pointed a claw at the World Eater. It poked Kharn in the eye.
"Ow, Jesus, man. Okay, okay. We'll go."
"Yeah, that's what I thought."
Abaddon pimp-walked from the room, strutting like he owned the place.
"Hey, what about this conversion beamer?" asked Typhus. "Couldn't we use these in Rogue Trader? These are awesome. They go, like, FWOOOOOSH."
"Leave it!" Abaddon's voice called from the other room. Typhus put it down, grumbling.
Fabius Bile sort of shrugged. "So, uh, can I come with you guys? Because I was checking the passenger lists, and none of the Legions are taking their Apothecaries. I mean... don't you need us?"
Lucius patted his brother on the shoulder. "It's okay, man. We'll allude to the Apothecaries in the background text. I mean, you won't get to ever do anything, but you'll sort of be there in the fluff, y'know? A bit? Maybe?"
"Balls to this. I'm leaving the Legion. I'll make my own rules."
Kharn snorted. "Your rules will be lame for competitive play. Just watch. And people will call you Fabulous Bill."
The Traitors walked from the chamber, out to the landing pad. It was deserted.
"Uh, Abbs?"
Abaddon turned to Ahriman. "S'up?"
"Um." The Thousand Son gestured to the empty landing pad. "Where are all our gunships?"
Abaddon ignored him. "Weren't you red a minute ago?"
"We're blue now. It's... it's this whole... thing. Look, seriously, where are our Thunderhawks?"
"Oh, right. Them." Abaddon toyed with his topknot, swishing it back and forth, like a kitten with a fluffy toy. "We won't need those. We can run everywhere and stuff. Or push Rhinos out of hangers and ride them through the atmosphere. It'll be cool."
The Traitors shared a glance. This wasn't going well. Abaddon noticed their hesitation, and sought to calm them. "Relaaaaax. I'll invent new stuff. Like... spider robots with daemons in, and they have claws and stuff. They'll defile things. Maybe they can be called Defilotrons. It'll be sweet. And they'll have a gun on their chests, and tiny little heads. What? Why are you looking at me like that? You just wait. We'll rock this place all to hell."
I'm confused as to the question posed in the OP. Loyalists had volkite, melta, plasma etc in far greater concentration than in 40k. They also had entire squads armed with autocannon. They had plenty of armour piercing rounds.
They didn't have special issue ammo for the same reason entire armies aren't equipped with it. It's 'special issue'.
You might as well ask, 'If the Loyalists were entirely equipped with plasma guns and lascannons, would it have made a difference?'
Banville wrote: I'm confused as to the question posed in the OP. Loyalists had volkite, melta, plasma etc in far greater concentration than in 40k. They also had entire squads armed with autocannon. They had plenty of armour piercing rounds.
They didn't have special issue ammo for the same reason entire armies aren't equipped with it. It's 'special issue'.
You might as well ask, 'If the Loyalists were entirely equipped with plasma guns and lascannons, would it have made a difference?'
No they didn't, they had specialised squads of amour piercing weaponry, and an odd melta gun etc. in their troops squads, the actual troops boltguns were next to useless and they make up the bulk of the army. Plus the traitors had armour piercing boltgun rounds as well as all those specialised squads. All the traitors had specialised ammo, they planed the massacre, loyalists didn't have time to stock armour piercing rounds on mass or any at all. Its like fielding a battalion in the 40k game and having a squad of hellblasters, lascannons on vehicles etc and every one of your troops had 7th edition st1 weaponry against t4 lol.
"If the Loyalists were entirely equipped with plasma guns and lascannons, would it have made a difference?" this is just a bit of a daft statement.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/08/19 08:02:28
"No they didn't, they had specialised squads of amour piercing weaponry, and an odd melta gun etc. in their troops squads, the actual troops boltguns were next to useless and they make up the bulk of the army. Plus the traitors had armour piercing boltgun rounds as well as all those specialised squads. All the traitors had specialised ammo, they planed the massacre, loyalists didn't have time to stock armour piercing rounds on mass or any at all. Its like fielding a battalion in the 40k game and having a squad of hellblasters, lascannons on vehicles etc and every one of your troops had 7th edition st1 weaponry against t4.
"If the Loyalists were entirely equipped with plasma guns and lascannons, would it have made a difference?" this is just an asinine thing to say. "
The traitors were planning an ambush and had ammo specially developed to kill Loyalists. The Loyalists weren't expecting anything so they didn't. They still had entire squads of armour piercing stuff. And it's not asinine to hypothesise something in response to a hypothetical question that itself was so vague as to mean anything. I mean you could ask, 'If the Traitors didn't have armour piercing ammo, would it have made a difference?' Which actually opens up a whole debate about competency and tactics rather than superior tech.
What your question does is diffuses discussion rather than focusing it. You could list a whole ream of stuff that you could add to the Loyalists and it may have made a difference but its not very productive. Hence my plasma and lascannon remark. You could also say, if Loyalists were all invisible and could fly would it have made a difference.
We know what happened at the Dropsite Massacre and we know the capabilities of both factions. We can take away from those capabilities because there's a start and end point. Just adding random stuff to each force means you can go on forever to a ridiculous level.
I mean, what if the Loyalists had armour piercing ammo? And lasers strapped to their heads.
Instead start stripping away the advantages the traitors had. Might the Loyalists have won if any of those were removed? Were the Loyalist commanders better in a vacuum? Were the Loyalist marines by their very nature disadvantaged in such a situation. One would presume the Salamanders were perfectly suited to such a meat grinder.
But tacking capabilities onto stuff is an exercise in futility.
A real life equivalence might be asking the question, 'If Germany or Japan had a plane that could reach the US, would they have won WW2?' It's such an open question that there's literally no meaningful answer to it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/19 08:35:56
"No they didn't, they had specialised squads of amour piercing weaponry, and an odd melta gun etc. in their troops squads, the actual troops boltguns were next to useless and they make up the bulk of the army. Plus the traitors had armour piercing boltgun rounds as well as all those specialised squads. All the traitors had specialised ammo, they planed the massacre, loyalists didn't have time to stock armour piercing rounds on mass or any at all. Its like fielding a battalion in the 40k game and having a squad of hellblasters, lascannons on vehicles etc and every one of your troops had 7th edition st1 weaponry against t4.
"If the Loyalists were entirely equipped with plasma guns and lascannons, would it have made a difference?" this is just an asinine thing to say. "
The traitors were planning an ambush and had ammo specially developed to kill Loyalists. The Loyalists weren't expecting anything so they didn't. They still had entire squads of armour piercing stuff. And it's not asinine to hypothesise something in response to a hypothetical question that itself was so vague as to mean anything. I mean you could ask, 'If the Traitors didn't have armour piercing ammo, would it have made a difference?' Which actually opens up a whole debate about competency and tactics rather than superior tech.
What your question does is diffuses discussion rather than focusing it. You could list a whole ream of stuff that you could add to the Loyalists and it may have made a difference but its not very productive. Hence my plasma and lascannon remark. You could also say, if Loyalists were all invisible and could fly would it have made a difference.
We know what happened at the Dropsite Massacre and we know the capabilities of both factions. We can take away from those capabilities because there's a start and end point. Just adding random stuff to each force means you can go on forever to a ridiculous level.
I mean, what if the Loyalists had armour piercing ammo? And lasers strapped to their heads.
Instead start stripping away the advantages the traitors had. Might the Loyalists have won if any of those were removed? Were the Loyalist commanders better in a vacuum? Were the Loyalist marines by their very nature disadvantaged in such a situation. One would presume the Salamanders were perfectly suited to such a meat grinder.
But tacking capabilities onto stuff is an exercise in futility.
A real life equivalence might be asking the question, 'If Germany or Japan had a plane that could reach the US, would they have won WW2?' It's such an open question that there's literally no meaningful answer to it.
"What your question does is diffuses discussion rather than focusing it. You could list a whole ream of stuff that you could add to the Loyalists and it may have made a difference but its not very productive. Hence my plasma and lascannon remark. You could also say, if Loyalists were all invisible and could fly would it have made a difference." WTF, wow.
I don't think you know what vague means. "'If the Traitors didn't have armour piercing ammo, would it have made a difference?'" yeah that's pretty much exactly what I said.
The fact loyalists didn't have armour piercing rounds was a catastrophic issue in the battle:
‘Yet at the Urgall massacre, the traitors cut down thousands of legionaries with their bolters,’
continued Binalt. The words sounded cold, but he remembered painfully the sight and sound of his
fellow Raven Guard butchered in the ambush. He had felt helpless, the rounds from his bolt pistol
barely scratching the armour of the traitors while their weapons cut through the Raven Guard without
mercy. ‘I recovered pieces, fragments of the ammunition used by the enemy, from the armour of
legionaries who withdrew successfully.’
Taking the bolter from Agapito, Binalt swapped the magazine for another and gave the weapon
back to the commander.
‘I was also able to procure a few experimental rounds our brothers in the Imperial Fists secured
from Mars before it was embroiled by division. We haven’t got the facilities to replicate them here,
but I think I have devised a close approximation.’
You are just talking nonsense.
"But tacking capabilities onto stuff is an exercise in futility." The only one engaging in futility is YOU.
Removed - BrookM
This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2018/08/20 06:03:53
I fully understand that the traitors had super duper ammo. My point is, adding stuff to the Loyalists is not very productive for discussion because you can just do that ad nauseum.
Because the only answer go your OP is 'Maybe'. And that's it.
Take away the Traitors' ammo, though and now you can hypothesise using what everyone knows about the Legions and their commanders. You could also take away the element of surprise and hypothesise from there.
As a matter of interest, what's your opinion on your own question?
I fully understand that the traitors had super duper ammo. My point is, adding stuff to the Loyalists is not very productive for discussion because you can just do that ad nauseum.
Because the only answer go your OP is 'Maybe'. And that's it.
Take away the Traitors' ammo, though and now you can hypothesise using what everyone knows about the Legions and their commanders. You could also take away the element of surprise and hypothesise from there.
As a matter of interest, what's your opinion on your own question?
"Take away the Traitors' ammo, though and now you can hypothesise using what everyone knows about the Legions and their commanders. You could also take away the element of surprise and hypothesise from there." seriously what are you on about, that is the same thing as I asked, you're seriously just talking nonsense. Saying how different it would have been with armour piercing rounds, obviously implies 'would they have won if they had armour piercing rounds.' If English isn't your first language then you shouldn't try to argue semantics.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/19 09:05:34
No. What you were positing is adding stuff to the Loyalist arsenal. I said to do that is specious.
I suggested that it would be more useful to take away advantages rather than add them. Because then you can work within established boundaries and not have to stretch them.
No. What you were positing is adding stuff to the Loyalist arsenal. I said to do that is specious.
I suggested that it would be more useful to take away advantages rather than add them. Because then you can work within established boundaries and not have to stretch them.
There's a fundamental difference.
Anyway, do you have an opinion on your own OP?
I'm not trying to add anything to they loyalists arsenal. I'm asking what 'would' have happened at the Drop-site massacre 'if' they had armour piercing rounds for their bolters. I'm only trying to start a discussion for the fun of it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/19 09:13:29
err why wouldn't the loyalists have had armor piercing ammo at the dropsite massacure? the idea they didn't take it because they had no idea what they where getting into collapses in the face of reason. The loyalists knew they where moving to engage enemy space marines. The only thing they didn't know is that some of the legions they thought where allies where actually enemies.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: err why wouldn't the loyalists have had armor piercing ammo at the dropsite massacure? the idea they didn't take it because they had no idea what they where getting into collapses in the face of reason. The loyalists knew they where moving to engage enemy space marines. The only thing they didn't know is that some of the legions they thought where allies where actually enemies.
That's what I was thinking too. But the OP is on about the special super duper rounds that the Traitor Legions were packing.
BrianDavion wrote: err why wouldn't the loyalists have had armor piercing ammo at the dropsite massacure? the idea they didn't take it because they had no idea what they where getting into collapses in the face of reason. The loyalists knew they where moving to engage enemy space marines. The only thing they didn't know is that some of the legions they thought where allies where actually enemies.
Because they didn't have time to manufacture them. They didn't need them in the great crusade because they were fighting humans, they didn't have any rounds that were capable of penetrating power armour, they never needed it, they only ever had standard bolt rounds. The traitors however planned the war/battle for years, they came prepared:
"Yet at the Urgall massacre, the traitors cut down thousands of legionaries with their bolters,’
continued Binalt. The words sounded cold, but he remembered painfully the sight and sound of his
fellow Raven Guard butchered in the ambush. He had felt helpless, the rounds from his bolt pistol
barely scratching the armour of the traitors while their weapons cut through the Raven Guard without
mercy. ‘I recovered pieces, fragments of the ammunition used by the enemy, from the armour of
legionaries who withdrew successfully.’
Taking the bolter from Agapito, Binalt swapped the magazine for another and gave the weapon
back to the commander.
‘I was also able to procure a few experimental rounds our brothers in the Imperial Fists secured
from Mars before it was embroiled by division. We haven’t got the facilities to replicate them here,
but I think I have devised a close approximation." - Deliverance lost.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/19 09:54:47
BrianDavion wrote: err why wouldn't the loyalists have had armor piercing ammo at the dropsite massacure? the idea they didn't take it because they had no idea what they where getting into collapses in the face of reason. The loyalists knew they where moving to engage enemy space marines. The only thing they didn't know is that some of the legions they thought where allies where actually enemies.
That's what I was thinking too. But the OP is on about the special super duper rounds that the Traitor Legions were packing.
Yeah to me I never saw the loyalists loss as being due to the traitors having ammo. they pretty much spelled out what happened at the Massacare and it was really a "nightmare doomsday" military scenerio.
The loyalists sent in the raven guard, salamanders, iron hands, word bearers, iron warriors, night lords and alpha legion to crush the Traitors which their intell told them was the Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, and World Eaters. potent forces but the Loyalists belived they had a numerical advantage. However the traitors among them, volenteered to go in on the second wave, eistablishing base camps etc. The end result was when the Loyalists needed to restock their ammo, they where cut to shreads by the fortifications the Iron Warriors Et al had set up in their rear. No amount of special ammo would have saved the loyalists at Istaavan V they where out played and out flanked.
BrianDavion wrote: err why wouldn't the loyalists have had armor piercing ammo at the dropsite massacure? the idea they didn't take it because they had no idea what they where getting into collapses in the face of reason. The loyalists knew they where moving to engage enemy space marines. The only thing they didn't know is that some of the legions they thought where allies where actually enemies.
Because they didn't have time to manufacture them. They didn't need them in the great crusade because they were fighting humans, they didn't have any rounds that were capable of penetrating power armour, they never needed it, they only ever had standard bolt rounds. The traitors however planned the war/battle for years, they came prepared:
"Yet at the Urgall massacre, the traitors cut down thousands of legionaries with their bolters,’
continued Binalt. The words sounded cold, but he remembered painfully the sight and sound of his
fellow Raven Guard butchered in the ambush. He had felt helpless, the rounds from his bolt pistol
barely scratching the armour of the traitors while their weapons cut through the Raven Guard without
mercy. ‘I recovered pieces, fragments of the ammunition used by the enemy, from the armour of
legionaries who withdrew successfully.’
Taking the bolter from Agapito, Binalt swapped the magazine for another and gave the weapon
back to the commander.
‘I was also able to procure a few experimental rounds our brothers in the Imperial Fists secured
from Mars before it was embroiled by division. We haven’t got the facilities to replicate them here,
but I think I have devised a close approximation." - Deliverance lost.
Fair eneugh, still the point stands that it likely wouldn't have made much differance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/19 09:55:23
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: err why wouldn't the loyalists have had armor piercing ammo at the dropsite massacure? the idea they didn't take it because they had no idea what they where getting into collapses in the face of reason. The loyalists knew they where moving to engage enemy space marines. The only thing they didn't know is that some of the legions they thought where allies where actually enemies.
That's what I was thinking too. But the OP is on about the special super duper rounds that the Traitor Legions were packing.
Yeah to me I never saw the loyalists loss as being due to the traitors having ammo. they pretty much spelled out what happened at the Massacare and it was really a "nightmare doomsday" military scenerio.
The loyalists sent in the raven guard, salamanders, iron hands, word bearers, iron warriors, night lords and alpha legion to crush the Traitors which their intell told them was the Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, and World Eaters. potent forces but the Loyalists belived they had a numerical advantage. However the traitors among them, volenteered to go in on the second wave, eistablishing base camps etc. The end result was when the Loyalists needed to restock their ammo, they where cut to shreads by the fortifications the Iron Warriors Et al had set up in their rear. No amount of special ammo would have saved the loyalists at Istaavan V they where out played and out flanked.
BrianDavion wrote: err why wouldn't the loyalists have had armor piercing ammo at the dropsite massacure? the idea they didn't take it because they had no idea what they where getting into collapses in the face of reason. The loyalists knew they where moving to engage enemy space marines. The only thing they didn't know is that some of the legions they thought where allies where actually enemies.
Because they didn't have time to manufacture them. They didn't need them in the great crusade because they were fighting humans, they didn't have any rounds that were capable of penetrating power armour, they never needed it, they only ever had standard bolt rounds. The traitors however planned the war/battle for years, they came prepared:
"Yet at the Urgall massacre, the traitors cut down thousands of legionaries with their bolters,’
continued Binalt. The words sounded cold, but he remembered painfully the sight and sound of his
fellow Raven Guard butchered in the ambush. He had felt helpless, the rounds from his bolt pistol
barely scratching the armour of the traitors while their weapons cut through the Raven Guard without
mercy. ‘I recovered pieces, fragments of the ammunition used by the enemy, from the armour of
legionaries who withdrew successfully.’
Taking the bolter from Agapito, Binalt swapped the magazine for another and gave the weapon
back to the commander.
‘I was also able to procure a few experimental rounds our brothers in the Imperial Fists secured
from Mars before it was embroiled by division. We haven’t got the facilities to replicate them here,
but I think I have devised a close approximation." - Deliverance lost.
Fair eneugh, still the point stands that it likely wouldn't have made much differance.
I never said that the loyalists would ever win. I already said they still would have lost. I just wonder what difference it would have made, obviously a lot, the Legions probably wouldn't have so many casualties they could have retreated in far better terms. The legions might not have been so devastated.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/19 09:58:08
BrianDavion wrote: err why wouldn't the loyalists have had armor piercing ammo at the dropsite massacure? the idea they didn't take it because they had no idea what they where getting into collapses in the face of reason. The loyalists knew they where moving to engage enemy space marines. The only thing they didn't know is that some of the legions they thought where allies where actually enemies.
That's what I was thinking too. But the OP is on about the special super duper rounds that the Traitor Legions were packing.
Yeah to me I never saw the loyalists loss as being due to the traitors having ammo. they pretty much spelled out what happened at the Massacare and it was really a "nightmare doomsday" military scenerio.
The loyalists sent in the raven guard, salamanders, iron hands, word bearers, iron warriors, night lords and alpha legion to crush the Traitors which their intell told them was the Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, and World Eaters. potent forces but the Loyalists belived they had a numerical advantage. However the traitors among them, volenteered to go in on the second wave, eistablishing base camps etc. The end result was when the Loyalists needed to restock their ammo, they where cut to shreads by the fortifications the Iron Warriors Et al had set up in their rear. No amount of special ammo would have saved the loyalists at Istaavan V they where out played and out flanked.
BrianDavion wrote: err why wouldn't the loyalists have had armor piercing ammo at the dropsite massacure? the idea they didn't take it because they had no idea what they where getting into collapses in the face of reason. The loyalists knew they where moving to engage enemy space marines. The only thing they didn't know is that some of the legions they thought where allies where actually enemies.
Because they didn't have time to manufacture them. They didn't need them in the great crusade because they were fighting humans, they didn't have any rounds that were capable of penetrating power armour, they never needed it, they only ever had standard bolt rounds. The traitors however planned the war/battle for years, they came prepared:
"Yet at the Urgall massacre, the traitors cut down thousands of legionaries with their bolters,’
continued Binalt. The words sounded cold, but he remembered painfully the sight and sound of his
fellow Raven Guard butchered in the ambush. He had felt helpless, the rounds from his bolt pistol
barely scratching the armour of the traitors while their weapons cut through the Raven Guard without
mercy. ‘I recovered pieces, fragments of the ammunition used by the enemy, from the armour of
legionaries who withdrew successfully.’
Taking the bolter from Agapito, Binalt swapped the magazine for another and gave the weapon
back to the commander.
‘I was also able to procure a few experimental rounds our brothers in the Imperial Fists secured
from Mars before it was embroiled by division. We haven’t got the facilities to replicate them here,
but I think I have devised a close approximation." - Deliverance lost.
Fair eneugh, still the point stands that it likely wouldn't have made much differance.
I never said that the loyalists would ever win. I already said they still would have lost.
yup and I'm just saying it would have made precisely zero differance. the fight wasn't won by special ammo, it was won by letting the hostile iron warriors build a fortress in their rear
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: err why wouldn't the loyalists have had armor piercing ammo at the dropsite massacure? the idea they didn't take it because they had no idea what they where getting into collapses in the face of reason. The loyalists knew they where moving to engage enemy space marines. The only thing they didn't know is that some of the legions they thought where allies where actually enemies.
That's what I was thinking too. But the OP is on about the special super duper rounds that the Traitor Legions were packing.
Yeah to me I never saw the loyalists loss as being due to the traitors having ammo. they pretty much spelled out what happened at the Massacare and it was really a "nightmare doomsday" military scenerio.
The loyalists sent in the raven guard, salamanders, iron hands, word bearers, iron warriors, night lords and alpha legion to crush the Traitors which their intell told them was the Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, and World Eaters. potent forces but the Loyalists belived they had a numerical advantage. However the traitors among them, volenteered to go in on the second wave, eistablishing base camps etc. The end result was when the Loyalists needed to restock their ammo, they where cut to shreads by the fortifications the Iron Warriors Et al had set up in their rear. No amount of special ammo would have saved the loyalists at Istaavan V they where out played and out flanked.
BrianDavion wrote: err why wouldn't the loyalists have had armor piercing ammo at the dropsite massacure? the idea they didn't take it because they had no idea what they where getting into collapses in the face of reason. The loyalists knew they where moving to engage enemy space marines. The only thing they didn't know is that some of the legions they thought where allies where actually enemies.
Because they didn't have time to manufacture them. They didn't need them in the great crusade because they were fighting humans, they didn't have any rounds that were capable of penetrating power armour, they never needed it, they only ever had standard bolt rounds. The traitors however planned the war/battle for years, they came prepared:
"Yet at the Urgall massacre, the traitors cut down thousands of legionaries with their bolters,’
continued Binalt. The words sounded cold, but he remembered painfully the sight and sound of his
fellow Raven Guard butchered in the ambush. He had felt helpless, the rounds from his bolt pistol
barely scratching the armour of the traitors while their weapons cut through the Raven Guard without
mercy. ‘I recovered pieces, fragments of the ammunition used by the enemy, from the armour of
legionaries who withdrew successfully.’
Taking the bolter from Agapito, Binalt swapped the magazine for another and gave the weapon
back to the commander.
‘I was also able to procure a few experimental rounds our brothers in the Imperial Fists secured
from Mars before it was embroiled by division. We haven’t got the facilities to replicate them here,
but I think I have devised a close approximation." - Deliverance lost.
Fair eneugh, still the point stands that it likely wouldn't have made much differance.
I never said that the loyalists would ever win. I already said they still would have lost.
yup and I'm just saying it would have made precisely zero differance. the fight wasn't won by special ammo, it was won by letting the hostile iron warriors build a fortress in their rear
I just wonder what difference it would have made, obviously a lot, the Legions probably wouldn't have so many casualties they could have retreated in far better terms. The legions might not have been so devastated. When they were retreating they were cut down, they had no suppressing fire really.
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The whole thing was doomed from the start, really. Much like Operation Market Garden. I've always assumed the Drop site Massacre was inspired by the British paras being hammered at Arnhem. Poor intelligence, surrounded, cut down while retreating etc. The betrayal part is obviously missing.
BrianDavion wrote: they where cut down when retreating because they where, unbeknowest to them, retreating into hostile fortifications.
Nope the Urgall depression was where they retreated. They were surrounded and its when the Iron Warriors turned their guns towards the Loyalists. For instance what if Vulken never got captured by Cruze?
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There's even a depression around Oosterbeek where a company of Paratroopers were surrounded and had to fight their way out. Loads of corollaries.
I don't think special issue ammo would have made a difference. Maybe it would have inflicted greater casualties on the traitors. Enough to seriously alter events? I don't think so.
