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We have two Dwarven armies in our group. Mine and a friend's, he is pretty stuck on 6.5, I don't really care other than the anvil should be in magic imo. (which we've house ruled 6th's anvil into 6.5, so that's a non issue)
What is the community's general thoughts on which book "should" be played? Ravening Hordes is not an option.

I think the 6.5 throws some fundamentals out the window as far as composition. I'm personally not a fan. Longbeards being upgrades to units, Unlocks to basically spam non spammable options like an army that is literally more Longbeards than anything else. It's like someone made an appendix list with no negatives.

I felt it burdened the game a lot to have this super hard anvil spells in the shooting phase. It added a lot to my disdain of playing against dwarves back then.

The 6.5 book wasn't that bad. Despite what people think you could NOT have more units of Longbeards than Warriors. It made the Organ Gun a reliable weapon without it being over powered. The Anvil of Doom got much better but was only broken with Thorek Ironbrow, because it was so easy for him to do the Ancient Power Runes. Compared to Skaven, Lizards, and Chaos it was a mild book. Top of the middle tier.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
The 6.5 book wasn't that bad.

It established the Army Book precedent for 7th, which is universally considered bad. It may not have been the WORST, but it threw the balanced composition of army lists on its ear before other books threw it out the window.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
Despite what people think you could NOT have more units of Longbeards than Warriors.

Page #29 Under the Dwarf Lords and Thanes entry, paragraph entitled Royal Blood.

"Dwarf Lords (but not Thanes) are of Royal Blood. This special rule is used in conjunction with the Bodyguard special rule - refer to the Hammerers entry for details.

In addition, if an army contains a character of Royal Blood, it may have one more unit of Longbeards than it does Warriors. These represent the Dwarfs of the character's own clan."

What people think is irrelevant, it's right there in black and white.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
It made the Organ Gun a reliable weapon without it being over powered.

Basically having an Engineer special rule inbuilt with no cost added is damn near the exact definition of overpowered. Did any other war machines have similar rules? Nope? Overpowered.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
The Anvil of Doom got much better but was only broken with Thorek Ironbrow, because it was so easy for him to do the Ancient Power Runes.

Take ANY race and make their spells immune to dispel. Can you even PRICE that in points? No, you can't. I'd have been better if the Anvil had bound spells that could be recast with an attempt at a miscast for subsequent casting. THAT would have been better than how they handled it. It doesn't matter whether one character is better at the Anvil spells than the other, it's a design precedent that's completely out of whack with the rest of the edition.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
Compared to Skaven, Lizards, and Chaos it was a mild book. Top of the middle tier.

You played different Warhammer than me, apparently. Once that book hit, it was easily top third of the books out there, and didn't really get put into its place until the... fun of 7th edition books. The only thing it did that would be considered not amping the book up was dropping the Handguns back down to Move Or Fire. Also this was the change from 0-1.

 Just Tony wrote:

It established the Army Book precedent for 7th, which is universally considered bad. It may not have been the WORST, but it threw the balanced composition of army lists on its ear before other books threw it out the window.

Hardley, that was started by Bretonnians then Storm of Chaos extended it. The tone was further set by Ogres and Wood Elves.

 Just Tony wrote:

Page #29 Under the Dwarf Lords and Thanes entry, paragraph entitled Royal Blood.

"Dwarf Lords (but not Thanes) are of Royal Blood. This special rule is used in conjunction with the Bodyguard special rule - refer to the Hammerers entry for details.

In addition, if an army contains a character of Royal Blood, it may have one more unit of Longbeards than it does Warriors. These represent the Dwarfs of the character's own clan."

What people think is irrelevant, it's right there in black and white.

That is my mistake, but to be fair if your were playing competitively in those days and taking a Lord you were doing something wrong. Rune Lords were much better for magical defense and you hardly ever got the opportunity to use a Dwarf Lord in combat. Most enemies would run from them or shoot their units to death. You can reface all you want but a 6 inch charge isn't going to catch anyone. With the extra dispel dice and magic being big in 6th-8th, the Rune Lords was a much better General choice. Thanes were a better option for boosting up infantry. Lords didn't really become an viable option until 8th, and even then the Rune Lords was better.

Also Longbeards were not worth the extra investment, 11pts a model over the 8 for a Warrior is a big deal once you price up a whole unit. The extra to Strength was nice but hardly necessary, with Initiative 2 dwarf infantry was better off with great weapons. The extra to WS was pretty much meh. In the days that this book was out you usually only saw 1 large infantry block and several units of Thunderers. If you are going to spend 11pts per model you may as well go 12 for Hammerers and get Stubborn out of it. Otherwise if you are savings points Warriors will do everything Longbeards can do but cheaper.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
It made the Organ Gun a reliable weapon without it being over powered.

Basically having an Engineer special rule inbuilt with no cost added is damn near the exact definition of overpowered. Did any other war machines have similar rules? Nope? Overpowered.

This is an over exaggeration of the situation. You could only reroll the artillery die if it was not a misfire. The reroll is necessary and a fair trade of because the a 2 or 4 on the artillery die could be the difference between a complete disaster of a phase and holding the enemy at bay. A misfire on the first roll was still a decent chance of blowing up a 120pt Rare slot. The reroll is part of the reason the machine is a rare slot. For the points that it cost it needed something because you couldn't put runes on it. Not nearly as broken as Skaven war machines or Salamanders which just ate skinks. Honestly have you ever seen a Warp Lightning Cannon in action The Organ Gun is small potatoes in comparison. It's exactly what a Rare slot should be, good but not broken.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
The Anvil of Doom got much better but was only broken with Thorek Ironbrow, because it was so easy for him to do the Ancient Power Runes.

Take ANY race and make their spells immune to dispel. Can you even PRICE that in points? No, you can't. I'd have been better if the Anvil had bound spells that could be recast with an attempt at a miscast for subsequent casting. THAT would have been better than how they handled it. It doesn't matter whether one character is better at the Anvil spells than the other, it's a design precedent that's completely out of whack with the rest of the edition.

You are missing the point. The Anvil of Doom is NOT magic, it is a war machine. As such it had a misfire chart. There was a decent chance with a regular Rune Smith that in one roll you could lose a minimum of 315 points and there was no way to place runes on it for protection. Compared to magic the anvil was a lot more risky to use and without Thorek Ironbrow not nearly as reliable. The anvil and organ guns was about the only thing you had against highly mobile armies such as Wood Elves that never got into combat and would just circle and shoot/cast.

 Just Tony wrote:

You played different Warhammer than me, apparently. Once that book hit, it was easily top third of the books out there, and didn't really get put into its place until the... fun of 7th edition books. The only thing it did that would be considered not amping the book up was dropping the Handguns back down to Move Or Fire. Also this was the change from 0-1.

That is entirely possible. Back in those days, as my wife can testify, I played a lot. I played at Grand Tournaments up and down the east coast. I also played at the HQ Bunker where they had 2 tournaments a month with a lot of the top staff players and the guys that play tested the books. It was a heavily competitive scene. Trust me nothing in the Dwarf book can compare to the 21 power dice Skaven and Tzeentch lists. Compared to Skaven war machines, the Cold Blooded Lizardmen, highly mobile wood elves, and 0 drawbacks for every good in Chaos, this book was as I said top of the middle tier. It could certainly be competitive, but hardly broken.



I may have a small idea of what I am talking about

21 power dice skaven list you say? i love the warp cannons, so much fun when they work. I have had many a game where the army suicided though lol.

What was the issue with the bretonnians? I find them great if you get the charge, terrible if not. Every list seems to have its overpoweree something.

 brr-icy wrote:
21 power dice skaven list you say? i love the warp cannons, so much fun when they work. I have had many a game where the army suicided though lol.

What was the issue with the bretonnians? I find them great if you get the charge, terrible if not. Every list seems to have its overpoweree something.

Oh yes there were some nasty power dice lists back in the day.


Bretonnias weren't broken but they were among the beginning of shift away from balanced lists to more elite lists with army wide special rules. The prayer and faster charge made them annoying to be sure but not over powered. The book also made their infantry practically worthless.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

It established the Army Book precedent for 7th, which is universally considered bad. It may not have been the WORST, but it threw the balanced composition of army lists on its ear before other books threw it out the window.

Hardley, that was started by Bretonnians then Storm of Chaos extended it. The tone was further set by Ogres and Wood Elves.

Bretonnians didn't drastically shift elite units to Core, eliminate 0-1, or significantly up the stat line of any units. So they really did nothing that the RH or halfway book didn't do except redefine the lance and make Peasants borderline worthless. Oh, and saturate the lore with Grimdark while eliminating the awesome Camelot theme.

Storm Of Chaos lists were exclusive to that campaign, and were permission only from there on out. I viewed them as what they were: appendix lists with little restraint.

Ogre Kingdoms as an army were brand new and we really had no metric to hold it to.

Wood Elves? I'll give you that, and I will retract that Dwarfs were the starting point for the mindset. It's been a long time since I faced a Wood Elf army, and totally forgot about its... potency.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

Page #29 Under the Dwarf Lords and Thanes entry, paragraph entitled Royal Blood.

"Dwarf Lords (but not Thanes) are of Royal Blood. This special rule is used in conjunction with the Bodyguard special rule - refer to the Hammerers entry for details.

In addition, if an army contains a character of Royal Blood, it may have one more unit of Longbeards than it does Warriors. These represent the Dwarfs of the character's own clan."

What people think is irrelevant, it's right there in black and white.

That is my mistake, but to be fair if your were playing competitively in those days and taking a Lord you were doing something wrong. Rune Lords were much better for magical defense and you hardly ever got the opportunity to use a Dwarf Lord in combat. Most enemies would run from them or shoot their units to death. You can reface all you want but a 6 inch charge isn't going to catch anyone. With the extra dispel dice and magic being big in 6th-8th, the Rune Lords was a much better General choice. Thanes were a better option for boosting up infantry. Lords didn't really become an viable option until 8th, and even then the Rune Lords was better.

Also Longbeards were not worth the extra investment, 11pts a model over the 8 for a Warrior is a big deal once you price up a whole unit. The extra to Strength was nice but hardly necessary, with Initiative 2 dwarf infantry was better off with great weapons. The extra to WS was pretty much meh. In the days that this book was out you usually only saw 1 large infantry block and several units of Thunderers. If you are going to spend 11pts per model you may as well go 12 for Hammerers and get Stubborn out of it. Otherwise if you are savings points Warriors will do everything Longbeards can do but cheaper.

We'll leave meta debates away, as it's pretty obvious my area's meta was different. We saw cheaply equipped Runesmiths if anything where I was, if all you were looking for was dispel.

Not worth the extra investment? The SECOND I get done typing up the BatRep from this weekend, I want you to read it. Panic did more to beat High Elves in that game than damage output from Beastmen and Minotaurs. Plus, any stat increase is worth it since the difference in points is minimal. Also, the "usually only saw" sort of thing is back to meta dependent, and we can definitely agree to disagree on that point.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
It made the Organ Gun a reliable weapon without it being over powered.

Basically having an Engineer special rule inbuilt with no cost added is damn near the exact definition of overpowered. Did any other war machines have similar rules? Nope? Overpowered.

This is an over exaggeration of the situation. You could only reroll the artillery die if it was not a misfire. The reroll is necessary and a fair trade of because the a 2 or 4 on the artillery die could be the difference between a complete disaster of a phase and holding the enemy at bay. A misfire on the first roll was still a decent chance of blowing up a 120pt Rare slot. The reroll is part of the reason the machine is a rare slot. For the points that it cost it needed something because you couldn't put runes on it. Not nearly as broken as Skaven war machines or Salamanders which just ate skinks. Honestly have you ever seen a Warp Lightning Cannon in action The Organ Gun is small potatoes in comparison. It's exactly what a Rare slot should be, good but not broken.

By that logic, shouldn't EVERY war machine have built in rerolls? You kind of bypassed that completely, and we look at the precedents set by this book that were taken to the nth degree in the later books of 7th, and I'd say my assessment of the OP nature of it is correct.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
The Anvil of Doom got much better but was only broken with Thorek Ironbrow, because it was so easy for him to do the Ancient Power Runes.

Take ANY race and make their spells immune to dispel. Can you even PRICE that in points? No, you can't. I'd have been better if the Anvil had bound spells that could be recast with an attempt at a miscast for subsequent casting. THAT would have been better than how they handled it. It doesn't matter whether one character is better at the Anvil spells than the other, it's a design precedent that's completely out of whack with the rest of the edition.

You are missing the point. The Anvil of Doom is NOT magic, it is a war machine. As such it had a misfire chart. There was a decent chance with a regular Rune Smith that in one roll you could lose a minimum of 315 points and there was no way to place runes on it for protection. Compared to magic the anvil was a lot more risky to use and without Thorek Ironbrow not nearly as reliable. The anvil and organ guns was about the only thing you had against highly mobile armies such as Wood Elves that never got into combat and would just circle and shoot/cast.

Stone Trowers.
Cannons
Thunderers

ALL items that can whittle away at the armies you mentioned.

Also, can you name any other War Machines that dish out damage/abilities like the Anvil?

The Anvil is a device that ONLY a Runelord can use to rain down lightning and boulders onto the enemy. That's magic, pure and simple. In the description of the Anvil it specifies that THIS is how Dwarfs use magic since they don't have the innate sorcery ability of other races. It's magic. Period. It should function like the REST of magic. Period.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

You played different Warhammer than me, apparently. Once that book hit, it was easily top third of the books out there, and didn't really get put into its place until the... fun of 7th edition books. The only thing it did that would be considered not amping the book up was dropping the Handguns back down to Move Or Fire. Also this was the change from 0-1.

That is entirely possible. Back in those days, as my wife can testify, I played a lot. I played at Grand Tournaments up and down the east coast. I also played at the HQ Bunker where they had 2 tournaments a month with a lot of the top staff players and the guys that play tested the books. It was a heavily competitive scene. Trust me nothing in the Dwarf book can compare to the 21 power dice Skaven and Tzeentch lists. Compared to Skaven war machines, the Cold Blooded Lizardmen, highly mobile wood elves, and 0 drawbacks for every good in Chaos, this book was as I said top of the middle tier. It could certainly be competitive, but hardly broken.



I may have a small idea of what I am talking about

Impressive trophies.

Now back to the rest. I won't debate that last line about Chaos at all, I'm on record on SEVERAL forums railing against them.

As for the rest? I think it's more to do with potential damage output than actual damage output. Green Fire is terrifying on paper until you realize that the actual damage output is possibly a third of your unit if equipped with Great Weapons. Once again, I will have you look at my game from this weekend once I have time to post it. Some highlights, though:

His Silver Helms charged my Beast Herd with the mix of 12 Gors and 8 Ungors. By every application of the Internet Hyperbole Metric which is expunged in EVERY forum on the net, I should have taken enough damage to prevent me from even being able to fight back. The reality? Two Gors died and I failed to wound any Silver Helms in return, then I passed my break test. That's about as atypical compared to what the netlisters would have you believe as it gets. And the Silver Helms had a rank! They came in with +2 Combat Res, picking up 3 from the combat and eventual outnumbering, yet this still happened. It's actually typical of what I saw ANY time cav charged without a blender lord in it, but you won't ever hear that on a forum.

His Lord on Dragon equipped with the Armor of Protection (Heavy armor, 5+ Ward) and the Blade of Sea Gold (No Saves) charged a unit of 2 Minotaurs and a Doombull (Damage attrition is a bitch), and he was equipped with the Axes of Khorgor (+1 A, reroll misses to hit), Heavy Armor, and Crown of Horns (5+ Ward, reroll break check). He issued a challenge which my Doombull couldn't avoid. How would you think that played out? If you said 1 wound on the Doombull, you'd be right. It took 2 turns for the Lord AND DRAGON to take down that Doombull. By every IHM (see above) I shouldn't have lasted the FIRST round.

There can be no zero sum results in any situation that involves random dice rolls. Magic is the same. I think the most that was done damage wise in the Magic phase of that game was 4 wounds from Fury of Khaine (2D6 S4 hits, 24" range, 8+ to cast).

 Just Tony wrote:

Storm Of Chaos lists were exclusive to that campaign, and were permission only from there on out. I viewed them as what they were: appendix lists with little restraint.

Ah, think again. The Storm of Chaos lists were allowed at all of the major GTs and GW Rogue Trader Tournaments. They were even allowed part way into 7th.

 Just Tony wrote:

Not worth the extra investment? The SECOND I get done typing up the BatRep from this weekend, I want you to read it. Panic did more to beat High Elves in that game than damage output from Beastmen and Minotaurs. Plus, any stat increase is worth it since the difference in points is minimal. Also, the "usually only saw" sort of thing is back to meta dependent, and we can definitely agree to disagree on that point.

Panic is not as fickle for Dwarfs as it is other armies. Dwarfs start with a base 9 Leadership and are Toughness 4 on top of that. A Thane takes or the General nearby takes them to Ld 10. Dwarfs do not succumb to Panic as often as other races so the Longbeard special rule is not worth the extra points. I played from a lot in 6-8 and can count on one hand the number of times I saw a Dwarf line collapse due to panic. They don't die as fast as T3 armies and have the leadership to pass even if you have to take the check. The extra 3pts per model you are spending to make a unit of warriors is wasted. An average 20 man block is going to cost you an extra 60 points that could be better spent elsewhere. Part of the reason Longbeards were moved from an Special to an upgrade was the fact that they were hardly ever used yet as part of the lore it was felt that they needed to be in the book somehow.

 Just Tony wrote:

By that logic, shouldn't EVERY war machine have built in rerolls? You kind of bypassed that completely, and we look at the precedents set by this book that were taken to the nth degree in the later books of 7th, and I'd say my assessment of the OP nature of it is correct.

A war machine that takes up a Rare slot should have something special to it. Not that different than the Hellblaster Volley Gun, it still has a good chance to fire it's other barrels if it rolls a misfire. Also just like the Warp Lightning cannon doesn't need line of sight and can shoot through trees. Salamanders get to eat a Skink if they misfire, does that make them broken, no, it is just a special rule for the unit. Being able to reroll a die on a 120pt warmachine is in no way broken. You still have a 1 in 6 chance it will do nothing.

 Just Tony wrote:

The Anvil is a device that ONLY a Runelord can use to rain down lightning and boulders onto the enemy. That's magic, pure and simple. In the description of the Anvil it specifies that THIS is how Dwarfs use magic since they don't have the innate sorcery ability of other races. It's magic. Period. It should function like the REST of magic. Period.

NO it's not, it is a War Machine. If you are going to rest your laurels on the fluff then go all the way, Dwarfs do not use Magic. Otherwise leave fluff in the book and stick to rules as rules, it's a war machine and has all the same drawbacks of one. With a regular Rune Smith the anvil just isn't that bad. It only has two decent Runes and to attempt them on Ancient Power is risky. Striking the rune incorrectly could blow up 315 points, casting magic is not nearly as risky.

 Just Tony wrote:

His Silver Helms charged my Beast Herd with the mix of 12 Gors and 8 Ungors. By every application of the Internet Hyperbole Metric which is expunged in EVERY forum on the net, I should have taken enough damage to prevent me from even being able to fight back. The reality? Two Gors died and I failed to wound any Silver Helms in return, then I passed my break test. That's about as atypical compared to what the netlisters would have you believe as it gets. And the Silver Helms had a rank! They came in with +2 Combat Res, picking up 3 from the combat and eventual outnumbering, yet this still happened. It's actually typical of what I saw ANY time cav charged without a blender lord in it, but you won't ever hear that on a forum.

This does not surprise me at all. Silver Helms are among the worst cav in the game. They have weak armour, T3, and can only get up to strength 5 on the charge. If your friend charged a naked unit of Silver Helms into the front of any infantry block, he has already lost. The standard 20 man block is starting with a combat score of 5 (standard, 3 ranks, and out number), otherwise known at "The Magic 5". That means a 10 block of Cave has to be sure they can cause at least 3 wounds and not take any just to tie. Any T3, S3 cav unit needs to add something to tip the balance their way, such as a hero or a banner. Silver helms are only decent with the Battle Banner for + D6 or a jacked up hero, or hit them in the flank. Otherwise they will bounce off things and get pummeled just as in your example. I don't know what "netlisters" you are talking about, no one who has any idea what they are talking about would advocate taking naked Silver Helms head first into an infantry block.

 Just Tony wrote:

His Lord on Dragon equipped with the Armor of Protection (Heavy armor, 5+ Ward) and the Blade of Sea Gold (No Saves) charged a unit of 2 Minotaurs and a Doombull (Damage attrition is a bitch), and he was equipped with the Axes of Khorgor (+1 A, reroll misses to hit), Heavy Armor, and Crown of Horns (5+ Ward, reroll break check). He issued a challenge which my Doombull couldn't avoid. How would you think that played out? If you said 1 wound on the Doombull, you'd be right. It took 2 turns for the Lord AND DRAGON to take down that Doombull. By every IHM (see above) I shouldn't have lasted the FIRST round.

Again this is another sign that the game was over at list building. That Lord, Dragon or no, is going bounce off of anything T5 or higher. The Blade of Sea Gold doesn't mean spit if he can't wound anything. That guy was dead the second he declared the charge. Let's think about this S4 elf to T5 Doombull = dead elf. I don't know why you think the bull would only last a round, the stats are against the elf and just a bad move on that player. Ridden monsters seem really cool on paper but they are usually not worth their points and were hardly ever seen in competitive play. Even if playing casually I wouldn't take one unless it was 3K or more, especially in 6th or 7th ed. 8th helped them with the stomp but in 6th they are just a big target. It's like having a big sign on your character that says "please shoot me with a cannonball." Again you have to keep the Magic 5 in mind. A ridden monster has no ranks and no standard, so that means you need to cause 5 wounds to tie most units and 6 to beat them. When you have character with 4 attacks and a monster with 4-6 there isn't a lot of room for error. In 6th & 7th a ridden monster is really only good for picking on small units, hitting low toughness troops in the flank, and hunting war machines, otherwise leave them at home.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

Storm Of Chaos lists were exclusive to that campaign, and were permission only from there on out. I viewed them as what they were: appendix lists with little restraint.

Ah, think again. The Storm of Chaos lists were allowed at all of the major GTs and GW Rogue Trader Tournaments. They were even allowed part way into 7th.

Not my experience at the time, as I had a hell of a time getting anyone to allow Grimgor's 'ard Boyz in my area, but I will defer to your experience in your area, and not dispute.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

Not worth the extra investment? The SECOND I get done typing up the BatRep from this weekend, I want you to read it. Panic did more to beat High Elves in that game than damage output from Beastmen and Minotaurs. Plus, any stat increase is worth it since the difference in points is minimal. Also, the "usually only saw" sort of thing is back to meta dependent, and we can definitely agree to disagree on that point.

Panic is not as fickle for Dwarfs as it is other armies. Dwarfs start with a base 9 Leadership and are Toughness 4 on top of that. A Thane takes or the General nearby takes them to Ld 10. Dwarfs do not succumb to Panic as often as other races so the Longbeard special rule is not worth the extra points. I played from a lot in 6-8 and can count on one hand the number of times I saw a Dwarf line collapse due to panic. They don't die as fast as T3 armies and have the leadership to pass even if you have to take the check. The extra 3pts per model you are spending to make a unit of warriors is wasted. An average 20 man block is going to cost you an extra 60 points that could be better spent elsewhere. Part of the reason Longbeards were moved from an Special to an upgrade was the fact that they were hardly ever used yet as part of the lore it was felt that they needed to be in the book somehow.

Personally I ran my Dwarfs with walls of HW/S Warriors, so I don't find it an issue. I don't know how this person runs his, but regardless immunity to Panic isn't a wash, and shouldn't be handwaived away because you see a mathematically superior build. Someone somewhere will run that many Longbeards off that list, and some army somewhere that depends on what disruption it can get from Panic will be denied that. Or, since we're throwing the T4 card so readily, take an Empire army with lots of Handguns. They will wound Dwarfs much easier than units with Bows, and will evoke Panic checks more often. It doesn't matter how LITTLE it affects the game, it's the precedent set, and the books immediately after this show I'm right.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

By that logic, shouldn't EVERY war machine have built in rerolls? You kind of bypassed that completely, and we look at the precedents set by this book that were taken to the nth degree in the later books of 7th, and I'd say my assessment of the OP nature of it is correct.

A war machine that takes up a Rare slot should have something special to it. Not that different than the Hellblaster Volley Gun, it still has a good chance to fire it's other barrels if it rolls a misfire. Also just like the Warp Lightning cannon doesn't need line of sight and can shoot through trees. Salamanders get to eat a Skink if they misfire, does that make them broken, no, it is just a special rule for the unit. Being able to reroll a die on a 120pt warmachine is in no way broken. You still have a 1 in 6 chance it will do nothing.

Once again, we get to precedents. When you have one war machine that can suddenly break a game mechanic without really paying for it, you will have books afterwards applying that logic to other books. THEN you look at the books behind it, and see how skewed that is with the rest of the war machines out there. YES, the Warp Cannon has a rule that is fairly eyebrow raising, but in the end the MOST it can wound from your unit is however many ranks you have. Ultimately not game breaking compared to a ballistic machine that can potentially go from 2 hits to 10 hits on a whim. EVEN IF 10 hits doesn't seem that game breaking compared to the potential output of a Hellbaster, for instance, the Hellblaster would be flat out broken if it had inbuilt rerolls. The inability to see that is baffling.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

The Anvil is a device that ONLY a Runelord can use to rain down lightning and boulders onto the enemy. That's magic, pure and simple. In the description of the Anvil it specifies that THIS is how Dwarfs use magic since they don't have the innate sorcery ability of other races. It's magic. Period. It should function like the REST of magic. Period.

NO it's not, it is a War Machine. If you are going to rest your laurels on the fluff then go all the way, Dwarfs do not use Magic. Otherwise leave fluff in the book and stick to rules as rules, it's a war machine and has all the same drawbacks of one. With a regular Rune Smith the anvil just isn't that bad. It only has two decent Runes and to attempt them on Ancient Power is risky. Striking the rune incorrectly could blow up 315 points, casting magic is not nearly as risky.

So what would those Runic weapons and armor be, hmmm? Certainly not magic, even though expressly stated as such. Dwarven magic is Runic magic, pure and simple. Casting Runes on the Anvil is no different than casting from a Wizard, it just requires a separate model from the character. Tell you what, you find me ANY war machine that fires buffs in the Shooting Phase and I'll recant my position.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

His Silver Helms charged my Beast Herd with the mix of 12 Gors and 8 Ungors. By every application of the Internet Hyperbole Metric which is expunged in EVERY forum on the net, I should have taken enough damage to prevent me from even being able to fight back. The reality? Two Gors died and I failed to wound any Silver Helms in return, then I passed my break test. That's about as atypical compared to what the netlisters would have you believe as it gets. And the Silver Helms had a rank! They came in with +2 Combat Res, picking up 3 from the combat and eventual outnumbering, yet this still happened. It's actually typical of what I saw ANY time cav charged without a blender lord in it, but you won't ever hear that on a forum.

This does not surprise me at all. Silver Helms are among the worst cav in the game. They have weak armour, T3, and can only get up to strength 5 on the charge. If your friend charged a naked unit of Silver Helms into the front of any infantry block, he has already lost. The standard 20 man block is starting with a combat score of 5 (standard, 3 ranks, and out number), otherwise known at "The Magic 5". That means a 10 block of Cave has to be sure they can cause at least 3 wounds and not take any just to tie. Any T3, S3 cav unit needs to add something to tip the balance their way, such as a hero or a banner. Silver helms are only decent with the Battle Banner for + D6 or a jacked up hero, or hit them in the flank. Otherwise they will bounce off things and get pummeled just as in your example. I don't know what "netlisters" you are talking about, no one who has any idea what they are talking about would advocate taking naked Silver Helms head first into an infantry block.

Look up my posting history on Warseer before I got banned. SEVERAL threads over there involving the whole "5 man cav on the charge beats everything, that's why all you ever saw was 1" shuffles and MSU" sort of hyperbole. I don't subscribe to that, and posted the math that supported that a 5 man cav unit would be SO behind the 8 ball that it was folly to think it would work. Me posting my point about this from the battle is more about what COULD happen with random dice battles than what projected output people think MAY happen.

And minor nitpick to defend my brother, who was my opponent. The Beast Herd unit he charged had no armor and could only ever get +2 Rank bonus because of that Mob rule they had. So it wasn't as catastrophic an idea as you would think. That, and with the Gors not having much in the way of ability to really get through that armor, he knew he wouldn't really get many wounds back. It's also why he didn't try to charge the Minotaurs that were near the Beast Herd.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

His Lord on Dragon equipped with the Armor of Protection (Heavy armor, 5+ Ward) and the Blade of Sea Gold (No Saves) charged a unit of 2 Minotaurs and a Doombull (Damage attrition is a bitch), and he was equipped with the Axes of Khorgor (+1 A, reroll misses to hit), Heavy Armor, and Crown of Horns (5+ Ward, reroll break check). He issued a challenge which my Doombull couldn't avoid. How would you think that played out? If you said 1 wound on the Doombull, you'd be right. It took 2 turns for the Lord AND DRAGON to take down that Doombull. By every IHM (see above) I shouldn't have lasted the FIRST round.

Again this is another sign that the game was over at list building. That Lord, Dragon or no, is going bounce off of anything T5 or higher. The Blade of Sea Gold doesn't mean spit if he can't wound anything. That guy was dead the second he declared the charge. Let's think about this S4 elf to T5 Doombull = dead elf. I don't know why you think the bull would only last a round, the stats are against the elf and just a bad move on that player. Ridden monsters seem really cool on paper but they are usually not worth their points and were hardly ever seen in competitive play. Even if playing casually I wouldn't take one unless it was 3K or more, especially in 6th or 7th ed. 8th helped them with the stomp but in 6th they are just a big target. It's like having a big sign on your character that says "please shoot me with a cannonball." Again you have to keep the Magic 5 in mind. A ridden monster has no ranks and no standard, so that means you need to cause 5 wounds to tie most units and 6 to beat them. When you have character with 4 attacks and a monster with 4-6 there isn't a lot of room for error. In 6th & 7th a ridden monster is really only good for picking on small units, hitting low toughness troops in the flank, and hunting war machines, otherwise leave them at home.

Dragon Riders have their uses, even in battles that small. Terror Bombs are also a viable tactic. My point with the viability of the charge is that between the Lord AND the Dragon's attacks, more damage should have gone on the Doombull. Even if the Prince wasn't sweeping that guy in one round by himself. the Dragon was wounding hard enough that there should have been a better showing.

BOTH of those were posted to illustrate how random changes the dynamic, but at this point we're so far off what kicked my responses off that it's damn near pointless.




BACK to my point: Given the choice between the 2 Dwarf books, the first one is much more in line with the feeling of the 6th Edition rule set and works better with the other army books. It's almost an exact parallel to the 2 Chaos codices for 3rd Ed. 40K, and I know EXACTLY which one of those I'd stick with as well.

 Just Tony wrote:

Personally I ran my Dwarfs with walls of HW/S Warriors, so I don't find it an issue. I don't know how this person runs his, but regardless immunity to Panic isn't a wash, and shouldn't be handwaived away because you see a mathematically superior build. Someone somewhere will run that many Longbeards off that list, and some army somewhere that depends on what disruption it can get from Panic will be denied that. Or, since we're throwing the T4 card so readily, take an Empire army with lots of Handguns. They will wound Dwarfs much easier than units with Bows, and will evoke Panic checks more often. It doesn't matter how LITTLE it affects the game, it's the precedent set, and the books immediately after this show I'm right.

Just because someone can field a bunch of Longbeards doesn't mean it's a good thing. If I played someone like that I would be like "ok, let's do this", because that person is wasting points that could be better used elsewhere. That is runes and war machines they are not taking, and mediocore troops as opposed to good ones. Hammerers out shine Longbeards, hands down.

Empire Handgunners are no threat to Dwarfs. In 6th and 7th Dwarfs are a castle list, they are not marching across the board. Handgunners will be shooting at long range with horrible BS, hitting on 5 and wounding on 4. That is threat level minimal.

The precedent wasn't set by the Dwarf book, the 6.5 book just put Dwarfs on par with the newer books. The shift occurred with Storm of Chaos which was 2004 and the books there after. Once could even argue that it started with Tomb Kings which was 2003. Dwarfs 6.5 was not until 2005 and compared to the other books that came out that year it is relatively mild.

 Just Tony wrote:

Once again, we get to precedents. When you have one war machine that can suddenly break a game mechanic without really paying for it, you will have books afterwards applying that logic to other books. THEN you look at the books behind it, and see how skewed that is with the rest of the war machines out there. YES, the Warp Cannon has a rule that is fairly eyebrow raising, but in the end the MOST it can wound from your unit is however many ranks you have. Ultimately not game breaking compared to a ballistic machine that can potentially go from 2 hits to 10 hits on a whim. EVEN IF 10 hits doesn't seem that game breaking compared to the potential output of a Hellbaster, for instance, the Hellblaster would be flat out broken if it had inbuilt rerolls. The inability to see that is baffling.

There is no precedent set by the Organ Gun. How is a reroll to go from 2-10 broken, when the Hellblaster can get 20 and misfire and still hit The Warp Lightning cannon can also hit multiple units, so it is much more potent than you think, and let us not forget Ratling guns. Tomb Kings can fire their stone throwers multiple times a turn and that book came out before Dwarfs 6.5. A single reroll that could be just as bad or a dud is not broken or game changing, you are singling out one war machine just because you don't like it and not actually comparing it to the rest of the game.

The Organ Gun is not the equivelant of a built in Engineer. The Master Engineer couldn't do anything for an Organ Gun other than be an extra crew in either book.

 Just Tony wrote:

So what would those Runic weapons and armor be, hmmm? Certainly not magic, even though expressly stated as such. Dwarven magic is Runic magic, pure and simple. Casting Runes on the Anvil is no different than casting from a Wizard, it just requires a separate model from the character. Tell you what, you find me ANY war machine that fires buffs in the Shooting Phase and I'll recant my position.

Rune magic isn't cast, it's forged. As for War Machines that give buffs in the shooting phase, have you seen a SCREAMING BELL in action That is very similar to the Anvil, but more powerful, and goes off in the shooting phase. The Skaven book came out in 2002, three years before Dwarfs 6.5. If you are going to throw out Dwarfs 6.5 you may as well take Skaven back to Ravening Hordes. The Caldron of Blood also hands out buffs all the time, not even just the shooting phase, and you are not calling it broken. As for the Anvil, it only has 3 Runes, 1 is for leadership which is not all that good since Dwarfs already have good leadership, there is the movement rune which you would have to build the whole army around since Dwarfs have such terrible movement. That just leaves the Shooting attack, which is only potent on Ancient Power and with a regular Rune Smith is to attempt. So it is not as bad as the internet would have people believe.

 Just Tony wrote:

Look up my posting history on Warseer before I got banned. SEVERAL threads over there involving the whole "5 man cav on the charge beats everything, that's why all you ever saw was 1" shuffles and MSU" sort of hyperbole. I don't subscribe to that, and posted the math that supported that a 5 man cav unit would be SO behind the 8 ball that it was folly to think it would work. Me posting my point about this from the battle is more about what COULD happen with random dice battles than what projected output people think MAY happen.

Here I agree with you, I never understood the whole MSU 5 man cav thing either. There was a lot of talk about it back in the day, but I only ever saw it at one tournament and that guy got trashed, he went 1-2. The only game he won was due to the scenario, as you had to get as many units as possible off the opponents table edge. Otherwise he was destroyed. 5 man cave units get shot up easy, and can't break ranked infantry of T4 models.

 Just Tony wrote:

His Lord on Dragon equipped with the Armor of Protection (Heavy armor, 5+ Ward) and the Blade of Sea Gold (No Saves) charged a unit of 2 Minotaurs and a Doombull (Damage attrition is a bitch), and he was equipped with the Axes of Khorgor (+1 A, reroll misses to hit), Heavy Armor, and Crown of Horns (5+ Ward, reroll break check). He issued a challenge which my Doombull couldn't avoid. How would you think that played out? If you said 1 wound on the Doombull, you'd be right. It took 2 turns for the Lord AND DRAGON to take down that Doombull. By every IHM (see above) I shouldn't have lasted the FIRST round.

 Just Tony wrote:

Dragon Riders have their uses, even in battles that small. Terror Bombs are also a viable tactic. My point with the viability of the charge is that between the Lord AND the Dragon's attacks, more damage should have gone on the Doombull. Even if the Prince wasn't sweeping that guy in one round by himself. the Dragon was wounding hard enough that there should have been a better showing.

I agree ridden monsters have a place, but as I said before they're better suited for flanking lightly armoured units, hunting small units and war machines. Against a Doombull that still isn't a good match for the Elf. The Lord needs 5s to hit and has no rerolls, the Dragon only wounds on 3 and has 5 attacks. There is little likelihood that he will hit & wound with everything in one round and assume that you fail all saves. That is a 2-3 round fight and in that time the Doombull should be pummeling the lord to death.

 Just Tony wrote:

BACK to my point: Given the choice between the 2 Dwarf books, the first one is much more in line with the feeling of the 6th Edition rule set and works better with the other army books.

This is a misconception that people on the internet keep going because that had a bad experience against a certain list. Dwarfs 6.0 is no more in line with the 6th rulebook than 6.5. Dwarfs 6 is comparable to 6th for Empire, Orcs, Dark Elves, and High Elves, it was just a bulkier version of Ravening Hordes. However it is lacking when compared to the later 6th ed books, such as Chaos, Skaven, Lizards, Tomb Kings, Ogres and Wood Elves. That was the reason for the update to begin with, the design team saw a problem and addressed it. If your group is allowing all the 6th armies to be played then forcing the Dwarf player to the 6.0 book is a deliberate handicapping for no good reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 brr-icy wrote:
which we've house ruled 6th's anvil into 6.5, so that's a non issue)

I would be against this idea, I say go one way or the other. The 6.5 book is more than half the 6th ed books. The 6.0 book is only on par with Empire, Orcs, Dark Elves, and High Elves. But do what makes your group happy.

Thanks guys. I'm actually getting aloot of good info here. Even about high elves which i just bought a 3500 point army of. Although i enjoy a good ridden monster, and we play above 3k every game.

We'll let him try the 6.5 anvil, but he doesn't really play dwarfs very dwarf-like, likes to charge a unit or two across the table and maroon them, usually a very high points cost one too lol. I'm sure he'll learn how to play them eventually.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 brr-icy wrote:
which we've house ruled 6th's anvil into 6.5, so that's a non issue)

I would be against this idea, I say go one way or the other. The 6.5 book is more than half the 6th ed books. The 6.0 book is only on par with Empire, Orcs, Dark Elves, and High Elves. But do what makes your group happy.

Where would you put the 7th edition Empire book, I think it is about as powerful as the 6th ed Bretonnian book.

I much prefer the army list of the 7th ed book, but the 6th ed Empire book is much nicer to read.

 StygianBeach wrote:

Where would you put the 7th edition Empire book, I think it is about as powerful as the 6th ed Bretonnian book.

I much prefer the army list of the 7th ed book, but the 6th ed Empire book is much nicer to read.

I would be inclined to say if you are allowing the later 6th books then go with Empire 7th as it has more things in it. IIRC the Warrior Priests are better and State Troops are cheaper. Certainly the Steam Tank in the 7th ed book is easier to use than the one from the 6th ed Chronicles Book. However I remember that Flagellants were better in 6th. In the end it comes down to what your group is ok with. I could certainly see how purists would be against it, but part of the fun of a dead game is you can fix what you don't like. As above if the group is ok with the 6.0 anvil in the 6.5 list more power to them

It is, but at the same time the whole point of curating a more "custom" version of the game is to achieve whatever objective you set out for, and if that's "avoid the gakshow of the 7th army book power curve"(as it often is for WHFB revivalists) you have to be careful what you use.

Right now I'm settling in for two versions; 6th core book with Ravening Hordes to play with people who like a tighter experience, and 7th core book with 6th army books & Chronicles content for folk who share my own leaning towards flavour/narrative gaming. In the latter case, I'll be sticking with the Chronicles lists for Brets and WElfs and the 6th Dwarf book. It's just less hassle(and leads to less "well if they can use 7th stuff why can't I?" arguments), though if someone comes up with really well written house rules for stuff from later editions that are designed to fit with the comparatively fairly flat power curve of the 6th books, that's worth considering(I seem to recall a fan made mini-supplement floating about that does that for a lot of the later Skaven stuff).

Actually, my opinion of the Brets is that you take the Warhammer Annual list and slap the AB rules for the Lance formation it. THAT is about what I'd want in a Bretonnia book.

 Just Tony wrote:
Actually, my opinion of the Brets is that you take the Warhammer Annual list and slap the AB rules for the Lance formation it. THAT is about what I'd want in a Bretonnia book.

I always liked the Wood Elves list from the Annual over the 7th ed rulebook.

Dude, you need to sit down for this, okay?




We agree on that point.

 Just Tony wrote:

We agree on that point.

The Annual list felt like an actual army with diverse troop types and the Acorn of Ages is the coolest magic item ever

The 7th ed book was just "let's see how may ways we can make skirmishers and oh here are some Darth Maul spear guys"

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

 StygianBeach wrote:

Where would you put the 7th edition Empire book, I think it is about as powerful as the 6th ed Bretonnian book.

I much prefer the army list of the 7th ed book, but the 6th ed Empire book is much nicer to read.

I would be inclined to say if you are allowing the later 6th books then go with Empire 7th as it has more things in it. IIRC the Warrior Priests are better and State Troops are cheaper. Certainly the Steam Tank in the 7th ed book is easier to use than the one from the 6th ed Chronicles Book. However I remember that Flagellants were better in 6th. In the end it comes down to what your group is ok with. I could certainly see how purists would be against it, but part of the fun of a dead game is you can fix what you don't like. As above if the group is ok with the 6.0 anvil in the 6.5 list more power to them

Missed this one. Just because things got made better or cheaper (and in some cases BOTH) does not mean it's balanced compared to everything else. That sort of crank up is what led to the 7th Ed. cheese books from High Elves on.

 Just Tony wrote:


Missed this one. Just because things got made better or cheaper (and in some cases BOTH) does not mean it's balanced compared to everything else. That sort of crank up is what led to the 7th Ed. cheese books from High Elves on.

The High Elf book looks nasty on paper, but the universal Always Strikes First rue only became truly nasty in 8th edition when it allowed re-rolls.

I remember being outraged at the time when I read the new rules(back in 2007?), but after playing against them I realised that the 6th ed Wood Elf book was (still) more powerful.

That being said, I do not think dropping the 7th ed book straight into 6th would work (unlike the 7th ed Empire book). I do think that the 7th ed High Elf book did do a better job with the points costs than the 6th ed book, but 8th gave High Elves the best universal special rule 'Martial Prowess' allowing High Elves to fight in narrower formations.

So, what I would love to see for 6th ed High Elves is the 6th Ed Army Roster with 7th ed points cost and Martial Prowess universal special rule.

I cannot imagine that would be overpowered against 6th edition Bretonians, Lizardmen, Skaven or Wood Elves?

 Just Tony wrote:
Basically having an Engineer special rule inbuilt with no cost added is damn near the exact definition of overpowered. Did any other war machines have similar rules? Nope? Overpowered.

That assumes it was balanced before. It it was weaker than it should be it could just as well be essential fix.

Oh and things have unique stuff on them all the time. Just because others don't have identical rule doesn't mean it's overpowered. Or are detachments of empire uber broken? Pretty sure no other army or unit has that...Bretonnia and their lance? Is high elf dragon armour overpowered because other armours don't have same rule?

Take ANY race and make their spells immune to dispel. Can you even PRICE that in points? No, you can't. I'd have been better if the Anvil had bound spells that could be recast with an attempt at a miscast for subsequent casting. THAT would have been better than how they handled it. It doesn't matter whether one character is better at the Anvil spells than the other, it's a design precedent that's completely out of whack with the rest of the edition.

Can you dispel cannon ball? Mortar shell? Chaos knight charge? Anvil was just another shooting attack.

When they were dispellable did somebody actually ever get off? One anvil wasn't generating enough cast spells to actually overload opponents magic defences. That's hardly balanced.

StygianBeach wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:


Missed this one. Just because things got made better or cheaper (and in some cases BOTH) does not mean it's balanced compared to everything else. That sort of crank up is what led to the 7th Ed. cheese books from High Elves on.

The High Elf book looks nasty on paper, but the universal Always Strikes First rue only became truly nasty in 8th edition when it allowed re-rolls.

I remember being outraged at the time when I read the new rules(back in 2007?), but after playing against them I realised that the 6th ed Wood Elf book was (still) more powerful.

That being said, I do not think dropping the 7th ed book straight into 6th would work (unlike the 7th ed Empire book). I do think that the 7th ed High Elf book did do a better job with the points costs than the 6th ed book, but 8th gave High Elves the best universal special rule 'Martial Prowess' allowing High Elves to fight in narrower formations.

So, what I would love to see for 6th ed High Elves is the 6th Ed Army Roster with 7th ed points cost and Martial Prowess universal special rule.

I cannot imagine that would be overpowered against 6th edition Bretonians, Lizardmen, Skaven or Wood Elves?

It set a precedent and led directly to the Dark Elves book, which I think I can safely say NOBODY thought was balanced. THAT led to the VC and Daemons books where the authors saw the two Elven books and said "Hold my beer..." It isn't always about how bad the thing is that starts the arms race, but where that start ends us.

tneva82 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Basically having an Engineer special rule inbuilt with no cost added is damn near the exact definition of overpowered. Did any other war machines have similar rules? Nope? Overpowered.

That assumes it was balanced before. It it was weaker than it should be it could just as well be essential fix.

"I don't like it" or "I want it better" does NOT equal imbalanced. Just because you don't think something performs well enough doesn't mean it has to be thrown a drastic improvement, Do you remember the Chaos 3.5 Codex? Prime example.

tneva82 wrote:Oh and things have unique stuff on them all the time. Just because others don't have identical rule doesn't mean it's overpowered. Or are detachments of empire uber broken? Pretty sure no other army or unit has that...

Detachments are SEVERELY broken. Not ONLY do no other armies have anything REMOTELY comparable to that rule, they don't pay any POINTS for it. Can you tell me how much you'd pay to be able to guarantee a flank charge? Or better yet, how much would you pay for High Elves to have the ability for an Archer unit to Stand and Shoot at a unit that's charging the unit of Spearmen next to it? How can anyone even DEFEND the detachment rules?

tneva82 wrote:Bretonnia and their lance?

The Lance formation has its negatives as well as its perks.

tneva82 wrote:Is high elf dragon armour overpowered because other armours don't have same rule?

No, because they pay points for the rule. It isn't that hard, dude.

tneva82 wrote:

Take ANY race and make their spells immune to dispel. Can you even PRICE that in points? No, you can't. I'd have been better if the Anvil had bound spells that could be recast with an attempt at a miscast for subsequent casting. THAT would have been better than how they handled it. It doesn't matter whether one character is better at the Anvil spells than the other, it's a design precedent that's completely out of whack with the rest of the edition.

Can you dispel cannon ball? Mortar shell? Chaos knight charge? Anvil was just another shooting attack.

When they were dispellable did somebody actually ever get off? One anvil wasn't generating enough cast spells to actually overload opponents magic defences. That's hardly balanced.

Obviously there's no winning on either side of this debate anymore. Those of us that accept it as magic will never accept it as a war machine, and the same goes for those on the opposite side of the debate.

You. Will. Not. Change. My. Mind. On. This.



For the record, though, if we're going to start claiming EVERYTHING as equivocal to shooting as far as not being able to be dispelled, then what's the point of separating ANYTHING? Just paint models, line them up on the table, then play a hot game of Yahtzee on the table next to it. What's the point?

 StygianBeach wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:


Missed this one. Just because things got made better or cheaper (and in some cases BOTH) does not mean it's balanced compared to everything else. That sort of crank up is what led to the 7th Ed. cheese books from High Elves on.

The High Elf book looks nasty on paper, but the universal Always Strikes First rue only became truly nasty in 8th edition when it allowed re-rolls

2nd this. My best gaming bud played High Elves almost exclusively in 5-8th they still squished just the same in 7th. The 7th ed book didn't make that much of a difference. Elves were faster than most other armies anyway, so giving them Always Strike First wasn't that big of a deal. Most of the outrage against the 7th Ed books is internet hype.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:

It set a precedent and led directly to the Dark Elves book, which I think I can safely say NOBODY thought was balanced. THAT led to the VC and Daemons books where the authors saw the two Elven books and said "Hold my beer..." It isn't always about how bad the thing is that starts the arms race, but where that start ends us.

This is just a wrong and false assumption. You cannot lay blame on one book. Power creeps were a thing in every edition, that happens as games develop. You are also making assumptions about things that you have no understanding. Just because books were staggered in their release doesn't mean they were developed just to beat the latest book. Friends of mine were involved in play testing with the design team in 6th. Most of the time several books are being work on at one time. I can't say about now days but back then finished books could sit around for close to a year before being released.

 Just Tony wrote:

"I don't like it" or "I want it better" does NOT equal imbalanced. Just because you don't think something performs well enough doesn't mean it has to be thrown a drastic improvement, Do you remember the Chaos 3.5 Codex? Prime example.

The 6.0 organ gun was overpriced compared to other similar weapons, it was imbalanced in the negative and needed to be redone. Just because something is worth it's points doesn't make it broken.

 Just Tony wrote:

tneva82 wrote:Is high elf dragon armour overpowered because other armours don't have same rule?

No, because they pay points for the rule. It isn't that hard, dude.

Ah, dude you paid the points for the organ gun too. The 6.5 organ gun was 140pts and still couldn't pump out as many shots as the Hellblaster or the Skaven Ratling gun

 Just Tony wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Take ANY race and make their spells immune to dispel. Can you even PRICE that in points? No, you can't. I'd have been better if the Anvil had bound spells that could be recast with an attempt at a miscast for subsequent casting. THAT would have been better than how they handled it. It doesn't matter whether one character is better at the Anvil spells than the other, it's a design precedent that's completely out of whack with the rest of the edition.

Can you dispel cannon ball? Mortar shell? Chaos knight charge? Anvil was just another shooting attack.

When they were dispellable did somebody actually ever get off? One anvil wasn't generating enough cast spells to actually overload opponents magic defences. That's hardly balanced.

Obviously there's no winning on either side of this debate anymore. Those of us that accept it as magic will never accept it as a war machine, and the same goes for those on the opposite side of the debate.

You. Will. Not. Change. My. Mind. On. This.

tneva82 makes a valid point. Tony you are complaining just for the sake of it.How is the 6.5 Anvil broken but the Chaos Dwarf Earthshaker from Ravening Hordes isn't It does the same thing except better and cheaper than the anvil, still with about the ability to dispel it. You seem to think that Ravening Hordes and anything that predates Dwarfs 6.5 is soo balanced, the anvil's ability already existed in the game way before the 6.5 book.

 brr-icy wrote:
Thanks guys. I'm actually getting aloot of good info here. Even about high elves which i just bought a 3500 point army of. Although i enjoy a good ridden monster, and we play above 3k every game.

We'll let him try the 6.5 anvil, but he doesn't really play dwarfs very dwarf-like, likes to charge a unit or two across the table and maroon them, usually a very high points cost one too lol. I'm sure he'll learn how to play them eventually.

The only time that my charges worked for me was when I got my whole line together and charging. When they are together Dwarves are a steam roller, when they are separated out in piecemeal, than that is when things go off of the rails.

Back on topic. I played both books and the 6.5 in the 6th when it came out. What I did not like about the 6th book they fixed in the 6.5. What I did not like about the 6.5 book I though was un necessary. I certainly can play both, but I tend to like what I have in the 6th just a little more than the other.

To be honest even though WHFB is a dead system if you are playing stunties in 6th the valid rules are the updated ones.

It was rare at the time for a reissue of an army book in the same game edition, very unusual so the newer rules should hold.

Its not like its yet another splatbooik from the era of the myriad 7th edition Tau codexes to choose from.

 Orlanth wrote:
To be honest even though WHFB is a dead system if you are playing stunties in 6th the valid rules are the updated ones.

It was rare at the time for a reissue of an army book in the same game edition, very unusual so the newer rules should hold.

Its not like its yet another splatbooik from the era of the myriad 7th edition Tau codexes to choose from.

Yet many people play with Ravening Hordes instead of the army books because of the better balance between lists. If a group agrees to a certain thing then that is how they play. Period.

Plus the Dwarf book was released quite shortly before 7th came out, considering the long rule update cycles it is quite sure that it was already made to fit the upcoming new 7th edition rather than for 6th.

If you played 6th "competitive" meaning you squeezed the limits of what was possible, the anvil really wasn't making too much sense for a dwarf player.
But if you played, say, against a balanced army of O&G, with 2 shamans level 2, it was well worth its points over the course of the whole game.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

We agree on that point.

The Annual list felt like an actual army with diverse troop types and the Acorn of Ages is the coolest magic item ever

The 7th ed book was just "let's see how may ways we can make skirmishers and oh here are some Darth Maul spear guys"

It has been a while since I have studied the two, so I am going to reserve judgment on this one. I will say this, I do like what they did with the new plastics that came out, and some of the metals like the Wild Riders and on their own the Eternal Guard. I would rather use WE Glade Guard as Shadow warriors or shades than what is out there in metal, and I like those models in their respective ranges. IMHO though, the old Way Watchers were some of the best sculpts that they ever made, and the rank and file metal were great. I would have liked to see more variety in their range, but I know why they stopped at 12 for each. After that it is kind of hit or miss on both old and new for me.