Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Wouldn't this system work better?

Characters of 9 wounds or less can join units.
Only one Character can join a single unit.
Characters can not take hits in a unit until every model in that unit is removed.
Characters that are part of a unit that is completely destroyed can join another unit within 3" if their unit is completely destroyed (this happens immediately when the unit is destroyed).
If a character is the only visible model in a unit the unit can be selected as a target.
If a unit is completely destroyed due to a leadership check - the character remains and is unaffected - it can still join another unit within 3 inches.


So basically this what is good about 7th edition character rules combined with what is good about 8th. It's hard for me to imagine any intelligent human being coming up with the character rules in 8th. They are so horrendously bad - I just want to quit games sometimes because of how stupid they are. No LOS obviously - that was also a really stupid mechanic. However the rules in 8th for character targeting are even worse.

Obviously we don't want characters to be freely targeted - they would be focused and killed too easily.
but
We obviously don't want situations where you can not shoot anything in a turn when you have multiple visible targets to shoot at.

Any other suggestions to improve upon this set of rules? What do you think? Wouldn't this make a better game?
(Edit:removed 2 unnecessary lines / 1 character per unit max)

Basically, restore Independent Characters to the game?

I wish they would. It'd take 9E to do it right: IC comes back, joins units, and probably most Auras only affect said unit instead of bubbles.

That said, some nitpicks to clean up this idea:
"If a character is the only visible model in a unit it can be selected as a target. "
No need; the unit itself can be targetted even if only one model in the unit is visible. And, as above, wounds must apply to the unit before the character. As such, without this rule, things work.

"If a unit is completely destroyed due to a leadership check - the character remains and is unaffected - it can still join another unit within 3 inches. "
If the character was in a unit that ran, at best give it a seperate Ld check with the same modifier, don't assume it passed it. A Warlock shouldn't auto-survive a failed Ld.

"A players own models can not be used in such a way as to obstruct other visible models in a characters unit so it can be selected as a target (terrain features however - CAN) "
As above, unnecessary. The defending player can (and must) allocate wounds to the unit before the character anyways. So you can't snipe the Character, even if it's the only model in the unit visible.

I like the general gist. I think what they tried to do in 8th worked exactly backwards: they wanted to stop Deathstars, the "one big unit". Now, instead of "one big unit" we have "one big mass of units" - where the deathstars are even bigger, and entire armies must castle to be effective. Auras are bigger incentives for deathstars than ICs ever were.

Bharring wrote:
Basically, restore Independent Characters to the game?

I wish they would. It'd take 9E to do it right: IC comes back, joins units, and probably most Auras only affect said unit instead of bubbles.

That said, some nitpicks to clean up this idea:
"If a character is the only visible model in a unit it can be selected as a target. "
No need; the unit itself can be targetted even if only one model in the unit is visible. And, as above, wounds must apply to the unit before the character. As such, without this rule, things work.

"If a unit is completely destroyed due to a leadership check - the character remains and is unaffected - it can still join another unit within 3 inches. "
If the character was in a unit that ran, at best give it a seperate Ld check with the same modifier, don't assume it passed it. A Warlock shouldn't auto-survive a failed Ld.

"A players own models can not be used in such a way as to obstruct other visible models in a characters unit so it can be selected as a target (terrain features however - CAN) "
As above, unnecessary. The defending player can (and must) allocate wounds to the unit before the character anyways. So you can't snipe the Character, even if it's the only model in the unit visible.

I like the general gist. I think what they tried to do in 8th worked exactly backwards: they wanted to stop Deathstars, the "one big unit". Now, instead of "one big unit" we have "one big mass of units" - where the deathstars are even bigger, and entire armies must castle to be effective. Auras are bigger incentives for deathstars than ICs ever were.

Good points. I will remove those lines as they are unnecessary it seems. I guess I wasn't thinking that he is still part of the unit. I was thinking that auras could remain but I agree those are problematic.

The Independent Character rule is what led to silly things like 60+ Wolves and a bunch of characters in what was basically a slingshot.

It's better that the rule is just gone.

Why not fix the rule? Isn't maybe one deathstar better than most armies devolving into one deathbubble?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Independent Character rule is what led to silly things like 60+ Wolves and a bunch of characters in what was basically a slingshot.

It's better that the rule is just gone.

I'm not suggesting characters make units fearless. Also thanks for reminding me - 1x character per unit only.

Plus - on the topic of orders - should just work like AM orders - with 1-3 units affected by the buff based on what character it is.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Independent Character rule is what led to silly things like 60+ Wolves and a bunch of characters in what was basically a slingshot.

It's better that the rule is just gone.

I'm not suggesting characters make units fearless. Also thanks for reminding me - 1x character per unit only.

Plus - on the topic of orders - should just work like AM orders - with 1-3 units affected by the buff based on what character it is.

That leads to inconsistency though. Suppose you decided Azareal was attached to a Conscript squad for whatever reason. Assuming no morale shenanigans, Azrael, even though he's Deathwing, would run away.

Ic is way to complicated and causes way too many oddities.

Kiss. Keep it simple stupid.

1) a unit cannot target a chatacter if all of the bellow are true.
A) it has less then 10 wounds characteristic
B) is not the closest unit
C) is within 3 inches of a friendly unit.

If you have a character standing on its own 8 inches from friendly units then you can just shoot it. No matter how many units are between you and it.

If the characater is up front it can be shot.

If it has more then 10 wounds no amount of positioning can save you.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Independent Character rule is what led to silly things like 60+ Wolves and a bunch of characters in what was basically a slingshot.

It's better that the rule is just gone.

I'm not suggesting characters make units fearless. Also thanks for reminding me - 1x character per unit only.

Plus - on the topic of orders - should just work like AM orders - with 1-3 units affected by the buff based on what character it is.

That leads to inconsistency though. Suppose you decided Azareal was attached to a Conscript squad for whatever reason. Assuming no morale shenanigans, Azrael, even though he's Deathwing, would run away.

No - I specifically wrote a line to say characters are immune to the leadership of their unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
Ic is way to complicated and causes way too many oddities.

Kiss. Keep it simple stupid.

1) a unit cannot target a chatacter if all of the bellow are true.
A) it has less then 10 wounds characteristic
B) is not the closest unit
C) is within 3 inches of a friendly unit.

If you have a character standing on its own 8 inches from friendly units then you can just shoot it. No matter how many units are between you and it.

If the characater is up front it can be shot.

If it has more then 10 wounds no amount of positioning can save you.

This could work to. Though it requires some rules that talk about units being closer and out of LOS ect.

Yeah, I think just adding the "must also be within 3" of a friendly unit" to the existing Character rules is fine.
As stated, allowing them to be part of units creates weird situations. Just keep them units on their own with the existing rules plus some tweaks

-

No you do not need to add anything about los. Shooting rules already require los. Character rules are in addition to shooting rules not an overwrite to them.

 Galef wrote:
Yeah, I think just adding the "must also be within 3" of a friendly unit" to the existing Character rules is fine.
As stated, allowing them to be part of units creates weird situations. Just keep them units on their own with the existing rules plus some tweaks

-

The 3 inch requirement would help. BUT. There will still be weird cases where armies lose their whole shooting phase but can see a bunch of characters (because a non character unit is in CC or out of LOS but the closest target) if this every happens to you - trust me - you will be very frustrated.

What specific weird interactions are you speaking of? I tried to detail them in the OP and make ruling on them. The way I see it - you tie the characters shooting immunity to a unit and treat him as part of the unit - there will never be a sitatuion in which the "screening" unit is untargetable because it's Out of LOS but the character is untargetable because it is not the closest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
No you do not need to add anything about los. Shooting rules already require los. Character rules are in addition to shooting rules not an overwrite to them.

I don't think you understand my gripe with the current rules. Let me just illustrate them as obviously as possible.

It is currently possible for 20 characters to be the only visible targets on the battle field to an entire other armies guns. There are a few small hidden non character units that are closer than EVERY character. The entire other army can't shoot anything. Even though it can draw LOS to 20 targets. Any rule that supports this situation is a pile of dung and needs to be addressed.

They literally fixed that because of the Culexus situations that happened.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They literally fixed that because of the Culexus situations that happened.

All they really did was make characters not able to screen for characters.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They literally fixed that because of the Culexus situations that happened.

All they really did was make characters not able to screen for characters.

Which was all that was necessary. Having Troops be sacrificial to protect everyone else fits the setting fine.

 Lance845 wrote:
No you do not need to add anything about los. Shooting rules already require los. Character rules are in addition to shooting rules not an overwrite to them.

It does need to have something in there about LOS.

 Lance845 wrote:

1) a unit cannot target a chatacter if all of the bellow are true.
A) it has less then 10 wounds characteristic
B) is not the closest unit
C) is within 3 inches of a friendly unit.

If you have a character standing on its own 8 inches from friendly units then you can just shoot it. No matter how many units are between you and it.

X <--- IC with less than 10 wounds within three inches of friendly unit.

xxxxxx <--- enemy unit hidden behind cover such that no models are visible, within 3 inches of friendly IC.
______________

OOO <---- Your unit.

You are prevented from shooting that enemy IC despite the fact that it is the only target you can see.

 Lance845 wrote:
Ic is way to complicated and causes way too many oddities.

Kiss. Keep it simple stupid.

1) a unit cannot target a chatacter if all of the bellow are true.
A) it has less then 10 wounds characteristic
B) is not the closest unit
C) is within 3 inches of a friendly unit.

If you have a character standing on its own 8 inches from friendly units then you can just shoot it. No matter how many units are between you and it.

If the characater is up front it can be shot.

If it has more then 10 wounds no amount of positioning can save you.

The only issue with this is the beta rule that prevents targeting characters if a non-visible non-character unit is closer. I think if we just delete that part and replace it with the 3" requirement it we should be good.
When you think about it, requiring characters to be near other models would make "rhino sniping" extremely difficult anyway.

Unless, of course, that was your intent and I just missed it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They literally fixed that because of the Culexus situations that happened.

All they really did was make characters not able to screen for characters.

Which was all that was necessary. Having Troops be sacrificial to protect everyone else fits the setting fine.

Totally fine if you can shoot the unit that is screening. Not fine if you can't - like if it's out of LOS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Ic is way to complicated and causes way too many oddities.

Kiss. Keep it simple stupid.

1) a unit cannot target a chatacter if all of the bellow are true.
A) it has less then 10 wounds characteristic
B) is not the closest unit
C) is within 3 inches of a friendly unit.

If you have a character standing on its own 8 inches from friendly units then you can just shoot it. No matter how many units are between you and it.

If the characater is up front it can be shot.

If it has more then 10 wounds no amount of positioning can save you.

The only issue with this is the beta rule that prevents targeting characters if a non-visible non-character unit is closer. I think if we just delete that part and replace it with the 3" requirement it we should be good.
When you think about it, requiring characters to be near other models would make "rhino sniping" extremely difficult anyway.

Unless, of course, that was your intent and I just missed it.

3" rule and only targets you are eligible to shoot can screen. I perfer my suggestion though because it will reduce the number of heros a unit can screen.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They literally fixed that because of the Culexus situations that happened.

All they really did was make characters not able to screen for characters.

Which was all that was necessary. Having Troops be sacrificial to protect everyone else fits the setting fine.

Totally fine if you can shoot the unit that is screening. Not fine if you can't - like if it's out of LOS.

So that's an issue with LOS then.

So make it that they don't count as the closest unit regarding characters. Why not just fix that?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They literally fixed that because of the Culexus situations that happened.

All they really did was make characters not able to screen for characters.

Which was all that was necessary. Having Troops be sacrificial to protect everyone else fits the setting fine.

Totally fine if you can shoot the unit that is screening. Not fine if you can't - like if it's out of LOS.

So that's an issue with LOS then.

So make it that they don't count as the closest unit regarding characters. Why not just fix that?

Starting to think that the suggested 3" rule and a rule that ineligible targets can't screen for characters. That would work great.

Just do the ineligible targets clause and honestly that would fix everything. Anything more would punish armies with already expensive HQ units as is.

What about 'When targetting a character, the owning player may choose to replace the target with a friendly non-character unit within 3" of the original target. Range and Line of Sight are calculated based on the original target'?

Haven't refined the idea, just wanted to throw it out there - basically a super-LookOutSir protection, granting the protection GW intended, without wonking about with out-of-LOS shenanigans so much.

Bharring wrote:
What about 'When targetting a character, the owning player may choose to replace the target with a friendly non-character unit within 3" of the original target. Range and Line of Sight are calculated based on the original target'?

Haven't refined the idea, just wanted to throw it out there - basically a super-LookOutSir protection, granting the protection GW intended, without wonking about with out-of-LOS shenanigans so much.

That gets to crazy when you get in close though and you are passing off wounds on Gman to intercessors behind him. Not just that - he can eat the bolters with his 2+ and pass the melta off to intercessors. It's not a bad idea at first glance but when I think about it it just gets worse in my head.

Kinda like the old LoS.

It'd need some rule to make it all-or-nothing. Then it becomes complex, just like all or nothing. It would also benefit from only passing wounds to *closer* models.

I LOATHE the 8th ed character rules. It leads to things like warbossess being delegated to little more than cheerleading duty because they get instagibbed by anything even remotely dangerous in CC.

I'd also prefer it if what are now character auras go back to affecting the unit they're joined to.

And yes, there was some deathstar silliness, but limiting the amount of characters who could join a unit would help.

So I'd be 100% on board with the OP's suggestion. But what will probably happen instead is they just remove character protection entirely like in AoS.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I LOATHE the 8th ed character rules. It leads to things like warbossess being delegated to little more than cheerleading duty because they get instagibbed by anything even remotely dangerous in CC.

I'd also prefer it if what are now character auras go back to affecting the unit they're joined to.

And yes, there was some deathstar silliness, but limiting the amount of characters who could join a unit would help.

So I'd be 100% on board with the OP's suggestion. But what will probably happen instead is they just remove character protection entirely like in AoS.

I get the cheerleader part, but Warbosses don't fall over and die to a stiff breeze for their price.

I do wish limited IC rules were reinstated. Close-range support characters like chaplains have a very difficult job because the rules are not friendly to them. They get outpaced and left behind by squads they’re supposed to be leading, they’re incredibly easy to assassinate in combat, (assuming they make it there,) they’re very easy to assassinate if they didn’t make it to the combat by simply moving over or around the squad that charged ahead, they need a dude from the squad to stay back from the combat so that he can be told to tell the rest of his unit to fight better, and that’s assuming their aura is “unit in range” rather than “models in range,”...their problems are abundant.

What I would like to see is:
-character can’t be targeted when a friendly unit is right next to him, closest model be damned. (Perhaps this can be limited to units that match unit type keywords.)

-ONE character (per unit) can combine his charge attempt with a nearby friendly unit and move along with them.

-characters get some form of targeting protection in melee. Perhaps enemy models may only attack the character if they have no other targets to swing at.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:



I get the cheerleader part, but Warbosses don't fall over and die to a stiff breeze for their price.

They kind of do. They're pretty cheap, I'll warrant, but if it's dangerous, and the warboss doesn't one-shot it, it'll interrupt and squish him. Dreads, Anything with thunderhammer+storm shield, patriarchs - anything that's even remotely threatening in CC with even a decent invlun will just wreck a warboss. And hell, pre-codex, warbossi did laughably bad amounts of damage. I once had one in CC with a leman russ for like 5 rounds of combat and didn't kill it. It's embarrassing.

Post-codex, mainly thanks to the killa klaw, warbossi can actually pack a punch. But they CANNOT take one.

Why not just make the character rule make characters unable to be shot if they are within 2" of another friendly non-character unit, unless they are the closest unit. You know, like how it was before.

Because the closer unit can potentially hide outside Los.

It's about how to balance the defenders Los shenanigans (no legal target despite characters in the open) and the attacker's Los shenanigans (rhino sniping).