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Firstly, chaos marines are attackers. I see this mistake by players constantly when playing CSM's, they try to sit back and be safe when they should be pushing instead. Secondly, no concentration of power, every unit in my army is under 200 points so there is nothing vitally important that can be shut down, there's always a complex choice for the opponent to prioritize. Thirdly, many HQ's, this is an alpha legion specialty, strong abilities coming from cheap models. I wouldn't say CSM's are generally very strong but with the right plan I've been successful against Guilliman lists, tyranids, genestealer cult all of which were well built synergistic lists. This was made to help chaos players not play like junk, I see battle reports all the time where I feel like the chaos player has a fine list but isn't applying a good strategy, basically they are applying a conservative approach mimicking regular space marine play which makes their units subpar space marines.

Would you have a sample list?

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [28 PL, 7CP, 418pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Gifts of Chaos (1 Relic) [-1CP]

Legion: Alpha Legion

Use Beta Rules

+ HQ +

Lord Arkos [7 PL, 120pts]: Combi-melta, I am Alpharius, Warlord

Sorcerer [6 PL, 100pts]: Combi-bolter, Force stave, Mark of Tzeentch

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 56pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 8x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon
. Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Flamer
. Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 52pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. 8x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Heavy stubber
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Space Marines [9 PL, 90pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Combi-bolter
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [48 PL, 1CP, 815pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Legion: Alpha Legion

+ HQ +

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 84pts]: Combi-flamer, Mark of Tzeentch, Power maul

Exalted Champion [5 PL, 70pts]: Blade of the Hydra, Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Mark of Khorne

+ Elites +

Chosen [11 PL, 184pts]: Icon of Despair, Mark of Nurgle
. Chosen: Power axe
. Chosen: Power axe
. Chosen: Power fist
. Chosen: Power fist
. Chosen Champion: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Chosen w/ Combi or Special weapon: Plasma gun
. Chosen w/ Combi or Special weapon: Flamer
. Chosen w/ Lightning Claw: Lightning Claw

Helbrute [7 PL, 120pts]: Helbrute plasma cannon, Mark of Tzeentch
. Helbrute fist: Heavy flamer

Possessed [6 PL, 110pts]: Icon of Wrath, Mark of Khorne, 5x Possessed

+ Flyer +

Heldrake [10 PL, 167pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, Mark of Tzeentch

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]: Combi-bolter, Combi-bolter, Havoc launcher, Mark of Tzeentch

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [41 PL, 1CP, 767pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Legion: Alpha Legion

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord [5 PL, 94pts]: Combi-plasma, Mark of Nurgle, Power fist

Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 180pts]: Intoxicating Elixir, Malefic talon, Slaanesh

+ Heavy Support +

Chaos Predator [9 PL, 186pts]: Havoc launcher, Mark of Tzeentch, Predator autocannon
. Two lascannons: 2x Lascannon

Defiler [11 PL, 142pts]: Defiler scourge, Mark of Tzeentch, Reaper autocannon

Havocs [7 PL, 165pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon

++ Total: [117 PL, 9CP, 2000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have a variation without lascannons and I add 3-4 spawn to make up points

I'm not sure how competitive you're talking about, because it seems very weak. For example, if you go to a grand tournament with that. You're just going to get smashed to pieces.

You will not beat a riptide and firewarrior spam list with that list.

Plenty of small expensive fraqile units...Nyam nyam.

My Tau would eat that for breakfast. And good luck getting CSM into combat with me.

A heldrake? MSU Cultists? Basic Chaos Marines? CC focus? No ranged anti Horde weapons? In what meta ist that even remotely competitive?

That list looks all kinds of terrible. How do you win with it? What tournaments have you taken it to and what sort of armies has it gone up against? You don't see CSM armies like this doing well at any big tournaments so either you've stumbled upon some secretly brilliant army nobody else has figured out yet or you've not played against strong armies played by strong players.

It could be a meta dependant list. If BrazenJaw’s meta is based on people being able to kill Knights, for example, then MSU may work by target saturation.

A concept doesn’t need to win tournaments to be successful at a local level. I’m a garage hammer guy myself. My friends like to emulate tournament lists, and I evolve to deal with it in my local meta. I doubt I’d win tournaments, but I can win against tournament lists piloted by clever opponents.

 greatbigtree wrote:
It could be a meta dependant list. If BrazenJaw’s meta is based on people being able to kill Knights, for example, then MSU may work by target saturation.

A concept doesn’t need to win tournaments to be successful at a local level. I’m a garage hammer guy myself. My friends like to emulate tournament lists, and I evolve to deal with it in my local meta. I doubt I’d win tournaments, but I can win against tournament lists piloted by clever opponents.

However winning some garage games and then claiming other chaos marine players are playing like junk is bit rich. If you come claiming others are playing like junk and that you have found the key for playing marines then you need to do that with evidence that's better than garage games.

If you play in perfect meta for it even stompa is good. However before coming and claiming "you guys are playing stompa wrong!" it would only reasonable for me to show it in practice in actual enviroment and not one that's not what people generally play.

Anything can be made to seem good. That doesn't make it good though. So if you are saying others are playing it wrong have proof in ready ;-)

I feel like this thread belongs in 40K Tactics, not Tournament Discussions.

 brazenjaw wrote:
Firstly, chaos marines are attackers. I see this mistake by players constantly when playing CSM's, they try to sit back and be safe when they should be pushing instead. Secondly, no concentration of power, every unit in my army is under 200 points so there is nothing vitally important that can be shut down, there's always a complex choice for the opponent to prioritize. Thirdly, many HQ's, this is an alpha legion specialty, strong abilities coming from cheap models. I wouldn't say CSM's are generally very strong but with the right plan I've been successful against Guilliman lists, tyranids, genestealer cult all of which were well built synergistic lists. This was made to help chaos players not play like junk, I see battle reports all the time where I feel like the chaos player has a fine list but isn't applying a good strategy, basically they are applying a conservative approach mimicking regular space marine play which makes their units subpar space marines.

Why don't you bring it to a tournament, place top three or something in it. Then you will be able to prove that your list works really well. I am not saying its bad. You can play possibly to objectives and win. Its just that it doesn't look like it will have an easy time fighting some of the meaner lists in the competitive scene right now.

Example: The castellan with full IG imperium soup list. Your heavy support will be dead by turn two or three. (There is no way you will kill of a 3++ Castellan on your turn of shooting regardless if you went first or not). Then you have to play the objective game with the rest of the 1400 points of IG. So, we are talking about heavy mortar teams which will kill your 10 man cultists by turn 2. Basilisks and mortar all hidden out of line of sight raining shells on you. We are also talking about how you then need to fend off 6 to 8 squads of infantry grabbing objectives and providing screening as well. etc, etc.

He's got 3 units of troops. 2 artillery 1 plane. An elite shooter and 2 elite chopper, plus the the hell brute looks rigged for CC, and 6 HQ. 2 smashfuckers 2 support a psycher and 1 other.


Nothing in the list looks devistationing except the unit of Lazcannons, which is going to put some hurt on 1 tank and then get shot up.

I don't know chaos well (but am starting an army) how is that list for mobility and applying pressure. A list that plays differently from mpst Chaos armies should look different than most chaos armies, but I can't tell how this would play.

Post a replay. Its easy enough if you snap a couple pictures with your phone. Then we can judge your tatical prowess.

Headlss wrote:
He's got 3 units of troops. 2 artillery 1 plane. An elite shooter and 2 elite chopper, plus the the hell brute looks rigged for CC, and 6 HQ. 2 smashfuckers 2 support a psycher and 1 other.


Nothing in the list looks devistationing except the unit of Lazcannons, which is going to put some hurt on 1 tank and then get shot up.

I don't know chaos well (but am starting an army) how is that list for mobility and applying pressure. A list that plays differently from mpst Chaos armies should look different than most chaos armies, but I can't tell how this would play.

Post a replay. Its easy enough if you snap a couple pictures with your phone. Then we can judge your tatical prowess.

The list seems, beyond the Drake, terrible mobility wise, since the AL stratagem got a hike off a cliff thanks to GW.

Also fielding a dark apostle is questionable if you don't field a lot of cultists, even as a cheap HQ he get's out done by the tougher Warpsmith (which btw can deal significant damage to vehicles or shoot something up) and one Rhino.
The cultists whilest technically mobile due to Tide of traitors are too few to really takeadvantage of their existence. Why on earth he gave a HB to the 5 man marine squad is beyond me, possesed need warptime, and that is not guaranteed since a sorcerer ain't ahriman, the drake is questionable at best due to it's price. Total also he is on the shorter end of CP.

I'll echo those saying that yeah, this is NOT a tournament ready list.

Is this a joke thread?

 grouchoben wrote:
Is this a joke thread?

lmfao! I slapped my thigh and had a good chuckle. I logged in just to write about how hard i laughed at this thread.

The date is april 1st. I was hoping brazen jaw would tell us another funny joke about how he made something competitive. Alas, no update.

the points are not even right.

With AL though:
big unit, mark or nurgle, sorcerer and a DA - MEQ hitting you on 6's now something like that 'might' be useful