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I had my first game yesterday, and although it was pretty brutal for me, I liked it.

My List: Hallowed Knights

1 Relictor
1 Heraldor

5 X Liberators w Shield/Hammer
5 X Liberators w Shield/Hammer
5 X Retributors w Hammers/Starsoul Mace
3 X Prosecutors w Hammers

My opponents List: Hammers of Sigmar

1 Lord Arcanum on Gryph
1 Knight Incantor

10 X Sequitors w Mace/Shield + 3 Great Mace
5 X Evocators
6 X Castigators


So my thoughts:

It is clear that magic and magic users are a must take. Buffs are HUGE and combined with my inability to stop his magic (except my 6+ ignore, which didn't do much) I got stomped into the dust hard both games I played.

It feels odd not to have many 3+ armor saves, but I guess that's just a quirk of the game reserving those for heroes? The Hearldor was great! My opponent did end up taking a great many mortal wounds thanks to our table and his need to keep hugging the magic terrain we rolled. Over two games, the Hearldor managed to kill 12 models!

The Relictor didn't really seem to be worth taking honestly, he didn't do much with either of his abilities, and his prayer was mostly useless (ignore battleshock tests for one unit). I think I'd rather have just had a good wizard.

I was also surprised at how useless the castigators were, even though he can make them hit on a 2+ and other rerolls for his wounds, they only managed to kill two liberators in game 1 and 3 in game two. Also, Starsoul maces are amazing.

All in all I am looking forward to getting more models and playing more games!

Buffs are HUGE and combined with my inability to stop his magic (except my 6+ ignore, which didn't do much) I got stomped into the dust hard both games I played.

AOS moved away from traditional wargame and heavily toward ccg style games where the name of the game is in fact min/maxing your buffs and synergies.

Listbuilding is a tool to get your max synergies and buffs.

Additionally your list utilizes units that are for the most part seen as overcost for what they do (with the exception of retributors...which are cost right, which makes them seem like they cost more)

Vs sequitors and evocators which are mechanically better AND the same cost (so undercost)

So you lost to a combination of buffs + your opponent had a much more efficient army list than you did in terms of points spent vs return on investment.

Your example is a picture perfect example of what we're discussing in the balance thread.

auticus wrote:

Buffs are HUGE and combined with my inability to stop his magic (except my 6+ ignore, which didn't do much) I got stomped into the dust hard both games I played.

AOS moved away from traditional wargame and heavily toward ccg style games where the name of the game is in fact min/maxing your buffs and synergies.

Listbuilding is a tool to get your max synergies and buffs.

Additionally your list utilizes units that are for the most part seen as overcost for what they do (with the exception of retributors...which are cost right, which makes them seem like they cost more)

Vs sequitors and evocators which are mechanically better AND the same cost (so undercost)

So you lost to a combination of buffs + your opponent had a much more efficient army list than you did in terms of points spent vs return on investment.

Can definitely see that.

I flet like the liberators need some kind of inbuilt rule to buff their own damage or something. It was easy to tell that the new Sacrosanct Chamber are mechanically better. Unfortunately for me, I like the older more traditional paladin style models. Outside of some Evocators, I don't really care for the newer models and will likely not pick any up.

Also, keep in mind we ignored points entirely. We set out "equalizer" at 20 models or less for these two battles.

Even if you used even points, that setup would have been a huge uphill battle for you. Liberators are cost like or similar sequitors, but sequitors are hugely better for example.

As compared to 40k saves are worse (much worse) but wounds counts are higher, shooting is shorter range and costs more points to bring, MWs are easier to deal a bunch of, and summoning new stuff is free.

auticus wrote:
Even if you used even points, that setup would have been a huge uphill battle for you. Liberators are cost like or similar sequitors, but sequitors are hugely better for example.

for those of us who are quite bull headed, what is used to make Liberators have more of an edge?

Give the champion a grandweapon since he has an extra attack with it, make sure they are fighting something with a 5+ wounds characteristic as much as possible, and use them to take wounds in place of more valuable units.

Sequitors are ridiculously better, but that is a very common feedback so it is quite likely the next update will nerf them.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Give the champion a grandweapon since he has an extra attack with it, make sure they are fighting something with a 5+ wounds characteristic as much as possible, and use them to take wounds in place of more valuable units.

Sequitors are ridiculously better, but that is a very common feedback so it is quite likely the next update will nerf them.

I can't seem to find much access to rerolling hits or wounds, I did notice that a lot of my hits are on a 4+ which makes it a lot harder to get in there. Also, I feel that 1 handed warhammers should be Dmg 2 on a 6+ to wound. Lol, maybe, I dunno how good that would be.

You'll find that Sequitors being able to reroll so many of their things, and rerolling in general, to be quite the rare thing indeed. Most of what you'll get is rerolling 1s to hit.

If I'm remembering right, Sylvaneth's only rerolls are... Treelord Ancient's Rerolling 1's on armor save aoe buff command ability, Alarielle's once-per-game Reroll All wounds for the turn, Kurnoth Hunters can reroll Armor saves in melee if they opt to not charge, and go down to 1" Pile-In, and a Command Trait that rerolls 1s to hit in a 6" bubble.

Okay so maybe there's more than I first thought, but it's not like 40k Space Marines and Eldar that hand out mass rerolls like candy.

Likewise, Hitting on 4+ is 'good' relative to AoS. It's elite units, or damage-focused models that will be hitting on 3+ in melee, like Namarti Thralls that ride in to battle wearing paper armor, or heroes and so on.

2+ armor saves and 2+ to hit and wound, and -2 Rend stats are rare.

 Togusa wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Give the champion a grandweapon since he has an extra attack with it, make sure they are fighting something with a 5+ wounds characteristic as much as possible, and use them to take wounds in place of more valuable units.

Sequitors are ridiculously better, but that is a very common feedback so it is quite likely the next update will nerf them.

I can't seem to find much access to rerolling hits or wounds, I did notice that a lot of my hits are on a 4+ which makes it a lot harder to get in there. Also, I feel that 1 handed warhammers should be Dmg 2 on a 6+ to wound. Lol, maybe, I dunno how good that would be.

Their lay low the tyrant rule gets them +1 to hit, and a lord celestant can give them a further +1 but something to remember is that dealing damage is not the role of liberators; they are a chaff-anvil unit. A classic combo is liberators in front and judicators (always take bows) behind which still works well.