Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Rather than relying on psychic & stratagem & CT gimmicks, we need Assault Vehicle rule back.

For ground vehicles:
Assault Vehicle
Units embarked in this vehicle can disembark after the transport has moved rather than before moving as normal. Units disembarking this fashion cannot move any further for any reason the turn they disembark, but can charge as normal. The units may not disembark if the transport has advanced.

For flying transports:
Rapid Insertion
Units embarked in this vehicle can disembark after the transport has moved rather than before moving as normal. Units disembarking this fashion cannot move any further for any reason the turn they disembark, but can charge as normal. The units may not disembark if the transport has advanced.

Hover Jet (Revised):
Before this model moves in your Movement phase, you can declare it will hover. Its Move characteristic becomes 20" until the end of the phase, and it loses the Airborne, Hard to Hit and Supersonic abilities until the beginning of your next Movement phase and gains Rapid Insertion ability until the beginning of your next Movement phase.

Why is this still not a thing (or rather, why is it a thing only for IG??????)? How can this rule break the game? Is reliable charge that detrimental to the game?

Agreed. Giving that rule to Land Raiders and Storm Ravens would go a long way to fixing space marines.

I can dig it. I like your first version best as it's simpler and give a "drawback" that they vehicle cannot have Advanced.
I thing you should also add that units embarking cannot move afterwards either (besides the 3" disembark).

Basically you should trade the unit's normal movement for the Vehicles, which is often better.
If you allow the Vehicle to move, then the unit's disembark and move, you get crazy long distances for things like Harlies in Starweavers
16" vehicle move + 3" disembark + Infantry move 8" + d6 Advance + 2d6 Charge? That's a guaranteed T1 charge and some crazy movement.

But trading their 8" move for 16" seems fair

-

Wouldn't put the mortal wound version on Land Raiders; it's there because that's how grav-chute disembark from Valkyries used to work, not because it's needed to balance the concept.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Wouldn't put the mortal wound version on Land Raiders; it's there because that's how grav-chute disembark from Valkyries used to work, not because it's needed to balance the concept.

Yeah, I'd avoid the "can Advance but models suffer wounds" proposal on everything save maybe Ork Vehicles, cuz dats Orky

-

And I think it should be fairly limited to certain transports only. So far, I suggest it be applied to only:

-Land Raider & all variants
-Battlewagon
-Trukk

As for the flying transports, given their movement, I don't think it's fair to give them the rules too. Perhaps a modified version of it:

Rapid Insertion
Units embarked in this vehicle can disembark after the transport has moved rather than before moving as normal. Units disembarking this fashion cannot move any further for any reason the turn they disembark, but can charge as normal. The units may not disembark if the transport has advanced.

Hover Jet (Revised):
Before this model moves in your Movement phase, you can declare it will hover. Its Move characteristic becomes 20" until the end of the phase, and it loses the Airborne, Hard to Hit and Supersonic abilities until the beginning of your next Movement phase and gains Rapid Insertion abilities until the beginning of your next Movement phase.

 skchsan wrote:

Rapid Insertion
Units embarked in this vehicle can disembark after the transport has moved rather than before moving as normal. Units disembarking this fashion cannot move any further for any reason the turn they disembark, but can charge as normal. The units may not disembark if the transport has advanced.

Perfect. Don't forget to give this to DE Raiders and Harlie StarWeavers too. Maybe even Necron Ghost Arks (even though you won't see 10 Warriors charging anything)

-

Yeah, in general i would prefer disembark after transport has moved. No moving allowed for the unit except in charge and fight phases. Can not disembark in the same turn that it embarked. The unit counts as having advanced too.

I 100% believe that assault vehicles should offer SOME benefit. Hell, the only reason to use trukks last edition was that you could assault out of it.

That being said................

Being able to move the vehicle, disembark, move, and THEN charge is a little strong, especially for things like storm ravens.

I would probably limit vehicle movement to, say, half normal move. Like, if the assault vehicle moves half or under its move speed, units can get out.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I 100% believe that assault vehicles should offer SOME benefit. Hell, the only reason to use trukks last edition was that you could assault out of it.

That being said................

Being able to move the vehicle, disembark, move, and THEN charge is a little strong, especially for things like storm ravens.

I would probably limit vehicle movement to, say, half normal move. Like, if the assault vehicle moves half or under its move speed, units can get out.

There's not really a point then, for transports with a 12" move. The units inside get to move 6", disembark, and assault... still gives them a mediocre threat range.

For things like flyers, yea moving 60" and assaulting is dumb. So add a rule that, "If a vehicle moves over 12 inches in the movement phase, disembarking infantry may not declare a charge for any reason". Problem solved.

 Galef wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

Rapid Insertion
Units embarked in this vehicle can disembark after the transport has moved rather than before moving as normal. Units disembarking this fashion cannot move any further for any reason the turn they disembark, but can charge as normal. The units may not disembark if the transport has advanced.

Perfect. Don't forget to give this to DE Raiders and Harlie StarWeavers too. Maybe even Necron Ghost Arks (even though you won't see 10 Warriors charging anything)

-

I'd be pretty happy with that. I mean, I'm pretty happy with how things are now, but I do kind of miss launching wyches and incubi out of their transports and into the fray.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shas'O'Ceris wrote:
Yeah, in general i would prefer disembark after transport has moved. No moving allowed for the unit except in charge and fight phases. Can not disembark in the same turn that it embarked. The unit counts as having advanced too.

Not sure I like the "counts as having advanced" part. That would prevent most units from shooting after disembarking a vehicle that has moved which is rough for bolters, splinter rifle warriors, pistol units, etc. On the other hand, that would sort of give you a reason to take the unpopular assault variants of some weapons (I'm thinking pulse carbies) and add value to things like the Black Legion tactic.

Also, obviously you'd have to clarify that units could still charge despite "counting as having advanced."

GW would more than likely make this a 2 CP Stratagem instead. And also make it only work with Land Raiders and not LAND RAIDERS because GW are good writers like that.

I was thinking just yesterday that a way to make assault marines or vanguard marines even slightly more viable would be to allow squads equipped with jumpacks to disembark after a storm raven or other marine flyer transport has moved.

Land Raiders being assault vehicles again would also be great, I think I'd let units disembark and move still to be honest. Maybe only certain assault vehicles would allow this... A land raider would as it has an assault ramp, other assault vehicles such as an ork trukk wouldn't.

I'd allow drop pods to drop up to 9" away and then the deep strike rules would not apply to the unit inside, so they could disembark closer than 9", they wouldn't get to move again though.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shas'O'Ceris wrote:
Yeah, in general i would prefer disembark after transport has moved. No moving allowed for the unit except in charge and fight phases. Can not disembark in the same turn that it embarked. The unit counts as having advanced too.

Not sure I like the "counts as having advanced" part. That would prevent most units from shooting after disembarking a vehicle that has moved which is rough for bolters, splinter rifle warriors, pistol units, etc. On the other hand, that would sort of give you a reason to take the unpopular assault variants of some weapons (I'm thinking pulse carbies) and add value to things like the Black Legion tactic.

Also, obviously you'd have to clarify that units could still charge despite "counting as having advanced."

I think I meant if the transport advances so does the disembarking unit. Or maybe it is necessary to have limited shooting this way, because giving something nice to CC and ranged equally means overbuffing ranged by comparison. Who cares about units trying a 8" charge at best into screens when obliterators could shoot anything in 24" without penalty out of a T1 DS (and then both get nerfed, but which is hurt more)? Getting meltaguns or rapidfire into range T1 by moving and disembarking is pretty good and doesn't rely on a charge roll. Flyers can kind of do it now but take up double slots and often have more limited loadouts. Imagine the new havocs with chaincannons, T1 rhino moves 12, disembark 3, dakkadakkadakkadakka no movement penalty for em either, lord and sorc fit in with them even. That's probably worth the rhino's points.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
GW would more than likely make this a 2 CP Stratagem instead. And also make it only work with Land Raiders and not LAND RAIDERS because GW are good writers like that.

You know, i belive that might very well happen.

Actually that will happen probably.

Shas'O'Ceris wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shas'O'Ceris wrote:
Yeah, in general i would prefer disembark after transport has moved. No moving allowed for the unit except in charge and fight phases. Can not disembark in the same turn that it embarked. The unit counts as having advanced too.

Not sure I like the "counts as having advanced" part. That would prevent most units from shooting after disembarking a vehicle that has moved which is rough for bolters, splinter rifle warriors, pistol units, etc. On the other hand, that would sort of give you a reason to take the unpopular assault variants of some weapons (I'm thinking pulse carbies) and add value to things like the Black Legion tactic.

Also, obviously you'd have to clarify that units could still charge despite "counting as having advanced."

I think I meant if the transport advances so does the disembarking unit. Or maybe it is necessary to have limited shooting this way, because giving something nice to CC and ranged equally means overbuffing ranged by comparison. Who cares about units trying a 8" charge at best into screens when obliterators could shoot anything in 24" without penalty out of a T1 DS (and then both get nerfed, but which is hurt more)? Getting meltaguns or rapidfire into range T1 by moving and disembarking is pretty good and doesn't rely on a charge roll. Flyers can kind of do it now but take up double slots and often have more limited loadouts. Imagine the new havocs with chaincannons, T1 rhino moves 12, disembark 3, dakkadakkadakkadakka no movement penalty for em either, lord and sorc fit in with them even. That's probably worth the rhino's points.

Hmm. I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure I'm really opposed to the situation that would create. Especially if we're only making certain vehicles (land raiders, maybe open topped vehicles, etc.) into "assault" vehicles that allow disembarkation after movement. If someone wants to put a bunch of havocs into a land raider so that they can move said havocs closer to my lines in exchange for the ability to shoot turn 1, that kind of seems like a reasonable trade off. They'll do some damage to me, and then I'll kill the havocs right back on my coming turn.

Land raiders are expensive. Drukhari are squishy. Orks tend to be some combination of expensive and/or squishy. I'm not sure letting someone shoot and charge with terminators as they disembark from a land raider is a bad thing.

That said, I'd be tempted to disallow disembarking from a vehicle that advances at all. if it's advancing, it's focusing on going fast rather than on allowing passengers to hop out safely. Plus, that makes it easier to guestimate how many inches of extra movement an assault transport actually provides.

 skchsan wrote:
Rather than relying on psychic & stratagem & CT gimmicks, we need Assault Vehicle rule back.

Assault Vehicle
Units embarked in this vehicle can disembark after the transport has moved rather than before moving as normal. The units may not disembark if the transport has advanced.
or
Units embarked in this vehicle can disembark after the transport has moved rather than before moving as normal. If the transport has advanced, the units that disembark must roll a d6 for each model in the unit - for each roll of 6, the unit takes a 1 mortal wound.

Why is this still not a thing (or rather, why is it a thing only for IG??????)? How can this rule break the game? Is reliable charge that detrimental to the game?

It's not a thing because T1 charges from within 9" is not fair for less than 100 pts worth of investment, because now you can move and charge after disembarking. With Orks you could go 12+4+5+3+7=31" Charge turn 1, 34" with the right Klan. IG also lost the ability this very last FAQ so that question is rather poor. With Necrons you have to get a 200 pt Elites unit and a further 200 pts worth of HQs to charge in with 1 of those HQs and a single Sautekh Dynasty Infantry unit from within 3", but the other HQ cannot charge. Not only is the ability to charge T1 balanced by the large cost to return on investment, but also by the fact that the Sautekh Dynasty is the shooty Dynasty. It'd be like giving Bad Moons and Raven Guard Assault Vehicles, but also making those vehicles twice as expensive. Alternatively, Necrons can use that 200 pts Elites unit and a 300 pt HS unit and 1 CP to get in a unit from any Dynasty to charge from within 4", but now we are giving that 300 pt HS unit a non-optimal Dynasty. Magnus can also charge from within 9" T1, but he has support abilities that turn off when he charges in and his Legion gives him extra range on his Psychic powers, so that's basically useless if he is going to be within 2" of enemy units anyways. You also cannot spam Magnus, unlike with Land Raiders or Trukks, so no 7+ units charging from within 9" T1. Necrons can charge from within 9" with 2 Infantry units and up to 10 HQs and a further 10 HQs or 10 Warriors for a total of 1000 pts + cost of the 2 Infantry units + the cost of the 10 HQs and the cost of the next 10 HQs/Warriors. That's about 4 Trukks worth of content unloaded within 9" of enemy units but you'd also need a Warboss, so each Trukk would be 225 pts.

 vict0988 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Rather than relying on psychic & stratagem & CT gimmicks, we need Assault Vehicle rule back.

Assault Vehicle
Units embarked in this vehicle can disembark after the transport has moved rather than before moving as normal. The units may not disembark if the transport has advanced.
or
Units embarked in this vehicle can disembark after the transport has moved rather than before moving as normal. If the transport has advanced, the units that disembark must roll a d6 for each model in the unit - for each roll of 6, the unit takes a 1 mortal wound.

Why is this still not a thing (or rather, why is it a thing only for IG??????)? How can this rule break the game? Is reliable charge that detrimental to the game?

It's not a thing because T1 charges from within 9" is not fair for less than 100 pts worth of investment, because now you can move and charge after disembarking. With Orks you could go 12+4+5+3+7=31" Charge turn 1, 34" with the right Klan. IG also lost the ability this very last FAQ so that question is rather poor. With Necrons you have to get a 200 pt Elites unit and a further 200 pts worth of HQs to charge in with 1 of those HQs and a single Sautekh Dynasty Infantry unit from within 3", but the other HQ cannot charge. Not only is the ability to charge T1 balanced by the large cost to return on investment, but also by the fact that the Sautekh Dynasty is the shooty Dynasty. It'd be like giving Bad Moons and Raven Guard Assault Vehicles, but also making those vehicles twice as expensive. Alternatively, Necrons can use that 200 pts Elites unit and a 300 pt HS unit and 1 CP to get in a unit from any Dynasty to charge from within 4", but now we are giving that 300 pt HS unit a non-optimal Dynasty. Magnus can also charge from within 9" T1, but he has support abilities that turn off when he charges in and his Legion gives him extra range on his Psychic powers, so that's basically useless if he is going to be within 2" of enemy units anyways. You also cannot spam Magnus, unlike with Land Raiders or Trukks, so no 7+ units charging from within 9" T1. Necrons can charge from within 9" with 2 Infantry units and up to 10 HQs and a further 10 HQs or 10 Warriors for a total of 1000 pts + cost of the 2 Infantry units + the cost of the 10 HQs and the cost of the next 10 HQs/Warriors. That's about 4 Trukks worth of content unloaded within 9" of enemy units but you'd also need a Warboss, so each Trukk would be 225 pts.

I'd agree with the 'no moving after disembarking' clause - this hasn't been editted/added on the OP.

Having said, it is extremely fallacious to claim that turn 1 charges are game breaking. Turn 1 charges are not "balanced by the large cost to return on investments," but rather simply cost prohibitive. The one true example of turn 1 charge abuse was in the form of berzerkers in rhino with plasmagun, where it moves, overcharges against targets with -hit modifers, reroll explodes, emergency disembark, charge, consolidate, fight again, and consolidate. This was fixed through various rules changes/clarifications.

An effective turn 1 charges are extremely involved, from maxing out unit, investing in CP batteries (on average, it requires 4+ CP's for the turn 1 wombocombo), and/or specific units to provide the necessary buff. More often than not, this maneuver never exceed a certain return past its point expenditure - it is often a 1 to 1 exchange, points wise.

Either the game outright removes melee from the game as a core mechanic, or melee needs some sort of buff to keep it going.