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Warmaster?

Some version of massed miniatures regimental combat using movement trays?

What does that remind anyone of?

Quite seriously, I think it makes sense to do, but the irony of the wheel turning full circle is almost too much.

Does AoS really need it? We can already use the Open Play rules to run 10 Blood Thirsters. Plus with the rules being much more different, shooting isn't as big in this game as it is in 40K, so the balance isn't quite as bad.

The aos fan base could largely give a toss about proper mass battle so i doubt we will see aos apoc.

We'll get Legendary Battles. Or another name more fitting in the future.

It'll need some time, though. But GW will do it eventually. The game system doesn't work well once it gets too high in points, and they already write something about it in the General Handbook 2018 page 36. There'll be a new version of those rules, I have no doubt about it.

Warcry seems more like the AoS Necromunda.

GW seems to be aiming to have a version of the game(40k/AoS) for following groups.

- Skirmish. For those who are just dipping their toe into the hobby.
- Wargame. For those who want to commit themselves somewhat and fight a large battle.
- Battle of the Five Armies. For those who have been collecting for a long time and need an excuse to field it all and/or buy more.

They currently have 40k in all of those categories and AoS in 2 out of 3 with Warcry. I am also willing to bet that when AoS gets its apoc it will be a rank and file system with movement trays that simulate rank and file for round bases..

Hmm you could do some kind of rank and file game with huge blocks of infantry trying to outflank and charge each other, it could use movement trays to speed things up.

You could have terrain mater with proper rules that are not just the magic woods eat your units, in the same way you could have movement and formations matter other than silly daisy chain formations and other cheesy bollocks.

Nahhh I don’t think that would catch on with the AoS dice chukkers to complicated and I doubt GW have anyone left who could design it

AoS will eventually get a mass battle version I have no doubt, but the game is still far to young for that. Its works in 40k because...well, it's 40k and people have huge collections. AoS has only been around since 2015. Give it a few more years and We'll get it I have no doubt.

 Togusa wrote:
Does AoS really need it? We can already use the Open Play rules to run 10 Blood Thirsters. Plus with the rules being much more different, shooting isn't as big in this game as it is in 40K, so the balance isn't quite as bad.

You could say that about 40k. Why don't people just play 8th at higher points values?

Having played a game of Apoc today, I can say it's a very different game. It puts a lot of emphasis on the big units. Infantry can still dish out damage and play a role, but you're rewarded for bringing your Titans, not punished like you are in 40k.

The main issue is more that AoS doesn't have any Titanic units. It's not a big enough game to warrant them. Yeah you've got Nagash and Alarielle and Morathi, but those models don't even reach a Warlord's crotch in size.

That, and... well, growing to the point where you had several movement trays worth of units is what killed Warhammer Fantasy. When you needed 4 boxes of models to fill out one troop option... Let's see if AoS continues to grow as it has been, and maybe in the next 5 years or so, we'll get some titanic sized units for the game and then people will start talking about AoS apocalypse in earnest. Not just because 40k has it, but because AoS players want it.

The reason Apoc exists is because some 40k players have 10,000 models already, so there's no incentive for them to buy anymore. There might also be some frustration that they can't use most of their models most of the time. Apoc not only gives them a chance to use all their models, but it also provides a new vector for adding new units to their collection.

I don't think most AoS players have spent the last 40 years collecting thousands of models, and most of the factions only have a handful of different units so even if you collected all the Sylvaneth (for example), your collection would still be relatively small for something like Apoc, just because you'll max out your collection pretty quickly.

Something like Apoc isn't impossible, but I think the AoS needs more breadth for that to happen, and I think it needs a few more years of bundles, so that people end up with hundreds of models they don't regularly use to fill out the ranks.

 Togusa wrote:
Does AoS really need it? We can already use the Open Play rules to run 10 Blood Thirsters. Plus with the rules being much more different, shooting isn't as big in this game as it is in 40K, so the balance isn't quite as bad.

You could use open rules in 40k to run 10 warlord titans if you were so inclined. Doesn't mean game would have felt like actually fielding 10 warlord titans though. Or 30k orks feeling like huge big battle in 40k. You don't get big battle feel just by upping points. Eventually system breaks down and it just feels mess rather than big battle. Nor can you get small skirmish feeling by downgrading points. Right rules for the right job.

Well for big battle feel you would either up the board size(say hello to 18'x12' boards...) or scale down size of models...

With the doubt as to whether AoS needs a mass battle system, is AoS a simpler(faster) game to play than 40K?

SamusDrake wrote:
With the doubt as to whether AoS needs a mass battle system, is AoS a simpler(faster) game to play than 40K?

Its simpler but i think a mass rank and file mode would be cool to harken back to the older systems.

 Desubot wrote:


Its simpler but i think a mass rank and file mode would be cool to harken back to the older systems.

Just considering jumping into AoS and a simple system would be welcome after all the other games I've been playing of late. Cheers for that.

I think if AoS went mass-battle, it would most likely be centered around the four alliances and how the individual factions cooperate(bit like in the LOTR movies); probably requiring at least two different factions to play. If Apocalypse is about managing a single, large scale army with heavy vehicles and titans, then "Mass-AoS" could be about managing multiple armies and how they function as a whole.

But thats just guessing without having yet delved into AoS...

Oddly enough, on my annual pilgrimage to holy Warhammer World the other day, I saw.....

Yep, AoS undead on a movement tray

Enjoyed my first game of Appcolypse and be happy to try out the same with AOS

 Skinflint Games wrote:
Oddly enough, on my annual pilgrimage to holy Warhammer World the other day, I saw.....

Yep, AoS undead on a movement tray

Probably just done that for the sake of convinence, but even still...it makes one wonder.

Just a thought; as AoS had Skirmish and then Warcry, could it be that they will go the same route with a mass-system? The movement trays are already there to use, and could do a budget expansion booklet - like Skirmish to test the waters? Maybe even a WD article?

Nothing that would stop GW from making it up.

Hey since 40k apoc borrows so heavily from epic maybe AOS equilavent would borrow heavily from warmaster

I’m in favour of an AoS apocalypse type game for sure. AoS don’t have any real titanic units at the moment but that could certainly change. They definitely exist in the lore; I’ve heard about god-beasts and city sized cog forts and so on and so forth.

Centring it around the four grand alliances would probably be the best way to go too.

I have over 6k BoC, so i would play it, but IDK if i really want to field all those models, but it would be fun to play with all my Monsters, thats something i hate about AoS, i cant play with all my monsters at the same time, i have 8 (Limited to 4) 3 Chimeras, 2 Ghorgons, 2 Cygors, Jabberslycthe.

I can play everything else in any normal game, but those 8 monsters.

Remember whilst AoS is 5 years old and technically has a huge legacy of Old World ebhind it; its still a newish game on the market. If you look at comparable points values AoS armies tend to put less model down even at the 2K point level than for 40K.

I figure that a mass battle system like Apoc WILL come for Aos, but it might be further off as GW lets the market expand collections up en mass. Apoc is a reaction to having a mature market where many people have well over 5K points in tehir armies and want to put them on the table. AoS is getting there and heck GW might just release it anyway.


Warmaster though, that wouldn't come back unless G re-release it as a specialist game and honestly a Warmaster AoS would be utterly fantastic. That said I don't expect to even hear a whiff of rumour of that coming until such a point as GW has released a new and strong selling version of Epic. Which appears to be potentially on the cards but is a veyr long way off. Heck Adepticus Titanicus hasn't even got any chaos models let alone Xenos.

I tried typing out what a unit profile for an AoS apocalypse type game might look like. In this case, Moonclan Stabbas and a Kharadron Overlord Arkanaut Company:

Moonclan Stabbas:

(20 models) M: 5” A: 4 W: 2 B: 4 S: 10+
(40 models) M: 5” A: 8 W: 4 B: 5 S: 10+
(60 models) M: 5” A: 12 W: 6 B: 6 S: 10+

Stabbin’ Weapons: Range: Melee To Hit: 5+ To Wound: 4+

Description: Stabbas are a unit that contains 20 models. It can contain 40 models or 60 models. They are armed with Stabbin’ Weapons.

Gong Bashers: For every 20 models in this unit, 1 can be a Gong Basher. For every Gong Basher in this unit, add 1 to its Movement when Charging.

Standard Bearers: For every 20 models in this unit, 1 can be either a Moonclan Flag Bearer or a Bad Moon Icon Bearer. For every Moonclan Flag Bearer in this unit, add 1 to its Bravery. For every Bad Moon Icon Bearer in this unit, add 1 to its save against ranged attacks.

Netters: For every 20 models in this unit, 3 can be armed with barded nets. If an enemy unit is with 2” of any models with a barded net, reduce their attack characteristic by 1.

Backstabbing Mob: When making a Fight action, add 1 to the wound rolls of this unit’s melee weapons if it contains at least twice as many models as the unit it is targeting.

Arkanaut Company:

(10 models) M: 4” A: 2 W: 2 B: 6 S: 10+
(20 models) M: 4” A: 4 W: 4 B: 7 S: 10+
(30 models) M: 4” A: 6 W: 6 B: 8 S: 10+

Privateer Pistols: Range: 12” To Hit: 4+ To Wound: 4+
Arkanaut Cutters: Range: Melee To Hit: 4+ To Wound: 4+

Description: An Arkanaut Company is a unit that contains 10 models. It can contain 20 models or 30 models. It is armed with Privateer Pistols and Arkanaut Cutters.

Aethermatic Volley Gun: For every 10 models in this unit, 1 can be armed with an Aethermatic Volley Gun. For every model in this unit that is armed with an Aethermatic Volley Gun, add 1 to the unit’s Attacks characteristic when making a shooting action.

Light Skyhook: For every 10 models in this unit, 1 can be armed with a Light Skyhook. For every model in this unit that is armed with a Light Skyhook, add 1 to the unit’s Attacks characteristic when making a shooting action.

Skypike: For every 10 models in this unit, 1 can be armed with a Skypike. For every model in this unit that is armed with a Skypike, add 1 to the unit’s Attacks characteristic when making a fight action.

Glory-seekers: Add 1 to the hit rolls of this unit when attacking a Hero or Monster.

——

I’ve had to take some artist licence with the profiles but I think such a system would be doable. I’m finding too that balance is easier to achieve in this system. I have left out points at the minute but they shouldn’t be too difficult to work out.

I would be utterly terrified to see what kind of streamlined gakking Warmaster would get choked into today if GW was responsible for releasing it again.

Warmaster is a game all about movements and maneuvering on the battlefield where characters provide minor buffs.

CCGing it would be massively painful.

While I enjoyed the Old World, and I've no love for AoS....Apocalypse has always been more about getting "bigger" toys on the table, and not just "more" toys on the table. While they streamline stuff so you can put all your minis on the table it's also about getting titans, mega-tanks, knights, etc. on the table since they're too big or priced out of casual games.

For comparison, what models does AoS have in any regard which are Titan or Knight sized? You have that big Glotkin thing...what else is even close to "Apocalypse" scale for the AoS community?

Archaon. Nagash. Morathi. But those are seen in normal games.

Granted... the titans and stuff are now in normal 40k too except for things like the warlord.

Gotcha. I don't keep track of AoS so I didn't know if Forgeworld had any massive dragons or Squiggoth style huge fantastical beasts etc.

There is a massive khorne dragon but I've never seen anyone or heard of anyone use it because its rules are bad and its a waste of points.

 auticus wrote:
There is a massive khorne dragon but I've never seen anyone or heard of anyone use it because its rules are bad and its a waste of points.

It's rules are find and it will kill things very very very dead, but it's kind of like if you brought a bloodthirster to a 500 point matchup; too many points in one model that cannot be in multiple places at once. Were 2500+ point battles common I think you would see him. The price tag is also a big factor. Still, there was a guy running him at LVO and he did reasonably well.

 Elbows wrote:
While I enjoyed the Old World, and I've no love for AoS....Apocalypse has always been more about getting "bigger" toys on the table, and not just "more" toys on the table. While they streamline stuff so you can put all your minis on the table it's also about getting titans, mega-tanks, knights, etc. on the table since they're too big or priced out of casual games.

For comparison, what models does AoS have in any regard which are Titan or Knight sized? You have that big Glotkin thing...what else is even close to "Apocalypse" scale for the AoS community?

For my part. As someone who just started collecting gloomspite gitz. The benefit of apocalpyse would be that I could effectively field fully support grots, squigs, troggoths, and spiders without having to just pick two like you do for a regular sized game. Rather than field titans.

that said my army is in a unique position there. Stormcast or sylvaneth would for sure need big titans to make it worth anything.

 Elbows wrote:
While I enjoyed the Old World, and I've no love for AoS....Apocalypse has always been more about getting "bigger" toys on the table, and not just "more" toys on the table. While they streamline stuff so you can put all your minis on the table it's also about getting titans, mega-tanks, knights, etc. on the table since they're too big or priced out of casual games.

For comparison, what models does AoS have in any regard which are Titan or Knight sized? You have that big Glotkin thing...what else is even close to "Apocalypse" scale for the AoS community?

In the Lore - Load stuff from lumbering cogforts, vast elementals and gigantic constructs to cities on the back of land worms and up to Godbeasts

Models - its like 40k pre super heavies - so only a relative few really big stuff - mainly FW