Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi all


So I've just gotten back into gaming again and one of the biggest changes since I last played is that Formations are gone entirely and replaced by numerous different detachments. THis is very welcome albeit as formations were very broken in some circumstances, but I did always appreciate the "Fluffy" element it added. I was thinking that the CP system could be used to reward certain selections and combos that are in line with the fluff. For example, in C:SM a captain can become a Chapter Master for additional CP, gaining a slightly better Aura ability. Perhaps we could use CP to do formations again. That said, some of the abilities were really killer back in the day so it would have to be small buffs, or adequately costed. Here is one idea I had based off the suggestion below in the Eldar command rework thread




Librarius Conclave - Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Deathwatch, supplements (excludes SW and GK)

3 CP (for 3 Librarians) / 4CP cost (for 4-5 Librarians)

Before the battle begins, select 1 detachment that contains between 3 and 5 LIBRARIAN units that have the same <CHAPTER>. While a chosen LIBRARIAN unit is within 2" of another chosen LIBRARIAN unit, that LIBRARIAN, add or subtract 1 from 1 Psychic Test OR Deny the Witch per turn, for each other LIBRARIAN within 2" of the unit making the roll. You may not BOTH add and subtract from the same roll, and you must modify by the full amount each time. Note that a natural roll of double 1s will still fail the Psychic Test but no Perils of the Warp will take place. If the LIBRARIAN casting the power or Denying the Witch is within 2" of 4 other LIBRARIANS from the chosen detachment, the test is automatically considered to pass the Pyschic Test regardless of the result. Any LIBRARIAN model affected by this strategem may be targetted by the enemy regardless of the Character targeting rules if they are within 2" of another Librarian affected by this strategem, as long as the closest unit to the firing unit is also a Librarian affected by this strategem."



Its a really wordy one so would appreciate help on phrasing. But I've some other ideas such as


"Demi-Battle Company" - 3CP

"Choose 1 detachment in your army containing only SPACE MARINE units from the same <CHAPTER> chosen from the following list. The chosen detachment may include other units as well but only the selected units will benefit from this strategem.

- 1 CAPTAIN model (may not use the Chapter Master Strategem)
- 3 Tactical Squad, Intercessor Squad, Infiltrator Squad in any combination
- 1 Assault Squad, Bike Squad, Attack Bike Squad, Land Speeder Squad, Centurion Assault Squad, Inceptor Squad, Incursor Squad, Reiver Squad
- 1 Devastator Squad, Centurion Devastator Squad, Suppressor Squad, Aggressor Squad, Hellblaster Squad

All models selected will gain the following benefits for the entirety of the battle - +1LD, +1A. The captain's and lieutenant aura abilities are extended to 9" range.

"Battle Company" - 6CP

"Choose 1 detachment in your army containing only SPACE MARINE units from the same <CHAPTER> chosen from the following list. The chosen detachment may include other units as well but only the selected units will benefit from this strategem.

- 1 CAPTAIN (may not use the Chapter Master Strategem)
- 2 LIEUTENANT models
- 6 Tactical Squad, Intercessor Squad, Infiltrator Squad in any combination
- 2 Assault Squad, Bike Squad, Attack Bike Squad, Land Speeder Squad, Centurion Assault Squad, Inceptor Squad, Incursor Squad, Reiver Squad in any combination
- 2 Devastator Squad, Centurion Devastator Squad, Suppressor Squad, Aggressor Squad, Hellblaster Squad in any combination
- Optional: 1 ANCIENT model
- Optional: Company Veterans
- Optional: 1 COMPANY CHAMPION


All models selected will gain the following benefits for the entirety of the battle - +1LD +1A. Any aura abilities are extended to 9" range. Any unit affected by this strategem that is not a CHARACTER gains the Defenders of Humanity ability as long as they can draw line of sight to a CHARACTER affected by this strategem.



Obviously, still working out bugs and I believe these to be pretty powerful (self-defeating argument I guess) but I attempt to balance by large CP costs. In both cases, it would likely upset the added CP gained from the detachments.

Librarius Conclave is worded... I won't say "poorly", since I'm not sure how to word it better, but very clunkily. Also, why would you ever SUBTRACT from a Psychic or DtW test?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Librarius Conclave is worded... I won't say "poorly", since I'm not sure how to word it better, but very clunkily. Also, why would you ever SUBTRACT from a Psychic or DtW test?

Specifically to avoid a double 1s or 6s perils, however you might also want to hit a specific number for a particular reason. Its mostly to avoid Perils if for example, you roll a double 6. Although I do suppose you could just add 1 to avoid it.

Another use might he if you used Smite but wanted to keep the unit alive so you could charge later. Smite on a WC of 10+ inflicts D6 mortal wounds instead of DPerhaps you want to keep that 4 man squad alive so your Reivers get an extra movement this turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forgot to say but yes, the Conclave is TERRIBLY worded apologies for that!,

Except that’s not how it works. It’s not a result of 2 or 12, it’s snake eyes or boxcars. Modifiers don’t matter.

 Deadshot wrote:
Hi all
So I've just gotten back into gaming again and one of the biggest changes since I last played is that Formations are gone entirely and replaced by numerous different detachments.

This sentence makes me unsure whether or not you're familiar with the Vigilus detachments. They basically do what you seem to be aiming for but have a few advantages over your approach. Basically, they work as follows:

* You spend a CP to make a detachment a "special" detachment.
* Certain units within that detachment can be given a special keyword by spending an extra CP on them.
* Taking a special detachment unlocks a relic, warlord trait, and stratagem that can be used by units with the special keyword.
* I think some versions of this give units that you spend CP on a special rule that is constantly active, but don't quote me on that.

By doing things this way, you...
* Don't have to take wonky detachments made up of extremely specific units. You're just encouraged to put your thematically appropriate units in that detachment so that you can pay CP to give them the special keyword. I could, for instance, take a wraith lord (an eldar dreadnaught) in a windrider host detachment (a detachment that buffs speedy bikes), but the wraith lord wouldn't suddenly gain some benefit intended for a bike. However, I also wouldn't have to worry about finding a force org slot in another detachment to fit him into.

* The CP cost scales based on how many units benefit from the special rules. Rather than guesstimating that a Battle Company will have X units worth Y points getting Z points worth of buffs, you just pay 1CP to give a single unit 1CP's worth of benefits.

As for, what you've presented so far, JNA is quite correct about how perils work. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by this this....

Any LIBRARIAN model affected by this strategem may be targetted by the enemy regardless of the Character targeting rules if they are within 2" of another Librarian affected by this strategem, as long as the closest unit to the firing unit is also a Librarian affected by this strategem.

..., but I think your intention is to prevent librarians (characters) from screening for other librarians (characters). This is already how the game works in general. If enemy character A is 6" away, enemy character B is 8", and the third closest enemy unit is 12" away, then you can shoot either A or B at your leisure; they don't screen for one another.

Thanks for the feedback folks! As I say I'm starting over with gaming and so I will inevitably have missed some developments, especially with detachment rules having changed so much from the old FOC.

JNAProductions wrote:Except that’s not how it works. It’s not a result of 2 or 12, it’s snake eyes or boxcars. Modifiers don’t matter.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Deadsho wrote:
Any LIBRARIAN model affected by this strategem may be targetted by the enemy regardless of the Character targeting rules if they are within 2" of another Librarian affected by this strategem, as long as the closest unit to the firing unit is also a Librarian affected by this strategem.

As for, what you've presented so far, JNA is quite correct about how perils work.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by this this..., but I think your intention is to prevent librarians (characters) from screening for other librarians (characters). This is already how the game works in general. If enemy character A is 6" away, enemy character B is 8", and the third closest enemy unit is 12" away, then you can shoot either A or B at your leisure; they don't screen for one another.

So in regards to the Conclave, perhaps this would clear up the wording a little bit.



So I changed it so that the units gain a new keyword (CONCLAVE LIBRARIAN), in line with what I gather Vigilus does. I also scrapped the subtracting part and simply made it +1 per other Conclave Librarian within 2". My intention with Subtracting was to negate the Perils risk but in hindsight it may be a bit powerful to ignore the dangers of the Warp. So instead, if one Librarian is next to another, the mortal wounds from Perils reduced by 1, but if the caster dies, all other friendly LIbbies, whether Conclave or not, detachment or not, or even from the same chapter or codex, also suffer an immediate perils. Helps balance out the benefits of having a squad of 5 to autopass tests.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Hi all
So I've just gotten back into gaming again and one of the biggest changes since I last played is that Formations are gone entirely and replaced by numerous different detachments.

This sentence makes me unsure whether or not you're familiar with the Vigilus detachments. They basically do what you seem to be aiming for but have a few advantages over your approach. Basically, they work as follows:

* You spend a CP to make a detachment a "special" detachment.
* Certain units within that detachment can be given a special keyword by spending an extra CP on them.
* Taking a special detachment unlocks a relic, warlord trait, and stratagem that can be used by units with the special keyword.
* I think some versions of this give units that you spend CP on a special rule that is constantly active, but don't quote me on that.

By doing things this way, you...
* Don't have to take wonky detachments made up of extremely specific units. You're just encouraged to put your thematically appropriate units in that detachment so that you can pay CP to give them the special keyword. I could, for instance, take a wraith lord (an eldar dreadnaught) in a windrider host detachment (a detachment that buffs speedy bikes), but the wraith lord wouldn't suddenly gain some benefit intended for a bike. However, I also wouldn't have to worry about finding a force org slot in another detachment to fit him into.

* The CP cost scales based on how many units benefit from the special rules. Rather than guesstimating that a Battle Company will have X units worth Y points getting Z points worth of buffs, you just pay 1CP to give a single unit 1CP's worth of benefits.

As I say above I'm not fully up to speed with Vigilus but that's certainly a great way to do it and I will definitely be looking into that. Cheers!

I thought something similar but instead of paying CPs to field the formation with its bonuses, I’d like that fluffy formation would give no bonuses, cost no CPs but will give MORE CPs.

example

Blood Angels formation

1HQ with Jump pack
3x Assault Marine with JP

This formation adds 3 CPs to your army total

Space Wolves and Blood Angels already have a Stratagem that requires 3 psykers. Codex Space Marines armies also get a Stratagem for upgrading a Librarian to a Chief Librarian. Ideally no formations should be required to let you bring a trio of Librarians. I tried making something like what you suggested in a more GW-like format below.

If your army is Battle-forged and includes any Adeptus Astartes Detachments (excluding Auxiliary Support Detachments), you can use the Stratagem below:

3 CP Librarius Conclave
Adeptus Astartes Stratagem

Use this Stratagem before the battle. Select 3-5 LIBRARIAN or RUNE PRIEST models from your army that are part of the same Detachment. Until the end of the battle, those models gain the LIBRARIUS CONCLAVE keyword and the following ability: ‘Conclave: Add 1 to psychic tests and deny the witch tests for each other model than this model with the LIBRARIUS CONCLAVE keyword within 2". In addition, while within 2" of another model with the LIBRARIUS CONCLAVE ability models with this ability can be targeted by shooting attacks as if they did not have the CHARACTER keyword’. You can only use this Stratagem once per battle.

Why would you ever need to negatively impact your own psychic test? That's silly. Automatically passing a psychic test raises the question of how to deny the witch, if you're getting +4 it's almost impossible to stop regardless so I decided not to include that part. I also didn't include anything about ignoring damage from double 1s, if anything it should stop all damage from Perils of the Warp, but I'd test this out first before deciding they need protection from Perils in addition to the huge bonus this can be. The rulebook already says double 1s causes Perils and makes the test fail, give it another read through.

I'm a big proponent of Specialist Detachments, I think they are great design, see if someone at your gamestore doesn't have a copy of Vigilus Defiant you can loan while they are playing or something. That would be how I would go about it. I felt like Necrons were missing some of their flavour and I made a bunch of them you can check out here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/776715.page#10475970

Your link in OP to the thread is also bugged.

The Deer Hunter wrote:
I thought something similar but instead of paying CPs to field the formation with its bonuses, I’d like that fluffy formation would give no bonuses, cost no CPs but will give MORE CPs.

example

Blood Angels formation

1HQ with Jump pack
3x Assault Marine with JP

This formation adds 3 CPs to your army total

That's really just adding more rules to the Chapter Tactic. I don't think it's reasonable to add more words to the Chapter Tactics of SM considering they already have big chapter tactics with lots of text. Blood Angels Assault Marines are already the best on the market, BA don't need another incentive to set their Assault Marines apart from UM Assault Marines, they need to be better in general.

The Deer Hunter wrote:
I thought something similar but instead of paying CPs to field the formation with its bonuses, I’d like that fluffy formation would give no bonuses, cost no CPs but will give MORE CPs.

example

Blood Angels formation

1HQ with Jump pack
3x Assault Marine with JP

This formation adds 3 CPs to your army total

There's a way that this could be done that I wouldn't dislike. The issue is that you risk some army themes missing out on the "formation lottery." Say, for instance, that GW neglected to create a formation that rewarded eldar players for fielding a bunch of windriders, or maybe they included a formation for windriders, but the CP benefits were too low to be considered competitive (kind of like an outrider of windrider bikes now). Well, Saim-Hann players would kind of be left out of luck. They could either not play a thematic, windrider-heavy list, or they could run said list with the understanding that they'll lose more games because of it. Neither of which is really ideal.

Heck, I run Iybraesil (big on howling banshees), so the chances of getting a formation that rewards me for taking a bunch of banshee squads is even dicier.

Wyldhunt wrote:

The Deer Hunter wrote:
I thought something similar but instead of paying CPs to field the formation with its bonuses, I’d like that fluffy formation would give no bonuses, cost no CPs but will give MORE CPs.

example

Blood Angels formation

1HQ with Jump pack
3x Assault Marine with JP

This formation adds 3 CPs to your army total

There's a way that this could be done that I wouldn't dislike. The issue is that you risk some army themes missing out on the "formation lottery." Say, for instance, that GW neglected to create a formation that rewarded eldar players for fielding a bunch of windriders, or maybe they included a formation for windriders, but the CP benefits were too low to be considered competitive (kind of like an outrider of windrider bikes now). Well, Saim-Hann players would kind of be left out of luck. They could either not play a thematic, windrider-heavy list, or they could run said list with the understanding that they'll lose more games because of it. Neither of which is really ideal.

Heck, I run Iybraesil (big on howling banshees), so the chances of getting a formation that rewards me for taking a bunch of banshee squads is even dicier.

Can't unique Stratagems do this is in a more subtle way? Aren't the rules for build-a-Craftworld doing the exact same thing. How much better must Iybraesil Howling Banshees be compared to Iyanden Howling Banshees? IMO they should be different, with different strengths and weaknesses but I don't see it as reasonable that one should have three always-on buffs while the other gets next to nothing, it is way too much. At that point you might as well make a dozen verified balanced lists for each faction, representing 12 different sub-factions in armies of pts intervals of 250 starting from 500 up to 2000 and get rid of pts. Depending on demand the game designers can add a new sub-faction with a different type of build to the line-up for a faction, because nobody is going to run Iyanden Howling Banshees when they could call them something different, get extra CP, better rules and more rules which is problematic if you just want to paint your collection one colour-scheme and you don't want to paint differently coloured rims on your bases and you also would like to use Howling Banshees once in a while.

If you remove all these rules and just balance the units on their own merits then taking the unit should be a reward in and of itself, without a need for free rewards. Can you try to describe what effect a perfectly executed version of this rule would have?

 vict0988 wrote:

If you remove all these rules and just balance the units on their own merits then taking the unit should be a reward in and of itself, without a need for free rewards.

I mean, I pretty much agree with this sentiment. Ideally, I'd like CP generation to divorced from unit selection. Saim-Hann players shouldn't be punished (with CP famine) for wanting to field a thematic army that emphasizes the use of jetbike units. A deathwing army shouldn't feel compelled to squeeze tacs, scouts, and intercessors into the mix.

Can you try to describe what effect a perfectly executed version of this rule would have?

In theory, you could give each codex enough "formations" that fit a wide enough range of themes. Using craftworlders as an example, if they gave me the formations needed to play a thematic Saim-Hann, Iyanden, Biel-Tan, Iybraesil, etc. list but didn't include formations that let you theme your army around vaul support batteries, that could work. It would stink to be the guy who wrote a bunch of cool fluff about how his craftworld favors support batteries in lieu of conventional troops or whatever, but you could theoretically please most of the craftworld player base with that approach.

But you'd basically be gambling on GW remembering to make the theme of whatever army you play playable, and there's still that poor vaul support battery guy out in the cold. Not an ideal solution, but one I could see GW going with down the road.