Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Im sure theres loads of people on here thats done the same, but I found myself constantly thinking about what I would change to the 40k rules and regs that would actually make it BETTER and not so ass-backwards.

"Better" is of course personal opinion, but for me, it felt like it was missing its playful innocence. A sort of "ease of mind" that was once had when you could take an army, and pit it against another, and know that it was going to be a cool fight regardless, with a natural story unfolding before the eyes. It didnt really matter what models you had, you just wanted to see what theyd get up to this time around, whether it was good or bad. It didnt matter, it wasnt about the winning or losing, the mathhammer, the netdecks, the uberlists.

So during all this "spare time", I decided to get most of it down somewhere. Imagine 9th in your head, then go from there. These are the main changes ive got so far. This list is not complete.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No CP/strats
Removed 99% of rerolls
Removed auras
Removed mortal wounds
Removed Primaris (for now at least)
Faction/Chapter abilities + traits revamped
Rejigged unit detachment types/categories
Removed morale phase
Added a "Horror" keyword/mechanic - units/armys with the horror keyword can "scare" opponent models to not fight back in melee (on a dice roll)

Added a "Faction Initiative" rating - the army list with the highest goes first (can get +'s to this using certain HQs/characters/chapters). Is based on a factions aggression/eagerness for combat/tactics
>Faction Ratings:
Necrons/Genestealer Cults = 1
Guard/Sisters/Tau = 2
Marines/Chaos = 3
Eldar/Dark Eldar = 4
Orks/Nids = 5

Added attaching characters to squads, removed "look out sir"

Revised stats/points for all units
>Movement stat = is now the range used for a standard move, advance + charge (these do not need to be rolled for)
>Deep strike ability much rarer. Still 9" but models can take saveable wounds on rolls of 1s
>Added "Combat Initiative" to all units
>Invulns now restricted to Psykers and "forcefield" type stuff (like Iron Halos). FNP's are now common for "veterans/hero" types, such as Elites and HQs.

Restricted "Smite" power to Zoanthropes only.

Revised all weapon stats/types
>shorter ranges overall. 12" (short), 18" (medium), 24" (long)
>less damage overall
>consolidated needless melee options (power weapons), less bloat
>weapon types = melee,grenade,pistol,light arms,heavy
>pistols can uniquely fire after advancing
>grenades are now thrown in the charge phase by both sides (a sort of auto-overwatch)
>removed the -1 to hit for moving with heavy weapons completely
>overwatch now 5+ but rare overall

Added a vehicle-specific penetration (pen table) + wound system (glances). Also includes firing arcs/faces
>Wounding a vehicle = instead of the usual Strength vs Toughness rolloff, count the number needed to match the weapon strength with the vehicle toughness. Rolling a match = glance (can be saved). Rolling over = pen (cannot be saved). Rolling under = no effect. In some cases, you may even be unable to glance certain units with certain weapons. No more glances = dead.
>Vehicles cannot fight in melee (ignored by dreadnought-type units), but does damage by charging
>Units in transports can disembark after a standard move (not an advance). They cannot move further (but can charge)

>Penetration Effects:
1. no effect - luckily goes straight through
2. stunned - cannot advance or charge for a turn
3. systems damaged - all weapons suffer a -1 to hit
4. engines damaged - half all movement
5. immobilised - cannot move at all
6. Blow up - dies


Aircraft units are now temporary additions to an army, usable for x amount (usually 1 or 2) of consecutive turns

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ive added some images to show some of the stuff ive done for specific armies. Im currently going through Nids, but will do others too.

Any thoughts from anyone regarding this would be...cool.

I'm not sure I quite understand from the summary here. Are you trying to rebuild 3e from scratch here?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm not sure I quite understand from the summary here. Are you trying to rebuild 3e from scratch here?

Just to take what works from 9th and sort of meld them with aspects of older editions, to create an edition thats modernly intuitive, but with a more DnD feel overall.

By the time you're pulling the whole card-game (auras, re-rolls, stratagems, etc), dropping Primaris, and giving vehicles their whole alternate damage mechanic back I'm wondering what about 9th you like and want to keep here?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
By the time you're pulling the whole card-game (auras, re-rolls, stratagems, etc), dropping Primaris, and giving vehicles their whole alternate damage mechanic back I'm wondering what about 9th you like and want to keep here?

Its relative simplicity. Its a good base to start with.

"Simplicity" isn't necessarily a thing to strive for, especially when you're then taking things that GW did explicitly to "simplify" the game (standardized statlines) and dumping them.

To my mind "modernly intuitive" all too often means "has completely sacrificed usability so you can print a shorter quickstart document". D&D 5e is easy to start people playing, yes, but the "simplification" means if you want to do anything other than kill people the GM needs to make up rules on the fly, the piles upon piles of wall-of-text abilities/spells are only an improvement on 3e because they don't write as many books, and every character of a given class and level does exactly the same thing as any other character of the same class and level.

5e D&D and 8th/9th 40k have basically the same problem. They set out to make a "simplified" version of the game, but nailed themselves to a set of overly-complicated basic assumptions (class/level, piles of narrowly applicable numbers, and the entire approach to spells in 5e D&D, the phased turn, hit/wound/save/FNP, bad assumptions about scale, and badly-thought-out replacements for blasts and vehicle damage in 8e 40k). If you want to make a simpler game I'd strongly suggest looking at a simpler foundation (Bolt Action/Gates of Antares might be a good starting point). If you want to keep the foundation of 40k I'd strongly suggest you take the system apart and ask yourself what each bit is for.

I'd much rather play a more complicated game where I need all the complicated pieces to actually play than a less complicated game where a lot of the rules bloat is there just to be there.

I feel like you’ll spend half of your game looking at tables and charts.

Your proposals are pretty well in line with what I was envisioning for a "ProHammer" version of 9th.

But one has to ask: after you've lobotomized 9th edition - excised the bloat and grafted in some retro-styled additions - why not just play an older edition?

Honesty, if someone rewrote an older edition (eg 5th) with the concise writing style of the 8th/9th edition rules, I think people would be surprised at how much more clear and simple it would be.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I feel like you’ll spend half of your game looking at tables and charts.

An interesting take, especially as half the game time is currently taken up with rerolls, measuring auras, forgetting most rules (and having to go back again to make it fair), and waiting for people to decide whether to use their CPs or not...constantly.

 RaptorInMotion wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I feel like you’ll spend half of your game looking at tables and charts.

An interesting take, especially as half the game time is currently taken up with rerolls, measuring auras, forgetting most rules (and having to go back again to make it fair), and waiting for people to decide whether to use their CPs or not...constantly.

You're not wrong. But why cut it out just to add it back in?

 Mezmorki wrote:
Your proposals are pretty well in line with what I was envisioning for a "ProHammer" version of 9th.

But one has to ask: after you've lobotomized 9th edition - excised the bloat and grafted in some retro-styled additions - why not just play an older edition?

Honesty, if someone rewrote an older edition (eg 5th) with the concise writing style of the 8th/9th edition rules, I think people would be surprised at how much more clear and simple it would be.

"Just play x Edition instead". If it was truly that easy, I would, and actually, already have. It took hours, there was probably just as many rules as 9th, if not a lot more, and most mechanics were semi-confusing. Of course, with practice I could get used to it. But it is still a flawed edition, otherwise everyone would still be on it.

But yea, if someone can and does do that, great! This thread is really just me putting my ideas down for stuff. I had actually stumbled across your prohammer the other day, and its good to know there are people with similar thoughts who know 40k could be something better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 RaptorInMotion wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I feel like you’ll spend half of your game looking at tables and charts.

An interesting take, especially as half the game time is currently taken up with rerolls, measuring auras, forgetting most rules (and having to go back again to make it fair), and waiting for people to decide whether to use their CPs or not...constantly.

You're not wrong. But why cut it out just to add it back in?

If you take everything out, there'll be nothing left xD

TBH I really appreciate simple rules.
Grimdark Future does a great job of letting you do loads of stuff, but without crazy rules bloat.

 RaptorInMotion wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 RaptorInMotion wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I feel like you’ll spend half of your game looking at tables and charts.

An interesting take, especially as half the game time is currently taken up with rerolls, measuring auras, forgetting most rules (and having to go back again to make it fair), and waiting for people to decide whether to use their CPs or not...constantly.

You're not wrong. But why cut it out just to add it back in?

If you take everything out, there'll be nothing left xD

Then why not start by writing a game that has some substance instead of exchanging BS nonsense for other different bs nonsense and calling it a game?

I like some of your ideas, but i don't think running around trying to plug the dyke as cracks (ie the whole thing) emerge.

I do like game design, but i got tired of chasing the gw release dragon. There's a forum here for game design, you might find success there from a non-gw perspective.

But myself, no i wouldn't spend my precious time on it.

 RaptorInMotion wrote:
No CP/strats

I personally like them, I think it adds an extra layer to gameplay, you complained in another post about you not liking when people think about whether or not to use a Stratagem, but I think it is a sign of great strategic gameplay when people have to think about what they want to do.

Removed 99% of rerolls

Good.

Removed auras Added attaching characters to squads, removed "look out sir"

Could work if you have no way to juggle wounds, you should know that wound juggling was a nightmare though and you will need to have a process for what happens when a wounded character enters a wounded unit, unless characters can only join units at the start of the game, which wouldn't be a terrible option, but something to consider.

Removed mortal wounds

Make sure not to add any save re-rolls or 2+ invulnerable saves to your game.

Removed Primaris (for now at least)

You probably won't finish this so if this is you just hating on Primaris then that is fine, but if you wanted to play with people then I think you should be more accomodating.

Faction/Chapter abilities + traits revamped
Rejigged unit detachment types/categories

I am interested to see/read the changes.

Removed morale phase
Added a "Horror" keyword/mechanic - units/armys with the horror keyword can "scare" opponent models to not fight back in melee (on a dice roll)

Strange choice, I would say Necrons should not get scared.

Added a "Faction Initiative" rating

That is a nightmare for balance purposes unless you nail down the benefit of going first/second perfectly or give the factions that are at a disadvantage mission-wise (whether your missions reward going first or second) some kind of buff.

Revised stats/points for all units

How many people are realistically going to play only this game and not regular 40k? The people that play both will be confused, I'm speaking from experience.

>Movement stat = is now the range used for ... charge (these do not need to be rolled for)

Problematic in a game where everyone can measure at any time, it allows gunlines to stay perfectly out of charge range with no chance of them getting got. It is also a buff to fast melee units and a nerf to other melee units.

Restricted "Smite" power to Zoanthropes only.

Bad idea, you will have to come up with a dozen variations of Smite for every psychic faction like in 7th.

>consolidated needless melee options (power weapons), less bloat

Other than the bloat it also simplifies balancing, nobody has to worry about whether they need power axes for Micantes and power mauls for 9th.

>removed the -1 to hit for moving with heavy weapons completely

That seems like a terrible idea, what is the point of a weapon being heavy then? The increased firepower at the cost of mobility is their whole thing.

Added a vehicle-specific penetration (pen table) + wound system (glances). Also includes firing arcs/faces
>Wounding a vehicle = instead of the usual Strength vs Toughness rolloff, count the number needed to match the weapon strength with the vehicle toughness. Rolling a match = glance (can be saved). Rolling over = pen (cannot be saved). Rolling under = no effect. In some cases, you may even be unable to glance certain units with certain weapons. No more glances = dead.

>Penetration Effects:
1. no effect - luckily goes straight through
2. stunned - cannot advance or charge for a turn
3. systems damaged - all weapons suffer a -1 to hit
4. engines damaged - half all movement
5. immobilised - cannot move at all
6. Blow up - dies

Bloat that I am not interested in, if you were going to bring anything back about vehicles it should be some sort of simplified facing system to add more depth to positioning.

>Units in transports can disembark after a standard move (not an advance). They cannot move further (but can charge)

Oh lord, every vehicle is an assault vehicle. You have longer charge ranges from inside vehicles than medium-range guns. This seems like an awful idea.

Good luck with the project.