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I'm thinking of getting into WH40K. There's a big thread in the 40K Discussion form ("Is it worth it?") where we discussed this and in the end I think I'd prefer to actually start with an older edition, not 9th edition.

In that vein, I'd also like to be able to use the older 28mm scale models with 25mm bases. Not the gigantic new ones.

I tried to find some on eBay but wasnt quite sure what to search for. I got mostly results from 9e.

While I'm here ... is there any good place I can get the various templates used for the game? I guess eBay as well, but can you print out and make your own?

Most models that are played now can be used in older editions unless they weren't released then. Best bet is to pick up an old codex for the edition you want to play to see what is available to you and go from there. 5th edition for instance is fairly expansive as there were rules but no models, so kitbashing was a big thing. From 6th onwards that disappears.

eBay, Dakka Swap Shop and Facebook Marketplace are all avenues for getting second hand models.

My advice for templates goes with the above, find out what edition you're playing and go from there.

PieInTheSky wrote:
While I'm here ... is there any good place I can get the various templates used for the game? I guess eBay as well, but can you print out and make your own?

GW still sell them as, as they're used in AT, Necromunda, 30k...

PieInTheSky wrote:
I'm thinking of getting into WH40K. There's a big thread in the 40K Discussion form ("Is it worth it?") where we discussed this and in the end I think I'd prefer to actually start with an older edition, not 9th edition.

In that vein, I'd also like to be able to use the older 28mm scale models with 25mm bases. Not the gigantic new ones.

I tried to find some on eBay but wasnt quite sure what to search for. I got mostly results from 9e.

While I'm here ... is there any good place I can get the various templates used for the game? I guess eBay as well, but can you print out and make your own?

It depends entirely on what army you're looking for, but generally a good place to start is with your army codex. A brief google should be able to tell you which edition had which cover(the cover art for the codexes often changes between editions). Between say, 3rd to 6th edition, a lot of armies were stuck with one codex for multiple editions. Orks for example had their 4th edition codex all the way until the 7th ed one was released.

From there, using the codex, you'll be able to put together an army for a certain points value, and then cross-reference which units you'll need. A good many of these will still be current and available from the Games Workshop website or your online discounter of choice. GW should also sell packs of 25mm bases(and a lot of other companies do too).

You can also go to ebay and do a search, for example "OOP space marine" and see what comes up. You'll see a lot of listings for minis that are now out of print and no longer available. Some of these will be loose bits, others may still be NIB(new in blister/box). Anything NIB tends to command a bit of a premium unless you get really lucky, because it means you generally don't have to mess around trying to repair, strip, repaint, etc etc.

As far as "the gigantic new ones", I assume you're talking about Primaris marines. Some newer releases from GW have gone up a bit in scale, but at the same time keep in mind that you're playing a miniature wargame and a lot of things are necessarily a bit abstracted and that "true" 28mm scale is very hard to judge.

The packaging for each edition or couple of editions also changes, so sometimes you'll be able to tell what edition an older box of minis is from by the package design. Again, keep in mind that many, many of the miniatures currently available from GW are still perfectly usable in older editions and in fact the very same kit. Going back to orks - the current ork boyz box is still the same miniature that was released about 20 years ago, except that ork boyz now come in boxes of 10 - many editions ago they were in boxes of 16.

Hello. I'm a bit surprised by the mention of older / better 28mm scales miniatures. Apart from the primaris SM, and some recent CSM kits, GW's scale has been pretty good I think.
OK they do want their marines to look badass, and represent their super-human condition. Super-human mean taller. But I'm OK with that.
It is just the fact that older marines have looked too small for ages.

Let me tell you about the size evolution of regular humans (guardsmen). I have just checked the sizes, so please don't say I'm saying BS.
1-st edition, I happen to have only one miniature (1989), which is really small, 25mm, bowed. So I'm assuming 28mm scale. Everything on it looks smaller than current ranges.
2-nd edition (1994) imperial guardsmen that I have are between 29-31 mm tall (Valhallan , old Cadian).
3-rd edition Armageddon steel legion (1999) do feel a bit smaller, at 26-28mm, but considering most of them are leaning or bowing. The ones that are straight are 30mm though.
4-th 5-th edition Cadians (2003-2008) are also about 30-31mm tall.
The most recent range of imperial guardsmen (inexplicably discontinued), the Vostroyans (2005) are a bit taller, but they are ~32 mm if you discount their massive fur hats.

So for the regular humans, there has been little size creep, with a 30-32 mm scale set very early in the development.

I cannot comment so accurately about the Sisters of Battle, which is the most recent human range (2019). But from the look of GW's pictures, they look just a bit taller than their base sizes (32mm) on screen .
Nothing groundbreaking.

You might find Lexicanum a great help as they show most of the models by edition for each army. It's not complete, but its the greatest single resource that I'm aware of which provides clear photos for each model they list and it does list the vast majority

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Miniatures:_Space_Marines

I live near London, ON, and there's a Facebook Group called "London Warhammer Loadout" and it's a great place to find minis. I've picked up 90% of my Chaos force in old models through that. There's probably a similar group in your part of the world.

From there, Ebay or Kijiji (Mostly Canadian site) are also good options. Word of mouth through your local game store could be another good idea.

I'd hit the internet social media platforms first. Wide net, lots of users. Specify you're looking for a certain era / 5th edition compatible sort of thing.

Troll trader is decent for old models. It's UK based so not sure what the sketch would be for shipping to Sweden.

there's an 'oldhammer' facebook group where you can get loads of old minis.
Also 'Stuff of Legends' has the old catalogues online: http://www.solegends.com/citadel/index.htm

If these are too old, then try the 'middlehammer' fb group.

beast_gts wrote:

PieInTheSky wrote:
While I'm here ... is there any good place I can get the various templates used for the game? I guess eBay as well, but can you print out and make your own?

GW still sell them as, as they're used in AT, Necromunda, 30k...

Unless you're looking for 2nd edition, which used different templates.

They're fairly easy to make, though, as they're mostly just different sized circles of cardboard.

 Mr. Grey wrote:
As far as "the gigantic new ones", I assume you're talking about Primaris marines. Some newer releases from GW have gone up a bit in scale, but at the same time keep in mind that you're playing a miniature wargame and a lot of things are necessarily a bit abstracted and that "true" 28mm scale is very hard to judge.

It's not a case of misjudging 28mm scale, they're intentionally much bigger. A couple of years ago GW scaled everything up to 32mm scale. If you put one of the new miniatures next to an older one, the new ones look like ogres. They're enormous! Which is really silly when you're playing a wargame where table space is at a premium because it scales up the entire game. They did the same with bloodbowl, and of course all the pitches had to get bigger too to accomodate the larger bases.

I suspect there were multiple reasonings behind this, first, they use more paint, second, it obsoletes all the older 28mm armies and third they can pretend they are "easier to paint", which is patently not true. They're harder to paint as they contain more fiddly detail and take longer due to their size.

In any case, as you maybe able to tell, I really dislike that move by GW and don't want to support it. So I'd rather player 5th edition or whatever and use old school miniatures, if I can find them.

PieInTheSky wrote:

I suspect there were multiple reasonings behind this, first, they use more paint, second, it obsoletes all the older 28mm armies and third they can pretend they are "easier to paint", which is patently not true. They're harder to paint as they contain more fiddly detail and take longer due to their size.

Honestly, while it's fun to assume malicious intent, the most likely reason for the size increase is simply that their current design philosophy involves cramming as much detail as possible onto every available surface, and larger models make that easier to produce. Larger models also allow for slimmer (by comparison) parts in plastic, allowing for more realistic proportions.... Some of the models they're making these days would be incredibly flimsy in plastic at the scale they were using in the '90s.

Doesn't make it any less irritating for those of us with old collections that don't fit with the modern models, of course.

 insaniak wrote:

PieInTheSky wrote:

I suspect there were multiple reasonings behind this, first, they use more paint, second, it obsoletes all the older 28mm armies and third they can pretend they are "easier to paint", which is patently not true. They're harder to paint as they contain more fiddly detail and take longer due to their size.

Honestly, while it's fun to assume malicious intent, the most likely reason for the size increase is simply that their current design philosophy involves cramming as much detail as possible onto every available surface, and larger models make that easier to produce. Larger models also allow for slimmer (by comparison) parts in plastic, allowing for more realistic proportions.... Some of the models they're making these days would be incredibly flimsy in plastic at the scale they were using in the '90s.

Doesn't make it any less irritating for those of us with old collections that don't fit with the modern models, of course.

Well ... I'm not sure if "malicious" is the right word. But I absolutely believe the primary driving force behind the re-scale was to make as much money as possible. You can't really even blame them, that's what companies do.

But even then, my main problem with the new models is not what motivated them to do it. My main problems are 1) They take longer to paint to a nice standard; 2) They take up too much room when space is already at a premium.

Those two things to me are far more important than, "realistic proportions" (and who are we kidding on that note anyway?).

I don't have an existing army, so it's no skin off my back personally that they effectively made all the old miniatures obsolete (at least for new versions of the game). Although I do think it's a bit of a spit-in-the-eye to all those gamers that were loyal to GW and spent potentially thousands of dollars on that stuff thinking it would stay relevant for their entire hobby gaming lifetime.

Cramming in details to miniatures is a bad thing, not a good thing. At least for regular troops. You can't even see most of it unless you're looking at the model from half a foot away under photographic-quality lighting and it makes them so much more time consuming to paint.

... and while I'm ranting, I absolutely think they persist with their silly paint-pot designs because it wastes as much paint as possible. The pots with dropper bottles that every other company uses last for years and are so much more convenient as a bonus.

Arguably the super-old-scool 28mm (or even 25mm back then maybe?) one has more realistic proportions anyway, and you can still make them look great, and in half the time too.

If you're comparing back to Rogue Trader era beakies, I don't know what to tell you. There's been a lot of water under the bridge since then...

Crispy78 wrote:
If you're comparing back to Rogue Trader era beakies, I don't know what to tell you. There's been a lot of water under the bridge since then...

You don't have to go back that far. In fact, you don't have to go back far at all. When did the gigantic miniatures become part of WH40K? I don't know I'm not really part of that scene, but it seems that I only started noticing them in GW store windows five or six years ago. So what? 7th or 8th edition?

PieInTheSky wrote:

It's not a case of misjudging 28mm scale, they're intentionally much bigger. A couple of years ago GW scaled everything up to 32mm scale. If you put one of the new miniatures next to an older one, the new ones look like ogres. They're enormous! Which is really silly when you're playing a wargame where table space is at a premium because it scales up the entire game. They did the same with bloodbowl, and of course all the pitches had to get bigger too to accomodate the larger bases.

I suspect there were multiple reasonings behind this, first, they use more paint, second, it obsoletes all the older 28mm armies and third they can pretend they are "easier to paint", which is patently not true. They're harder to paint as they contain more fiddly detail and take longer due to their size.

In any case, as you maybe able to tell, I really dislike that move by GW and don't want to support it. So I'd rather player 5th edition or whatever and use old school miniatures, if I can find them.

Ok, so they're a little big bigger. I've given you lots of advice on finding older miniatures, what's the problem? If you want to play 5th edition with a bunch of space marines on 25mm bases, go browse the GW space marine range and buy any of the existing marine kits that have been around for longer than 6 years(and this is a LOT of them, btw). The same principle applies to any of the other factions that existed back then.

Making miniatures bigger does not "obsolete all the older 28mm armies", especially since GW still produces dozens of kits that are least 10 years old if not even older. If Games Workshop were to suddenly recall all existing miniatures from store shelves everywhere, and then bring out hundreds of new kits at a bigger scale to replace them, THEN maybe you'd have a point.

As for the argument that bigger minis waste more paint(intentionally)... I don't know what to tell you. Thin down your paints? I have a core of maybe 2-4 specific colors that I go through more quickly than the rest. Most of my paint collection lasts literally years before I need to buy more. I can begrudge GW $5 for a new pot of Leadbelcher every three years.

 Mr. Grey wrote:

PieInTheSky wrote:

It's not a case of misjudging 28mm scale, they're intentionally much bigger. A couple of years ago GW scaled everything up to 32mm scale. If you put one of the new miniatures next to an older one, the new ones look like ogres. They're enormous! Which is really silly when you're playing a wargame where table space is at a premium because it scales up the entire game. They did the same with bloodbowl, and of course all the pitches had to get bigger too to accomodate the larger bases.

I suspect there were multiple reasonings behind this, first, they use more paint, second, it obsoletes all the older 28mm armies and third they can pretend they are "easier to paint", which is patently not true. They're harder to paint as they contain more fiddly detail and take longer due to their size.

In any case, as you maybe able to tell, I really dislike that move by GW and don't want to support it. So I'd rather player 5th edition or whatever and use old school miniatures, if I can find them.

Ok, so they're a little big bigger. I've given you lots of advice on finding older miniatures, what's the problem? If you want to play 5th edition with a bunch of space marines on 25mm bases, go browse the GW space marine range and buy any of the existing marine kits that have been around for longer than 6 years(and this is a LOT of them, btw). The same principle applies to any of the other factions that existed back then.

Making miniatures bigger does not "obsolete all the older 28mm armies", especially since GW still produces dozens of kits that are least 10 years old if not even older. If Games Workshop were to suddenly recall all existing miniatures from store shelves everywhere, and then bring out hundreds of new kits at a bigger scale to replace them, THEN maybe you'd have a point.

As for the argument that bigger minis waste more paint(intentionally)... I don't know what to tell you. Thin down your paints? I have a core of maybe 2-4 specific colors that I go through more quickly than the rest. Most of my paint collection lasts literally years before I need to buy more. I can begrudge GW $5 for a new pot of Leadbelcher every three years.

A little bit?



Anyway ... I do appreciate your help. Sorry to whinge, it's just a pet hate of mine and I'm easily triggered by it. Entirely my own problem.

So ... I can actually buy the 25mm-based minis from GW? Really? I can't seem to find them on the website... but then again I don't really know where to look.

Once again, I do appreciate the help and advice, sorry to come across like a whiner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Hello. I'm a bit surprised by the mention of older / better 28mm scales miniatures. Apart from the primaris SM, and some recent CSM kits, GW's scale has been pretty good I think.
OK they do want their marines to look badass, and represent their super-human condition. Super-human mean taller. But I'm OK with that.
It is just the fact that older marines have looked too small for ages.

Let me tell you about the size evolution of regular humans (guardsmen). I have just checked the sizes, so please don't say I'm saying BS.
1-st edition, I happen to have only one miniature (1989), which is really small, 25mm, bowed. So I'm assuming 28mm scale. Everything on it looks smaller than current ranges.
2-nd edition (1994) imperial guardsmen that I have are between 29-31 mm tall (Valhallan , old Cadian).
3-rd edition Armageddon steel legion (1999) do feel a bit smaller, at 26-28mm, but considering most of them are leaning or bowing. The ones that are straight are 30mm though.
4-th 5-th edition Cadians (2003-2008) are also about 30-31mm tall.
The most recent range of imperial guardsmen (inexplicably discontinued), the Vostroyans (2005) are a bit taller, but they are ~32 mm if you discount their massive fur hats.

So for the regular humans, there has been little size creep, with a 30-32 mm scale set very early in the development.

I cannot comment so accurately about the Sisters of Battle, which is the most recent human range (2019). But from the look of GW's pictures, they look just a bit taller than their base sizes (32mm) on screen .
Nothing groundbreaking.

I'm not saying you BSing, I just think your idea of a big difference is different to mine. The base alone ... that's 7mm difference. That reduces the distance between two models by more than half an inch, which is significant if the rules are written for one scale over the other. It's the same in blood bowl and the difference is huge enough that the new models look like ogres compared to the old models. In fact I have some original ogre BB models that are about the same size as human blitzers now. Besides, all you have to do is see the image spoilered above to see for yourself the difference. And it's not just space marines, it's the entire range, and maybe even especially the orcs. I don't know about guardsmen, but I assume they're all on 32mm bases now?

Anyway ... I don't want to whinge about that. It is pertinent to the topic because it's the reason I want the old ones, but each to their own. I'm not judging anyone for preferring the big models.

Isn't the bigger Marneus Calgar in the picture above after he's gone through the Primaris process, so is intentionally bigger?

Crispy78 wrote:
Isn't the bigger Marneus Calgar in the picture above after he's gone through the Primaris process, so is intentionally bigger?

Yes. It also looks like he's on a 40mm base.

@OP - base size has a tendency to be all over the place, depending on army/unit. Space marines now do come with 32mm bases as standard, but that said - there are a lot of places to get the old 25mm bases. Games Workshop even sells a 100-pack of 25mm bases:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/100-x-25mm-base

I think Kromlech and Warlord Games both sell bases as well, it's just a matter of getting a lot for your minis.

Each unit's entry on the GW site should tell you what bases it comes with, and again if you prefer an older edition and want all your minis on 25mm, that's totally cool.

 Mr. Grey wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
Isn't the bigger Marneus Calgar in the picture above after he's gone through the Primaris process, so is intentionally bigger?

Yes. It also looks like he's on a 40mm base.

@OP - base size has a tendency to be all over the place, depending on army/unit. Space marines now do come with 32mm bases as standard, but that said - there are a lot of places to get the old 25mm bases. Games Workshop even sells a 100-pack of 25mm bases:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/100-x-25mm-base

I think Kromlech and Warlord Games both sell bases as well, it's just a matter of getting a lot for your minis.

Each unit's entry on the GW site should tell you what bases it comes with, and again if you prefer an older edition and want all your minis on 25mm, that's totally cool.

If it were true that it was just the space marines that were intentionally super-sized, then I would be cool with it, it would make sense. But all the evidence points to the opposite unfortunately. There are no space marines in blood-bowl and they are all enormous now too (in line with 40K and AOS). The dwarfs in blood bowl are now bigger than the humans in the first editions and the humans look like ogres. The orcs in 40K have certainly ballooned in recent times and they are not super-genetic freaks.



It really appears to just be something they're doing across the entire line. Maybe those Primaris marines have been made even bigger on top of that.

I don't have a problem getting 25mm bases. Thankfully there's loads of different miniature manufacturers that still make those. I have stacks of them from all different companies. But if the models feet are hanging off the edges then it's not really worth the trouble, and what would be the point anyway? I'd rather either get a smaller model or just bite the bullet and size up to 32mm if that's the way gak is going for better or worse I might need to just suck it up.



.

The Cadian kit for Imperial Guard is still the same kit from 15(?) however many years ago. If size of the miniatures themselves is your big issue, you really need to get an older codex for each army that you'd like to build and cross-reference the unit entries in that codex with the product listing on the GW site. I'm not an expert on every faction by any means, but I can tell you that ork boyz, Cadians, and Eldar Guardians at least are all very, very old kits. The basic Space Marine tactical squad got redone a while back - five years ago maybe? - so that the bolters are now attached to the fist instead of separate. I can't say if that came with a minor size increase or not.

EDIT: just saw your comment about the model's feet hanging off the edge of the 25mm bases. I can tell you for sure that with ork boyz this is definitely an issue. And that's a 20 year old kit.

IMO, 32mm bases are pretty awesome, and almost everything looks better on a bigger base. I always found 25mm awkward for certain things.

 Mr. Grey wrote:
The Cadian kit for Imperial Guard is still the same kit from 15(?) however many years ago. If size of the miniatures themselves is your big issue, you really need to get an older codex for each army that you'd like to build and cross-reference the unit entries in that codex with the product listing on the GW site. I'm not an expert on every faction by any means, but I can tell you that ork boyz, Cadians, and Eldar Guardians at least are all very, very old kits. The basic Space Marine tactical squad got redone a while back - five years ago maybe? - so that the bolters are now attached to the fist instead of separate. I can't say if that came with a minor size increase or not.

EDIT: just saw your comment about the model's feet hanging off the edge of the 25mm bases. I can tell you for sure that with ork boyz this is definitely an issue. And that's a 20 year old kit.

IMO, 32mm bases are pretty awesome, and almost everything looks better on a bigger base. I always found 25mm awkward for certain things.

Yes, well maybe I just have to suck it up. The space marines look much cooler too, I just wish they were not so huge. But you cant win 'em all.

The problem is really in getting my hands on these old models. I've been looking but just can't really seem to find them consistently. But on the other hand, I think I prefer the 5th edition rules. I've read through the 9th edition and I'm halfway through the 5th (the one recommended to me most) and the rules just seem better. But on the other, other hand, what's the point of playing a game that nobody else does? On the other, other, other hand, I could just have it for myself with a few small armies. On the other, other, other, other hand ... why fight against the flow? If the future is 32mm gigantosaurus models maybe I should quit the bitchin' and get on board the GW choo choo train?

I dunno. I'm very confused. I think I might go to bed and sleep on it for the fifth night in a row (I planned to make a decision and buy something a week ago).

Or maybe I'll just forget the whole 40K thing and buy an airbrush instead.