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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




While I understand that one of the tenets of worshipping Khorne is to spill blood and create carnage in the short term scheme of things, I don't fully understand their rationale in the long run. Prolonged in-fighting would cause them to break apart and not fully realize their potential for maximum bloodletting. If you forego killing the person next to you, the more ranks you have. The more ranks you have, the more you can do. Sure, Khorne would be displeased at the low levels of death at the beginning, but at the end of the game, you've probably ended up collecting more skulls and spilled more blood, so shouldn't Khorne be pleased more-so? Would a Khorne warband or cult look at the logical side of things and stall in-fighting so that they could kill more?
   
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There isn't rational thinking, that's kind of the idea behind it. It doesn't matter where where blood flows from or who's skull sits on Khornes throne, there will always be more devotees who will kill or be kill in Khorne's name.
   
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Ottawa, ON

Khorne is a big believer in any form of Darwinism. If you die, then you were obviously too weak and the group is better off without you.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

 Mr Nobody wrote:
Khorne is a big believer in any form of Darwinism. If you die, then you were obviously too weak and the group is better off without you.


That not what Darwinism or that phrase means.

As for reasonable Khorne worshippers, there's plenty. They're not all mindless bezerkers, otherwise the Blood Pact and Sons of Sek would never have come about.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 15:56:47


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 Gert wrote:
There isn't rational thinking, that's kind of the idea behind it.

Yup, in one of old CSM codex stories there is even a Khorne champion who runs out of stuff to kill, stops, and hacks his own head off...

 Platuan4th wrote:
As for reasonable Khorne worshippers, there's plenty. They're not all mindless bezerkers, otherwise the Blood Pact and Sons of Sek would never have come about.

These are inventions of Abnett, though. Someone who created literal magic language stronger than Chaos gods (and light IG infantry stabbing chaos marines and even their dreadnought to death with bayonets). So, I'd be careful with treating this as canon. Plus, seeing Sek utilized psykers and psychological warfare, he can't be that Khornate to begin with.
   
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The Blood Pact are without a doubt very militant and capable soldiers but they still can and will use similar tactics to common Khorne forces (i.e. endless wave assaults). They are also noted as a very singular entity. The vast majority of Chaos forces fought during the Sabbat Worlds Crusade were normal Cults and it was only after the ascension of Urlock Gaur that the Pact gained dominance.
   
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Hmm, there have to be some more reasonable followers though, no? Otherwize they wouldn't exist for long. I mean, we know that Kharn gets resurrected, but that can't be true for the whole World Eaters Legion, and if they aren't revived all the time - how would they exist after 10K years if they were only on mindless slaughter all the time?
Also, Renegades, no matter if Marines or Guard will probably just enjoy the rage of battle at first, and not go full on skull collecting after a week.
These are just my thoughts with little knowledge about Khorne. We all know 40K doesn't want to make sense usually, but it has to be somewhat believable, no? There are probably recruitment worlds for Khorne in the Eye, where people don't kill each other all the time but keep some kind of order?
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Khorne followers are a bit like Orks - they love blood and combat; however even within all that they still have enough sanity to organise and conduct major war campaigns.

What we see in a lot of lore is battles and that skews things a bit. Those blood crazed warriors are perhaps only as fevered when on the battlefield itself. Outside of such an environment they might well have periods of being more passive.


Otherwise, as you say, Khorne would simply burn itself out every time its followers arose.

There is an element of that though, Khorne warriors isolated or otherwise unable to go on major campaigns can end up falling apart to internal in-fighting. As they kill and kill and fight each other; however that process tends to result in the most powerful surviving and gaining more rewards from the Dark Gods. Thus allowing them to persist and recover and improve over time evne though normally constant fighting would debilitate a person.





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The World Eaters do have moments of lucidity at which point they'd go to someone like Fabius Bile to get some super quick replacements. You've got to remember as well that CSM aren't picky where their reinforcements come from. A Khorne Warband featured in the Iron Warriors Omnibus is made up of OG World Eaters and turncoats from all over the place, including a Scythes of the Emperor Marine.
As for mortal forces, Cults spring up all over the place and die out just as fast.
   
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It is also worth noting that corruption is a process, not an on-off switch. People don't go from untainted to raging psychopath immediately, they tread a long path of increasing degeneration and insanity. You can see this in CSM. The basic Marines are still effective, rational troops for the most part. They may have begun down the path of worshipping Khorne specifically and carry a Mark of Khorne, but that only increases their rage and bloodlust somewhat.

The Berzerkers, however, are advanced devotees that are further down the rabbit hole of Khornate power, and as such are much more violent and insane. Kharn is off the deep end, and the fact his moniker is "the betrayer" suggests his level of fratricide is unusual even for followers of Khorne.

Chaos is inherently irrational, hence the name, so any person becoming too devoted and exalted in the view of one of the gods does go insane. It is most obvious in Khorne.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 18:15:19


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 Overread wrote:
Otherwise, as you say, Khorne would simply burn itself out every time its followers arose.



That's usually what happens to Khorne worshipers and invasion too. That's how the first battle of Armageddon ended.

The Chaos Gods are, by their nature, rather self-defeating. The more devoted you are to the Chaos Gods the more crazy you are and the least likely you are to perform as a warlord or as a soldier. Kharn, the greatest champion of Khorne in 40K, is a complete madman with bouts of lucidity who is known as "The betrayer" because he is as likely to massacre his allies as he is to massacres his enemies. The more taken you are in worship to Khorne, the more savage, violent and demented you become. Sure, this makes for Khorne "grand plan" to be doomed to failure after a while for you will always lack some bloodbath potential in realspace, but Khorne himself isn't from realspace and he can't think in terms of realspace. If the Gods of Chaos are impossible to comprehend by mortal minds and the laws of the Warp mysterious, illogical and non-sensical; the opposite is also completely true. Ironically the greatest and most "efficient" champions of Khorne are those who worship him, but aren't completely overtaken by his power or zealots of his creed. A "cafeteria" or "moderate" Khorne cultist is far more dangerous in the medium and long term than a complete fundamentalist rabid zealot of Khorn or worst, a daemon possessed one.
   
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Khorn will burn itself out if there's nothing else to fight yes. Just like Orks who will fall to in-fighting.

From my observations with Khorne it kind of happens when they run out of things to fight and to promote them to expansion. Ergo when they enter a decadent phase. However its not totally mindless. At least in AoS where we see this a few times at the start of the setting (as at the start Chaos had basically won); where there's Khorne civilizations built around combat arenas. It's not just pure mindless slaughter, but slaughter with some degree of purpose. The arena's fuelling their bloodlust without all having to fight.

Khorne maintains a sense of twisted honour and whilst Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows in terms of which side wins; Khorne does seem to show some desire that battles have meaning. That there's a goal; that there's improvement not just mindless barbaric behaviour. At least at the controlling end - there's always the berserk and barbaric who are perhaps just too twisted the wrong way - who are mindless killing machines.



In short whlist it can burn itself out; it will have sensible elements to it.
We see the same with Orks. They can be content to just fight each other, however there's always a core that grow who see a "bigger picture". A greater battle in the skies and who set their sights beyond in-fighting.

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 Haighus wrote:

Chaos is inherently irrational, hence the name, so any person becoming too devoted and exalted in the view of one of the gods does go insane. It is most obvious in Khorne.


Tzeench and Nurgle are chaos gods and they and their followers have things pretty well under control. Typhus and Mortarion and such are evil, but they're hardly insane. That's not even mentioning Chaos Undivided guys like Purterabo.

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 Flipsiders wrote:
Tzeench and Nurgle are chaos gods and they and their followers have things pretty well under control. Typhus and Mortarion and such are evil, but they're hardly insane. That's not even mentioning Chaos Undivided guys like Purterabo.


Technically Tzeentch worshippers devolve into paranoia and plan against themselves as they get mad with the possible futures and the constant stream of lies and half truth that Tzeentch also incarnate. Many chase shadows forever. Those of Nurgle become basically immovable and stagnant as they grow more disease turning more into some sort of self phagocyting plants and disease than actual people with agenda and capacity for change and initiative.

The Gods of Chaos in 40K were never meant to be able to win anything. Just like the Imperium, they are meant to wage war forever with no possibility of triumph.
   
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It's important to note that the Chaos Gods of 40K, far as we can tell, want perpetual war. The constant supply of emotions and tormented souls for them to feast upon. Only Abbadon wants actual victory and conquest over the Imperium.

We also have to remember that whilst the forces of Mankind and other races fight things out, the Chaos Gods themselves are basically untouched. Nothing in the Galaxy really threatens or harms them. They can take massive losses and not lose. Theirs is a game billions of years in the making for which the battlefields of the 41st millennium are bit a blip



In contrast the Chaos Gods of the Mortal Realms and Old World - do actually want a win. They do want to consume the world for its magic, however they are still Gods of Chaos and they still operate in an insane and mad way fighting each other as much as anything else. So they can still undo their own agenda. Even all the might of the Realms can only cage one of the gods and that's proving to be hard to maintain.

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The idea that rationality and strategy aswell as tactics don't apply to khorne has to do with the flanderisation.
Just as much as khorne hating all psykers

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epronovost wrote:
 Flipsiders wrote:
Tzeench and Nurgle are chaos gods and they and their followers have things pretty well under control. Typhus and Mortarion and such are evil, but they're hardly insane. That's not even mentioning Chaos Undivided guys like Purterabo.


Technically Tzeentch worshippers devolve into paranoia and plan against themselves as they get mad with the possible futures and the constant stream of lies and half truth that Tzeentch also incarnate. Many chase shadows forever. Those of Nurgle become basically immovable and stagnant as they grow more disease turning more into some sort of self phagocyting plants and disease than actual people with agenda and capacity for change and initiative.

The Gods of Chaos in 40K were never meant to be able to win anything. Just like the Imperium, they are meant to wage war forever with no possibility of triumph.


From my understanding, some followers of Tzeench, such as Ahriman, maintain near-perfect lucidity despite their affiliations. And as for Nurgle, what you described isn't insanity at all. It's entropic, yes (which is obviously an aspect of chaos), but it doesn't correlate with any sort of irrational decision.

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 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

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Not Online!!! wrote:
The idea that rationality and strategy aswell as tactics don't apply to khorne has to do with the flanderisation.
Just as much as khorne hating all psykers


It's also because a lot of the lore and stories focuses on battles and war events. Especially for those who casually connect with the hobby and might not read many BL books. So a lot of what they read is crazed warriors on the battlefield with less focus on the pre and post war moments in the setting. So they get a very one dimensional view of the setting because most of what is casually accessible in the lore is one dimensional and focuses on the war because its built around the wargame aspect.

Far fewer actually read into the lore and background of the setting at a deeper level - ergo buy and read BL books. Heck myself I only recently started reading them a few years back.

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Well, Khorne hating magic was much more of a Fantasy thing, with Khorne and Tzeentch the bigger rivals. Originally, that was brought over to 40k but I believe it's sort of disappeared away in universe.

Khorne is synonymous with rage and brutality. The hunger of battle, the epitome of bloodlust. War is a sport and skulls are the trophies etc. Like 80% of the time that is what Khorne is about. Its all very straightforward and to the point. There's no scheming but there's still strategy.

I mean let's say we want a big old pile of skulls from this here Imperial planet for our lovely blood soaked diety. Now do we all charge en masse into the giant guns defending it and die or do we flank around the side with our veterans while some nerdy weak cultists charge screaming into the guns and die?

That's strategy. Blood still flows. Khorne is the best. Viva la Khornelution.

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Khorne never used to be just blood and guts, you could have a world of humans, or other species, who’s society was structured around the military and strict martial prowess.

The Spartans could have been khorne worshipers. Many worshipers of chaos don’t know the words khorne, slaneesh etc, they invent their own name for their gods

It’s a more modern thing that being a khorne worshiper meant you just wanted to spill blood. Which is a shame because it hamstrings any deep portrayal of khorne worship.

if khorne was such psychopathic religion their wouldn’t be any worshipers cos they’d kill each other.
   
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 Olthannon wrote:
Well, Khorne hating magic was much more of a Fantasy thing, with Khorne and Tzeentch the bigger rivals. Originally, that was brought over to 40k but I believe it's sort of disappeared away in universe.

Khorne is synonymous with rage and brutality. The hunger of battle, the epitome of bloodlust. War is a sport and skulls are the trophies etc. Like 80% of the time that is what Khorne is about. Its all very straightforward and to the point. There's no scheming but there's still strategy.

I mean let's say we want a big old pile of skulls from this here Imperial planet for our lovely blood soaked diety. Now do we all charge en masse into the giant guns defending it and die or do we flank around the side with our veterans while some nerdy weak cultists charge screaming into the guns and die?

That's strategy. Blood still flows. Khorne is the best. Viva la Khornelution.


i think the hate of magic was a outgrowth of the hate for all ranged options, in a general hate for anything that wasnt straight up, face to face combat where the strongest wins, which plays into a hate of the master of both magic and dirty tricks, Tzeentch. Since these days they give the change vs stagantion angle much more weight he gets paired against Slanessh more, but of coruse everyone hates everyone.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

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World Eaters armies can't take units with the <Psyker> Keyword and AFAIK no Khorne Daemon units are Psykers either.
Khorne not liking sorcery is still very much a thing.
   
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xerxeskingofking wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
Well, Khorne hating magic was much more of a Fantasy thing, with Khorne and Tzeentch the bigger rivals. Originally, that was brought over to 40k but I believe it's sort of disappeared away in universe.

Khorne is synonymous with rage and brutality. The hunger of battle, the epitome of bloodlust. War is a sport and skulls are the trophies etc. Like 80% of the time that is what Khorne is about. Its all very straightforward and to the point. There's no scheming but there's still strategy.

I mean let's say we want a big old pile of skulls from this here Imperial planet for our lovely blood soaked diety. Now do we all charge en masse into the giant guns defending it and die or do we flank around the side with our veterans while some nerdy weak cultists charge screaming into the guns and die?

That's strategy. Blood still flows. Khorne is the best. Viva la Khornelution.


i think the hate of magic was a outgrowth of the hate for all ranged options, in a general hate for anything that wasnt straight up, face to face combat where the strongest wins, which plays into a hate of the master of both magic and dirty tricks, Tzeentch. Since these days they give the change vs stagantion angle much more weight he gets paired against Slanessh more, but of coruse everyone hates everyone.


Khorne has always been anti magic but hated Slaanesh the most, right back to Slaves to Darkness when the two were introduced.

And it was specifically magic he disliked, not range per se. Iirc there were World Eaters with heavy weapons back in StD and things like the Lord of Skulls have been in the background for a long time (one was on the cover of the 4th Ed WFB Chaos book!)
   
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U.k

Khorne used to be about martial pride as well. Not just killing for the sake of it but killing well and killing worthy opponents.

Now it’s all silly one dimensional rage, the turning on their own when there is no one else to kill or massacring civilians just for the blood and skulls is crap in comparison.
   
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Why Khorne hates Slaanesh is given from the original Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness:


Legions of Khorne

Excellence in battle is the highest form of worship for all of Khorne's followers. To fight in one of his Daemonic Legions is an honour to which all his servants aspire. Those rewarded by this privilege treat the occasion with the utmost gravity. Death is a serious business, and death in a Legion doubly so, for are not the eyes of Khorne always upon his most trusted servants? That Slaaneshi followers should treat warfare, the most sincere form of Khorne-worship, as just another pleasurable experience is infuriating. Battle in all its forms is a sacred ritual to Khorne's servants. Before each battle a ritual dedicates the blood of the slain, enemies and friends alike, to the Blood God

A Daemon Legion of Khorne is a fearsome and terrible sight. Its troops are dressed quite literally, to kill, adorned in Khorne's hues of red and black, the colours of blood and death. Their appearance is strictly that of soldiers, for only if they are unencumbered by frippery can they kill properly in Khorne's name. His Legionnaires carry this to extremes, with almost identical armour of red, black, and brass. Their expressions of deadly and murderous intent are broken only when they kill, as they smile grimly at sending another gift of blood to their dark lord.

-p. 182, Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness



Legions of Slaanesh

Slaanesh and his servants indulge in war: it is yet another pleasure to be sampled, not a serious business or test of strength. War is simply a game, part of the greater ritual, and Slaanesh is always the first to insist upon elaborate conditions and rituals before the Legions give battle.

The followers of Slaanesh seek gratification of the senses in all things. Battle is merely another method of finding a new warped pleasure. For Slaanesh's servants the thrills of battle are there to be joyfully experienced and repeated. Slaaneshi Daemons and mortal warriors delight in causing pain and killing; their wanton slaughter is spurred to greater heights by the pleasure they find in bloodshed.

The Slaaneshi attitude to battle and death is reflected in the Legion's appearance. Its troops parade in frivolous colours and clashing patterns, fantastic jewels and flamboyant costumes. The whole impression is that of a costume ball or masque rather than one of battle. The demeanour of a Slaaneshi Legion is equally perverse. Its Daemons and warriors shriek obscene jokes to each other, disport themselves with the dead and laugh with pleasure even as their own lives are taken. Any sensation, is after all, to be experienced and enjoyed. To express horror is a dreadful failing, one that is sure to be punished by the Lord of Pleasure.

-p. 185, Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness


Slaanesh's "Why so serious?" attitude to battle infuriates Khorne. Although Khorne hates Tzeentch too, and views magic as a coward's weapon, that is less personal than the contempt towards Slaanesh.
   
 
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