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Some new point and rules changes.

Does not affect me at all. (Although it probably will affect the warhammer channels I follow on youtube etc.)

They will also tweak rules and/or rules every 3 months. I REALLY like that. It is so good! Also so exiting that they even will update rules, like adding core etc.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/09/game-balance-is-at-the-heart-of-this-official-warhammer-40000-rules-update/

"Raaaaah! Death To The False Emperor!" *CSM fights harder*
"Dude, we're Eldar..."

How... counter-fluffy...

Crispy78 wrote:
"Raaaaah! Death To The False Emperor!" *CSM fights harder*
"Dude, we're Eldar..."

How... counter-fluffy...

'''Fluffy''' rules and their consequences have been a DISASTER for the quality of the game.

Crispy78 wrote:
"Raaaaah! Death To The False Emperor!" *CSM fights harder*
"Dude, we're Eldar..."

How... counter-fluffy...

Frankly its shocking they haven't just given them the +1W stat boost this entire time. I think that would have been more impactful than a boost to CC that will only make a marginal difference in most CSM lists.

So, still not two wounds for CSM… wow.

 jeff white wrote:
So, still not two wounds for CSM… wow.

Yah, big mistake imo.

Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.

Would be better and trivial to do though. Points are already done. 1w to all units and points out. Done

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZSzvXV2QkxJl3qCVRzni7tMvIHZTkzXrR24eq8R_eXQ/edit?usp=sharing

Here's my CSM mini-patch if anyone is frustrated by the lack of 2W csm.

Following on from the DG and Tsons 'dexes, this actually ditches current DTFE for +1A and changes DTFE to a simple little basic doctrine equivalent, but CSM-themed (you get to declare Maim Burn or Kill! How cute. Just like in Dawn of War)

Other than that, it's simple minor points adjustments and copy/pastes of the daemon engine and prince changes from Codex Tsons along with their corresponding points values.

If you for some reason need a third party to arbitrate your rules for your very very expensive model collections, then blame some donkey-cave on the internet instead of some donkey-cave at a company somewhere.

 alextroy wrote:
Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.

Is modifying an armor save (Leman Russ Tanks) a "rules tweak"? Looks like a stat change to me!

Imo there's no excuse for not having given CSM 2W by now.

 alextroy wrote:
Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.

Would this "all the other marines" include those marines that got a, what was it, week-0 emergency FAQ to give them 2W?

 Insectum7 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.

Is modifying an armor save (Leman Russ Tanks) a "rules tweak"? Looks like a stat change to me!

Imo there's no excuse for not having given CSM 2W by now.

W2 CSM come with points and strat issues and it's nutty that people keep ignoring this.

At present you can take a 20 man block. 20 man MEQ seem to be going away. But if you grant 40 wounds to a unit, give them Slaanesh and AL and a 5++ FNP from the priest on top of their -1 to be hit. You can do Forward Operatives and then if you get first turn Warptime that massive brick into the opponent.

 alextroy wrote:
Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.

So what is a rules tweak?
And why did the LR save go to 2+ now as opposed to whenever the Guard codex arrives?
Or does it depend upon where on the statline the changing # is?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.

Is modifying an armor save (Leman Russ Tanks) a "rules tweak"? Looks like a stat change to me!

Imo there's no excuse for not having given CSM 2W by now.

W2 CSM come with points and strat issues and it's nutty that people keep ignoring this.

At present you can take a 20 man block. 20 man MEQ seem to be going away. But if you grant 40 wounds to a unit, give them Slaanesh and AL and a 5++ FNP from the priest on top of their -1 to be hit. You can do Forward Operatives and then if you get first turn Warptime that massive brick into the opponent.

Damn, that sounds like something that might just kill a couple of raiders, maybe require an admech list to spend 1cp to move a unit of serberys out of the way of the charge...if they get first turn and dont go second and get dumpstered before all their buffs go up, lol.

this is really a nothing, dude. They changed strats and abilities with the day 1 SM faqs as well, it's OK to admit this gak is just inexcusable at this point. The amount of effort that went into the drukhari or admech points tweaks is more than enough to have not created problems with a CSM wound tweak.

ccs wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.

So what is a rules tweak?
And why did the LR save go to 2+ now as opposed to whenever the Guard codex arrives?
Or does it depend upon where on the statline the changing # is?

LR going from 3+ to 2+ will not affect the game balance by much. giving every CSM another wound will affect balance way more, like someone already mentioned with 40W blobs making single unit durability buffs twice as potent, for example.

If they'd just push that out, people would be complaining that it's unbalanced / untested / how could they do that without considering strat X, buff Y or charakter Zs ability. They very clearly said it's going to happen in the Codex, and that's how it's going to be. I totally understand the frustration that the codex isn't already out, by the way. But I don't get how people are disappointed every single time something is released that's NOT the CSM codex and miraculously does not contain the +1W.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.

Is modifying an armor save (Leman Russ Tanks) a "rules tweak"? Looks like a stat change to me!

Imo there's no excuse for not having given CSM 2W by now.

W2 CSM come with points and strat issues and it's nutty that people keep ignoring this.

At present you can take a 20 man block. 20 man MEQ seem to be going away. But if you grant 40 wounds to a unit, give them Slaanesh and AL and a 5++ FNP from the priest on top of their -1 to be hit. You can do Forward Operatives and then if you get first turn Warptime that massive brick into the opponent.

Yeah. Don't care. You know what might happen in that case? CSMs showing up in a CSM army. Ohs nohs!

GW is just edging you with the W2 thing.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.

Is modifying an armor save (Leman Russ Tanks) a "rules tweak"? Looks like a stat change to me!

Imo there's no excuse for not having given CSM 2W by now.

W2 CSM come with points and strat issues and it's nutty that people keep ignoring this.

At present you can take a 20 man block. 20 man MEQ seem to be going away. But if you grant 40 wounds to a unit, give them Slaanesh and AL and a 5++ FNP from the priest on top of their -1 to be hit. You can do Forward Operatives and then if you get first turn Warptime that massive brick into the opponent.

I could be wrong because I don't pay much attention to Marine stuff but didn't Imperial marines get blanket 2 wounds and no other changes. So Grey Knights, all unique types of Blood Angels, Dark Angels etc all went up before they got their codex?

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.

Is modifying an armor save (Leman Russ Tanks) a "rules tweak"? Looks like a stat change to me!

Imo there's no excuse for not having given CSM 2W by now.

W2 CSM come with points and strat issues and it's nutty that people keep ignoring this.

At present you can take a 20 man block. 20 man MEQ seem to be going away. But if you grant 40 wounds to a unit, give them Slaanesh and AL and a 5++ FNP from the priest on top of their -1 to be hit. You can do Forward Operatives and then if you get first turn Warptime that massive brick into the opponent.

I could be wrong because I don't pay much attention to Marine stuff but didn't Imperial marines get blanket 2 wounds and no other changes. So Grey Knights, all unique types of Blood Angels, Dark Angels etc all went up before they got their codex?

Not sure about GK, but Im pretty sure that the extra wound for all the regular marines were updated when the SM codex came out (which included DA,BA, SW and DW and updated rules pdfs for all their unique models).

 the_scotsman wrote:

Damn, that sounds like something that might just kill a couple of raiders, maybe require an admech list to spend 1cp to move a unit of serberys out of the way of the charge...if they get first turn and dont go second and get dumpstered before all their buffs go up, lol.

this is really a nothing, dude. They changed strats and abilities with the day 1 SM faqs as well, it's OK to admit this gak is just inexcusable at this point. The amount of effort that went into the drukhari or admech points tweaks is more than enough to have not created problems with a CSM wound tweak.

You know damn well there's more to it.

If a Strike is 22 with a Psilencer then a Noise Marine with a Sonic Blaster is going to be less. And you can take 20 of those with exploding hits on 5s.

With Chainswords that's 4 attacks. 10 of them would kill 18 skitari with no buffs what so ever.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.

Is modifying an armor save (Leman Russ Tanks) a "rules tweak"? Looks like a stat change to me!

Imo there's no excuse for not having given CSM 2W by now.

W2 CSM come with points and strat issues and it's nutty that people keep ignoring this.

At present you can take a 20 man block. 20 man MEQ seem to be going away. But if you grant 40 wounds to a unit, give them Slaanesh and AL and a 5++ FNP from the priest on top of their -1 to be hit. You can do Forward Operatives and then if you get first turn Warptime that massive brick into the opponent.

If that's a problem they could as well reduce the squadsize to 5-10, as easy as that. And/ or throw 2 points on each CSM. It's really not that complicated...

Yea, I mean they already printed 2 army lists, they could have easily done a "Chaos Space Marines, Chosen, Terminators, etc get +1W" and printed a 3rd army list, with modified points and unit sizes...

Don't reduce CSM potential squad size. They've been able to take 20-man squads for at least 25 years.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
If that's a problem they could as well reduce the squadsize to 5-10, as easy as that. And/ or throw 2 points on each CSM. It's really not that complicated...

There's just way more to it than that. Few armies have a 5+++ readily available to any unit. What about Plague Marines? Daemon engines buffed to the standard of TS & DG with the LD buffs as present or no?

I'm sure they could do it, but it is more involved than just "simply" adding an extra wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Don't reduce CSM potential squad size. They've been able to take 20-man squads for at least 25 years.

Yes that's their thing being non-codex, but TS lost it so unless they get creative CSM will probably lose it, too.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

Damn, that sounds like something that might just kill a couple of raiders, maybe require an admech list to spend 1cp to move a unit of serberys out of the way of the charge...if they get first turn and dont go second and get dumpstered before all their buffs go up, lol.

this is really a nothing, dude. They changed strats and abilities with the day 1 SM faqs as well, it's OK to admit this gak is just inexcusable at this point. The amount of effort that went into the drukhari or admech points tweaks is more than enough to have not created problems with a CSM wound tweak.

You know damn well there's more to it.

If a Strike is 22 with a Psilencer then a Noise Marine with a Sonic Blaster is going to be less. And you can take 20 of those with exploding hits on 5s.

With Chainswords that's 4 attacks. 10 of them would kill 18 skitari with no buffs what so ever.

Not sure what the Strike and Psilencer are about, but off the top of my head. . . I believe Assault Intercessors themselves get 4 attacks each with Chainswords on the charge, and come in squads of ten.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Don't reduce CSM potential squad size. They've been able to take 20-man squads for at least 25 years.

Yes that's their thing being non-codex, but TS lost it so unless they get creative CSM will probably lose it, too.

Well I'll put throw that right into the "reasons why 9th is the worst edition ever" bucket I keep next to my desk.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Not sure what the Strike and Psilencer are about, but off the top of my head. . . I believe Assault Intercessors themselves get 4 attacks each with Chainswords on the charge, and come in squads of ten.

Right, but no real special rules where Noise Marines can throw a grenade into combat on death and get exploding 5s now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well I'll put throw that right into the "reasons why 9th is the worst edition ever" bucket I keep next to my desk.

Do note that it's just speculation on my part.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Not sure what the Strike and Psilencer are about, but off the top of my head. . . I believe Assault Intercessors themselves get 4 attacks each with Chainswords on the charge, and come in squads of ten.

Right, but no real special rules where Noise Marines can throw a grenade into combat on death and get exploding 5s now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well I'll put throw that right into the "reasons why 9th is the worst edition ever" bucket I keep next to my desk.

Do note that it's just speculation on my part.

A 10-Man Intercessor squad, with the right buffs, can one-round a Questoris Knight.

And no, not Assault Intercessors. The shooty ones can do it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.

Is modifying an armor save (Leman Russ Tanks) a "rules tweak"? Looks like a stat change to me!

Imo there's no excuse for not having given CSM 2W by now.

W2 CSM come with points and strat issues and it's nutty that people keep ignoring this.

At present you can take a 20 man block. 20 man MEQ seem to be going away. But if you grant 40 wounds to a unit, give them Slaanesh and AL and a 5++ FNP from the priest on top of their -1 to be hit. You can do Forward Operatives and then if you get first turn Warptime that massive brick into the opponent.

So do an update that gives:
CSM/Rubrics/Noise Marines/Berzerkers/Plague Marines/Chosen/Raptors/Warp Talons/Fallen/Havocs 2W but limit max squad size to 10 for those that were over 10 before.
Possesed stay 2W. Oblits stay 4W. Mutilators stay 3W.
Terminators/Bikers go to 3W.

There is a current unit in the CSM codex, they have 2W each, power armour, you can take 20 of them in a unit, they can have the -1 to hit chapter tactic, the -1 to hit priest buff, the 5+++ FNP spell and already have an in built 5++, they can use Forward Operatives and Warptime (they also move 7" not 6" so benefit even more from Warptime and are a melee focused unit already)... Don't see many of them currently do we?

There is a new unit in the Black Templars supplement, they have 2W each, 9 in power armour, 11 in scout armour, they can take 20 in a unit, they can be buffed with a 5++, can't be wounded on 1s and 2s, a 5+++, immune to all psychic and to top it off they can if they want spend CP to can't be wounded on 3s too. This unit is also not wrecking the gaming tables.

 JNAProductions wrote:
A 10-Man Intercessor squad, with the right buffs, can one-round a Questoris Knight.

And no, not Assault Intercessors. The shooty ones can do it.

Yes and that's a whole lotta buffs and considerations in a math-hammer vacuum. Iron Warriors grant full reroll wounds for 1 CP. VotLW is still 1 CP. The prayer is +1 to wound. Prescience and a lord for essentially auto-hits and the exploding 5s.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Not sure what the Strike and Psilencer are about, but off the top of my head. . . I believe Assault Intercessors themselves get 4 attacks each with Chainswords on the charge, and come in squads of ten.

Right, but no real special rules where Noise Marines can throw a grenade into combat on death and get exploding 5s now.

Oh that rule, yeah that's irritating. Buuuuut guess what? With this latest update GW has given us a format where they are capable of making tweaks and adjustments for handling weird balance edge cases. Throw a limit to the amount of on-death grenade attacks a unit can make, or whatever.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well I'll put throw that right into the "reasons why 9th is the worst edition ever" bucket I keep next to my desk.

Do note that it's just speculation on my part.

Understood, but I don't like where it's going.

See, to me, the current crime is in the failure to make appropriate adjustments around very foundational aspects of unit identity . . . but the reason is because of some weird edge case that happens because of the modern Strat/Aura/buff paradigm? It's terrible! Foundational unit-character stuff should be the thing you prioritize above everything else. If loyalists are on 2w CSMs should be on 2w, end of story. Handle any unaccounted-for fallout after making the appropriate adjustments to the foundational unit characteristics.