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Hey everyone, I've got a judge question for those that know of such things. Here's the situation:

Setting is a casual slow grow league, not anything super competitive.

Someone is making a leadership check, they roll the dice and BEFORE it stops rolling, they say "gak I meant to auto pass". Do you go with whatever the roll of the dice said, or allow the use of the stratagem?

I had a game earlier where I was the one that missed the call by a second, and my opponent insisted that I had to go with the roll (after he saw it was a fail, though to be fair, he didn't really have time to say it beforehand) saying that the choice is locked in once the die is cast even if it hasn't resulted in a number yet. While I saw his point, I disagreed saying that the result was not yet known and I would have spent the 2Cp even had I rolled a 1. We ended up arguing for a couple minutes before I called a judge over (which his weirdly insisted I also wasn't supposed to do) and the judge ruled in my favour and I was allowed to use the stratagem.

He was a total ass hat about it calling me a cheater and such (even though I'd often reminded him of his own beneficial rules multiple times as he forgot them (FNP's, missed shooting a weapon, that kind of thing), and he was a super stickler on me throughout the game with mine) and just picked up his models and left. However, despite his childish attitude, I do think that he honestly believed I'd cheated him. So I was curious as to what other judges/players out there thought, did our judge make the right call, should I have been allowed to use the strat?

Friendly game, allow the use of the stratagem.

Tourney, I still probably allow the use of the stratagem.


P.S. sometimes tournament bring out TFG. best option is to call a TO and let them decide, and not pay any attention to that guy.

I see no rules question, this should be in the tournament section.

I agree, this is a tournament question not a rules question. You would likely get more useful responses from the tournament forum.

That being said, for friendly games I am guided by the principle that you should give your opponent the benefit of the doubt and when a rule or situation can be interpreted more than one way, you should go with the interpretation that favours your opponent/is least beneficial to you.

Ideally your opponent will do the same, but unfortunately that isn’t always the case.

Yeah this is etiquette not rules question as others have said. Ultimately, you rolled the dice instead of requesting an “instead of rolling” Strat in a competitive situation. I’m surprised the judge ruled how they did. In a friendly it’s up to the players and I’d totally allow it unless result known.

By strict RAW, as soon as you roll the die it is too late to use a rule that triggers before the die is rolled, even if the result is unknown yet. You've still rolled the die, regardless of your knowledge of the outcome.

In reality, I'd let it slide the first time my opponent did it - just scoop up the die or cover it with your hand before the result is shown. However, if my opponent made a habit of it, I would suspect they were taking advantage of me.

I don't think it's right to simply expect your opponent to let this slide against you, though. My gut feel is that your opponent interpreted your action as an expectation that he should be lenient, rather than a request.

So, to clarify a few things, I was intending this to be a rules question:

What I wanted to know was by the official rules, is the roll "official" on casting or the resolution of the dice? I couldn't find anything in the rulebook that said one way or the other.

As for the expectation of leniency, I did not expect that from him at all. He'd been playing pretty shady and possibly cheating for the whole game (Rolling dice when I turned around to put dead models away, trying to deep strike his units turn 1, a lot of not WYSIWYG and not being super clear on what was what, "misremembering" really common rules that always benefited him, he'd clearly been teching his list between rounds (he was bragging to me about how he took down a GK Dreadknight list with a whole bunch of meltas, yet against my swarm list which he had seen me play in a previous round, suddenly he was full of flamers and storm bolters with only two meltas in the whole list). I had made a few other little misplays in the game that he didn't let me take back which was well within his right (not very sportsmanlike as I let him take back stuff, but that's just how I like to play and does not mean he is obligated to do the same). However, with this call, I wasn't sure on the ruling itself; if it was up to the players or was an actual rule of casting of dice vs resolution of dice. Normally I just trust that my opponent knows more than me since I'm still reasonably new to post 7th ed, and hope that they will play fair, but I wasn't having it with this guy which is why I called the TO in.

However, just because he was a WAAC jerk and probable cheater, doesn't mean he couldn't be correct about this rule and I wanted to know if that was the case for future reference. After everything, I'm not sure why I believe that he actually thought this was a legit rule as apposed to everything else. Perhaps because he backed down on all the other stuff when I called him out on it, but not this time? It was also a pretty game defining moment and was likely to play a significant role in determining the victor of the game, so maybe he was just going all in on it? IDK, maybe I'm just overthinking all this. It's been a long time since I've had a pretty bad experience in a 40k game, so maybe it's just getting to me more than I should be letting it.

Again, you’re asking an etiquette question.

If you roll the dice, you’ve made a roll. That is self evident so doesn’t need to be in the rules.

Then if you say you want to do an instead-of-rolling option instead you’re asking your opponent for a “takesy backsey”, even if the dice are still in motion.

That’s all there is to it. As I and others above said it’s up to the two players involved how to handle a “backsey” situation. Friendly? Likely no issue. Competitive? Well you’ve left yourself open and shouldn’t expect kindness. Again, I’m amazed the judge sided with you as if you’ve rolled the dice, you’ve rolled the dice! They let you perform time travel, so no matter your opponent’s prior conduct this is one they could rightly feel aggrieved by.

 Cheex wrote:
By strict RAW, as soon as you roll the die it is too late to use a rule that triggers before the die is rolled, even if the result is unknown yet. You've still rolled the die, regardless of your knowledge of the outcome.

In reality, I'd let it slide the first time my opponent did it - just scoop up the die or cover it with your hand before the result is shown. However, if my opponent made a habit of it, I would suspect they were taking advantage of me.

I don't think it's right to simply expect your opponent to let this slide against you, though. My gut feel is that your opponent interpreted your action as an expectation that he should be lenient, rather than a request.

Do you happen to know where in the rules it says that? I was looking but couldn't find anything concrete. Thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Again, you’re asking an etiquette question.

If you roll the dice, you’ve made a roll. That is self evident so doesn’t need to be in the rules.

So why do the rules state things like cocked dice and dice that have rolled off the table? That seems self evident to me that they would need to be re-rolled, but they are defined. I suppose those are much more common occurrences than what I'm talking about, so maybe that's why? Though I can see this happening often enough, especially if people are trying to play quickly.

See, to me, I would think it would be upon resolution, that makes the most sense to me, but other people seem to think otherwise. I don't necessarily disagree, I can see both sides of it. On the one hand, if the die hasn't finished rolling, there is nothing functionally different than had something been declared before the roll of the dice. However, on the other, I could see it leading to arguments over if a die had or hadn't stopped rolling. I certainly wouldn't say it's self evident though, that is why I was asking in the first place after all.

The core rules give guidance on how to deal with dice rolls landing out of bounds and cocked dice, but this is guidance only and not rules. They even make reference to common house rules that can be used in these situations but it is made clear that how to deal with this is up to the players involved.

At a tournament this should be determined by the TO.

As for your situation regarding rolling a morale test, then remembering to use the Insane Bravery strategem before the dice result is determined-

The wording for Insane Bravery (emphasis mine):

Use this Stratagem before you take a Morale test for a unit in your army. That test is automatically passed (do not roll any dice). You can only use this Stratagem once per battle.

RAW you can only use the strategem before any dice are rolled.

Aash wrote:
The core rules give guidance on how to deal with dice rolls landing out of bounds and cocked dice, but this is guidance only and not rules. They even make reference to common house rules that can be used in these situations but it is made clear that how to deal with this is up to the players involved.

At a tournament this should be determined by the TO.

As for your situation regarding rolling a morale test, then remembering to use the Insane Bravery strategem before the dice result is determined-

The wording for Insane Bravery (emphasis mine):

Use this Stratagem before you take a Morale test for a unit in your army. That test is automatically passed (do not roll any dice). You can only use this Stratagem once per battle.

RAW you can only use the strategem before any dice are rolled.

Ah, I should have checked the actual wording of the Stratagem itself rather than looking for a catch all. I should have thought of that. Thank you, this is what I was looking for.

Looking back to the rules, in regards to cocked and out of bounds dice, they clarify that they need to be re-rolled (and that do not count as the one re-roll), but that it's up to the players to determine the specifics of what is and isn't cocked and out of bounds. So, sort of, I guess?

The rules on cocked dice are to clear up otherwise gray areas people argue about.

It’s not arguable that an instead of rolling Strat needs to be done instead of rolling. If you pick up dice and roll, you rolled. That’s just logical, doesn’t need spelling out.

By rules can't takeback but generally i'm pretty relaxed about these. In particular if it's fairly obvious time and always if dice is still rolling.

If result is already clear board situation needs to be pretty clear it was what he would have done anyway without mental slip etc in a hurry

RAW no, once the dice is cast that's it. But it is totally in line with average sportsmanship to be like 'crap I meant to use the command' and undo. In casual play that happens all the time, it's no big deal. Especially if they say it before the dice stops moving, or if they roll a 1.

The guy you had the bad experience with was just out of line on hit attitude and behavior. While technically RAW, so is the Player's Code. Sadly this is pretty much the attitude for a good number of competitive players.