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I was reading one of the old Eldar codexes where there is a quote about the Orks "The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude."
It got me thinking about Chaos and how it interacts with various groups in the Universe. I wonder if given enough time, Chaos wouldn't begin to influence the Orks. Could we see a "Chaos Orks" faction come to the game? If so how would such a faction work on the Tabletop?
Disclaimer: This is not a "Do you want" post. This is a speculation post on how such a faction would work on the tabletop. Please leave the "I don't want chaos orks" discussion for somewhere else.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/12 19:15:41
The old Demon Hunters codex had a blurb about chaos orks in the section on justifying the arrival of Grey Knights in battles without demons.
I don't see why Chaos couldn't affect orks in some matter, corrupting them in some unforeseen way. Not sure how that would play out on the table top though...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/12 19:36:40
amanita wrote: The old Demon Hunters codex had a blurb about chaos orks in the section on justifying the arrival of Grey Knights in battles without demons.
I don't see why Chaos couldn't effect orks in some matter, corrupting them in some unforeseen way. Not sure how that would play out on the table top though...
The problem is Orks are very good at self-policing. Chaos Orks exist, for sure, but they don't tend to last long as other Orks kill them for acting "un-Orky".
Everyone seems to assume Orks and Khorne go together like the single most iconic duo out there, but just imagine a Slaaneshi Kult of Speed. The very notion of KOS is already up in Slaanesh's wheelhouse- that's one I'd love to see just from a modelling perspective.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
Yup. Chaos Orks are a thing. More than one Ork Codex mentions them. My favourite is the description of a daemon tempted to possess an Ork Wierdboy, only to find hist host too weird/self possessed to be controlled, and be stuck there until the Wierdboy’s demise :-)
In my RT Ork army, I would field a variety of Chaos tainted Ork units in a Freebooterz army (the only set of Orks desperate enough to let them take part in the fight); Stormboyz of Khorne, Slaaneshi Ork/Genestealer Hybrid Trukk Boyz, Tzeench Trukk Boyz with mutations and Nurgling/Snotling Grots.
No special rules for them, just as per Codex.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/12 19:42:11
Grimtuff wrote: The problem is Orks are very good at self-policing. Chaos Orks exist, for sure, but they don't tend to last long as other Orks kill them for acting "un-Orky".
This. Ork-Genestealer Hybrids also exist, but have to hide away from 'normal' Orks or they're wiped out.
Moriarty wrote: Yup. Chaos Orks are a thing. More than one Ork Codex mentions them. My favourite is the description of a daemon tempted to possess an Ork Wierdboy, only to find hist host too weird/self possessed to be controlled, and be stuck there until the Wierdboy’s demise :-)
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
amanita wrote: The old Demon Hunters codex had a blurb about chaos orks in the section on justifying the arrival of Grey Knights in battles without demons.
I don't see why Chaos couldn't effect orks in some matter, corrupting them in some unforeseen way. Not sure how that would play out on the table top though...
The problem is Orks are very good at self-policing. Chaos Orks exist, for sure, but they don't tend to last long as other Orks kill them for acting "un-Orky".
I agree for the most part. Chaos orks would be an unusual exception more than a sustained force. Nevertheless, a new wrinkle or other possibilities are interesting to consider.
Get a copy of 'Ere We Go. It was their second edition Codex, beautiful lore related to Chaos Orks.
There's no reason Chaos and Ork Kultur could not co-exist, especially with regards to Khorne. I just don't think the Chaos side would be long lived, more like spontaneously-organized warbands that burn out in the midst of factional rivalries.
From the human perspective, the Chaos Gods seek to offer succour and freedom in an oppressive regime. Human life in 40K is pretty miserable, unless you’re in the fraction of a percent top level of society.
Orks? Well. Orky Kultur centres on Gork and Mork. Be cunnin’. Be fighty. If you’re ‘ard enuff you get wealthier and more powerful.
Ork society, whilst alien to our mindset, is near perfect. Might Makes Right, and nobody really questions it. If you take your shot, you either wind up dead, boss, or incrementally ‘arder in surviving.
There’s basically not an awful lot for Chaos to gain a foothold on. No anxiety. No feelings of being inadequate or cheated. Long as you’ve got teef, you don’t really know abject poverty. And your teef are always growing and replacing each other. Even if you’re coming up short? There’s precisely nothing wrong societally wrong with simply clobbering someone else and taking all their teef.
Orky society has no real law. Yet. It functions. Near perfectly by its own standards. A dissatisfied Ork is only one punch up away from satisfaction or death.
Look to the old Orky adage about how they never lose. That’s a hell of a positive mindset.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
The chaos gods are universal, but they aren't generic.
Khorne represents the concept of fighting and killing and honour etc, but that concept is different depending on the species.
If it were true that chaos doesn't have much to offer species based on their human centric portrayal, then Slannesh would have no ability to interact with anyone not eldar, as it was created by them and is a reflection of their needs for excess.
Human excess is different, ork excess is different etc.
No, they represent fundamental elements of sapience, which manifests differently depending on the species.
Human, eldar and Ork feelings of Excess are different flavours of the same primordial warp energy.
Basically they're all isotopes of primordial excess.
Their appeal will be identical for all species, because they appeal to what that species considers excess/rage etc, not what another species feels.
It would be a bit silly if Nurgle tried to recruit orkish followers using Human sensibilities.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/12 23:29:59
The chaos gods are universal, but they aren't generic.
Khorne represents the concept of fighting and killing and honour etc, but that concept is different depending on the species.
If it were true that chaos doesn't have much to offer species based on their human centric portrayal, then Slannesh would have no ability to interact with anyone not eldar, as it was created by them and is a reflection of their needs for excess.
Human excess is different, ork excess is different etc.
No, they represent fundamental elements of sapience, which manifests differently depending on the species.
Human, eldar and Ork feelings of Excess are different flavours of the same primordial warp energy.
Basically they're all isotopes of primordial excess.
Their appeal will be identical for all species, because they appeal to what that species considers excess/rage etc, not what another species feels.
It would be a bit silly if Nurgle tried to recruit orkish followers using Human sensibilities.
Snip
The biggest problem (other than the whole 'kill 'em for not being orky enough) is that the Chaos Gods are focused.
Battle lust without the need for honor, just the thrill of combat and constantly becoming better at it? Yeah, Khorne's got that in spades.
Pursuit of pleasure, whatever it takes to get that high, and a drive to be the absolute best? Slaanesh has got you covered!
Protection from disease, exceptional endurance, no pain, and the ability to recover from bodily harm which would thrice kill you? Grand Pappy Nurgle is in the house!
That drive to reach the top, the thrill of a hood-winking your enemies, and hoping you can take the reigns of fate to force your will upon others? Tzeentch likes the sound of that.
The Chaos Gods truly have everything covered. Every aspect of Orkdom is squarely in their wheelhouse, no questions asked. Except for one teeny, tiny, utterly minor problem.
You have to choose.
Slaanesh excludes Khorne, going with Nurgle meaus Tzeentch won't give you the time of day, ect ect. While every path might have a teeny tiny taste of the others by virtue of combat being involved, enjoying what you do, having the ability to think ahead, or taking a chainsaw to your fancy new tentacle rather than your face.. You are very much "locked" into whichever god you lean towards.
Enter Gork & Mork.
Gork & Mork cover every thing the Chaos gods do, except you don't have to choose. You can live to drive so fast your eyes pop out of your head while laughing at how you cut Grog-Snik's break line (despite not knowing what breaks are), have a lascannon blow away half your torso, and then jam your warbike's gear assembly with the guts of the fifty guardsmen you just introduced to your choppa. Which is a tire iron.
Them chaos gods are for puny humies. You? You're an ork. Why would you slot yourself into one window when you have two ready-made gods who give you everything any one of those Chaos gits ever could, but also give you everything else? And you don't have to do any rituals or accidentally wake up as a writhing horror of limbs, gnashing jaws, and explosively ejecting bowels.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/13 04:17:05
This basically. I’m pretty sure if my memory is correct that the only chaos orks there are now are nobz who challenge the warboss, fail, but are left alive kinda grumbling, then occasionally khorne will swoop in to get ‘em.
Nurgle orks don’t really happen, last time nurgle plagued the orks Gork and Mork beat the gak out of him and trashed his garden
This isn’t to say orks don’t take advantage of chaos, there’s a demon blade that makes it’s way through waaaghs and of course Tuska.
"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos
While I am firmly in the camp that Chaos, as it is currently presented, has nothing to offer Orks that Gork and Mork, as they are currently presented, don't already provide. I know in the past there have been mentioning of Chaos fallen orks in a few places, but its been almost 20 years since there has been any dedicated talk about the possibility. However, the OP threw this onto the post and I'll go forward with it.
Disclaimer: This is not a "Do you want" post. This is a speculation post on how such a faction would work on the tabletop. Please leave the "I don't want chaos orks" discussion for somewhere else.
First, if there is a Chaos infused warband, I dont feel that it would be a very big one. Also I think that most of the leadership positions wouldn't be Orks. So IMO, that means no Warboss or Nobs. These orks would have fought against the influence when it was new, so IMO if the infestation managed to take hold the typical Ork leadership would have to have been killed off.
So that leaves Greater Daemons in the Warboss position. I also feel that a daemon squad could be used for Nob squads. These are the leaders. This includes the normal Nob upgrade unit leader, it would be replaced by a stronger daemon of the chosen God. Something not as robust as a GD, but stronger than a typical bloodletter, daemonette, etc.
Naturally all units could be marked, with the standard bonus that Marks give, however, I feel a warband would be mono devoted, too much infighting if more than one Chaos God tried to get in their influence.
Lesser daemons, I personally think there should be a limit of those daemon packs, maybe max two units, and they obviously should alligned with the GD leader, and they can only be summoned off of the GD or a Wierdboy. However, that isn't too say daemons dont have a presence and here is where I think things could be fun and present great modeling opportunities. I feel that Daemon possession of Ork vehicles should be a very big thing. I'm talking about possessed deff dreads, Kans, trukks, bugggies, trakks, even bikes. The whole lot, without an ork rider/driver to be seen but lots of tenticles, flaming skulls, bloated infestations, etc. Naturally these mutations should incur some sort of bonus depending on the God who gave the gift.
Anyway, I feel that Chaos Orks would probably be like Chaos Marines. Normal marines/Orks, but with daemon influence thrown in here and there. Obviously point adjustment should be made to balance out the additional bonuses given by the Chaos Gifts, but that is for someone else to figure out.
If chaos orks exist, also chaos tyranids and chaos drukhari would make sense.
The latter in particular as chaos dark elves (Slaanesh) were a big thing in WHFB 6th-7th thanks to the expansion Storm of Chaos, and drukhari are the evil faction by definition.
Blackie wrote: If chaos orks exist, also chaos tyranids and chaos drukhari would make sense.
The latter in particular as chaos dark elves (Slaanesh) were a big thing in WHFB 6th-7th thanks to the expansion Storm of Chaos, and drukhari are the evil faction by definition.
Chaos Eldar exist and are considered some of chaos most powerful champions.
If an inanimate tank can be possessed and corrupted by chaos, then a living carnifex can.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: Nurgle orks don’t really happen, last time nurgle plagued the orks Gork and Mork beat the gak out of him and trashed his garden
The current DG codex still has the nurgle ork story in it - essentially they are ork poxwalkers that kept their identity and explode into plague when dying. In order to create them they were infected with a specifically designed plague.
Chaos orks do exist, but they are rare exceptions and usually only happen when the ork's interests happen to align with chaos. They cannot be tempted by chaos and there is never a reason not to just fighting the followers of chaos instead of joining them. There also is a strong flow within the ork culture to weed out unorky behavior, so even if a daemon might temporally become the Warboss of a Waaagh!, his boyz might eventually turn on him if he isn't showing proppa behavior or the orks are unhappy with their boss for any reason. Anything to weird will become an outcast anyways, like most weird boyz, many meks or Mad Doc Grotznik are, so if one of those actually falls to chaos, their influence is rather minimal.
Whether this is by design or by accident, no one really knows, but the orks themselves claim that "in the time of the old 'uns", Gork and Mork gave the chaos chaos gods a beating that they only barely got back up from, so now they stay away from orks because they are afraid of Gork and Mork.
This means that orks are fairly resistant to the seed of chaos, up to the point where an entire Waaagh! of them is a truely unique thing to happen. And even when it does - they are still mostly acting like orks.
To display them on the tabletop, you are probably off well enough by picking the clan that aligns with your chosen god the best and just convert the models accordingly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/13 13:25:19
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
I wouldn't count the Plague Orks or the infected Bioship (singular, this was only in Storm of Iron and hasn't been seen since AFAIK) as Chaos <insert faction>. They don't worship the Gods or or serve in a direct capacity. They weren't willingly infected with those plagues and viruses, it was entirely unwanted on their part. They are no more the servants of Chaos than an autogun with an eight-pointed star stamped on the side.
Also, can someone point me to these Chaos Aeldari? And I mean proper Chaos Aeldari, not Khayon's pet Scourge from the Black Legion series.
Gert wrote: Also, can someone point me to these Chaos Aeldari? And I mean proper Chaos Aeldari, not Khayon's pet Scourge from the Black Legion series.
Lexicanum wrote:Chaos Eldar
Chaos Eldar are extremely rare, and by far the most damned of their race. Utterly at the mercy of their Chaos masters to prevent their soul being swallowed by Slaanesh, they are unacknowledged and forever forgotten by their kinfolk, their souls eternally barred from peace.[13]
Gert wrote: Also, can someone point me to these Chaos Aeldari? And I mean proper Chaos Aeldari, not Khayon's pet Scourge from the Black Legion series.
Lexicanum wrote:Chaos Eldar
Chaos Eldar are extremely rare, and by far the most damned of their race. Utterly at the mercy of their Chaos masters to prevent their soul being swallowed by Slaanesh, they are unacknowledged and forever forgotten by their kinfolk, their souls eternally barred from peace.[13]
13: Codex: Eldar (2nd Edition), pg. 20
There also was an artwork in the 8th edition BRB that showed all Eldar factions, including / hinting at Chaos Eldar, too.
Lexicanum wrote:Chaos Eldar
Chaos Eldar are extremely rare, and by far the most damned of their race. Utterly at the mercy of their Chaos masters to prevent their soul being swallowed by Slaanesh, they are unacknowledged and forever forgotten by their kinfolk, their souls eternally barred from peace.[13]
13: Codex: Eldar (2nd Edition), pg. 20
Ok, so very very old background then. Has that concept ever been revisited since 2nd Ed or has it been dropped? And just so we're clear, I'm not talking about Aeldari who have been corrupted by the Warp and mutated horribly, I mean Aeldari who worship the Pantheon in the same way other races do.
Blackie wrote: If chaos orks exist, also chaos tyranids and chaos drukhari would make sense.
The latter in particular as chaos dark elves (Slaanesh) were a big thing in WHFB 6th-7th thanks to the expansion Storm of Chaos, and drukhari are the evil faction by definition.
Chaos Eldar exist and are considered some of chaos most powerful champions.
If an inanimate tank can be possessed and corrupted by chaos, then a living carnifex can.
I see it the other way round, tanks are possessed by binding a demon to them. A carbides has much more control and protection from the hive mind. In fact how does one corrupt something with no sense free will
Blackie wrote: If chaos orks exist, also chaos tyranids and chaos drukhari would make sense.
The latter in particular as chaos dark elves (Slaanesh) were a big thing in WHFB 6th-7th thanks to the expansion Storm of Chaos, and drukhari are the evil faction by definition.
Chaos Eldar exist and are considered some of chaos most powerful champions.
If an inanimate tank can be possessed and corrupted by chaos, then a living carnifex can.
I see it the other way round, tanks are possessed by binding a demon to them. A carbides has much more control and protection from the hive mind. In fact how does one corrupt something with no sense free will
Chaos corrupts whole planets, trees, rocks, the glass of spires (eisenhorn iirc). No one has to deliberately perform rituals to bind a daemon into something for it to get corrupted either. You don't have to worship chaos to be corrupted by it, just be in close proximity for an extended amount of time.
Tyranids can be corrupted, but they don't have the free will to worship chaos.
Orks on the other hand, can both be corrupted and worship chaos. The idea that chaos has nothing to offer orks because gork and mork have it covered is just a lack of imagination.
Slanneshi speed kults could connect their central nervous system to the engines of their vehicles so they get stimmed the more they rev the engine, they could find that flaying the skin from the fronts of their bodies causes insane sensation as they travel at crazy speeds, the wind whipping at raw flesh.
Slannesh offers new avenues that mork and gork don't, extensions and directions and sensations that only warp magic can create. The above wouldn't work the same doing it in a mundane morkish way, but add chaos magic and suddenly tweaking your nipples to change speeds on your bike becomes feasible....
Just because some people can't conceive of how it would work, doesn't mean it couldn't. Argument from incredulity is a fallacy.
EDIT: Tzeentchian kommandos that develop mutations creating human facsimile protrusions from the fronts of their bodies, a bit like the bugs in the film mimic. So they are now able to sneak up on imperial guard to a degree completely unheard of, while also making them appear terrifying and disturbing. Gork and Mork can't do that.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/01/13 22:09:33
Eldar- 4436 pts
