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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Hi all,

Just wondering if someone better informed than myself can elucidate how the Four Chaos gods were originally created. I don't mean in-universe lore, I mean the story of how the writers at GW decided there would be four major Chaos Gods (why not eight?,) and that those four would represent desire, change, disease, and slaughter / war specifically. (Yes, I know about the now-apocryphal, ownership-rights-conflicted 5th one, Malal / Malice, of whom I'm a fan.)

Everyone knows the Chaos gods owe a debt to Michael Moorcock, but having read Moorcock myself, Arioch and company don't match up all that well with the personae and traits of the Four. So who do we credit for inventing Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Khorne, and have those writers ever spoken about how they came up with the Four to be the principle powers of Chaos?

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Longtime Dakkanaut





Nottingham

I think that they were based on various interpretations of the devil-dark prince (Slaanesh) Lord of the Flies (Nurgle) Apollyon (Khorne) The Deceiver (Tzeentch). I'm not saying that those are the definite inspirations, but they line up well.

I think that Ian Miller came up with Nurgle after a brief that was pretty much just 'a plague god.'

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/07 19:56:04


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Well….

Something happened which began to disturb the equilibrium of pre-Chaos warp space. The tides and eddies which could regenerate and reinvigorate a sufficiently powerful soul started shifting and changing.

It’s not clear what actually caused that - or even if the Chaos Gods existed then, either in their current forms but less powerful, or as perhaps more benevolent and balanced deities which became corrupted by the shift in warp tides etc as certain emotions began to dominate.

And even that stuff is of now questionable veracity, as it stems from the Realms of Chaos books.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






 JamesY wrote:
I think that they were based on various interpretations of the devil-dark prince (Slaanesh) Lord of the Flies (Nurgle) Apollyon (Khorne) The Deceiver (Tzeentch). I'm not saying that those are the definite inspirations, but they line up well.

I think that Ian Miller came up with Nurgle after a brief that was pretty much just 'a plague god.'


Thanks for that - I had no idea Miller played a role in creating Nurgle.

I don't know anymore than you if those devil aspects directly informed the Chaos Four or not, but they do line up well. There's also the Four Horsemen, probably the most iconic apocalyptic quartet, but outside of War, Conquest, Famine, and Death don't fit all that well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/07 20:05:32


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Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 Talking Banana wrote:
 JamesY wrote:
I think that they were based on various interpretations of the devil-dark prince (Slaanesh) Lord of the Flies (Nurgle) Apollyon (Khorne) The Deceiver (Tzeentch). I'm not saying that those are the definite inspirations, but they line up well.

I think that Ian Miller came up with Nurgle after a brief that was pretty much just 'a plague god.'


Thanks for that - I had no idea Miller played a role in creating Nurgle.

I don't know anymore than you if those devil aspects directly informed the Chaos Four or not, but they do line up well. There's also the Four Horsemen, probably the most iconic apocalyptic quartet, but outside of War, Conquest, Famine, and Death don't fit all that well.


I always thought it started with the four typical/generic roleplaying classes/races: Fighter, Dwarf (tough), Elf (fast), Wizard.
   
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Nottingham

 Talking Banana wrote:

Thanks for that - I had no idea Miller played a role in creating Nurgle.


From 'The Art of Ian Miller';

"This "God of Chaos" dates back to my short but fruitful period as an artist in the Games Workshop in the 1980s. The request I received was just a simple sentence - "We need a Chaos God". At that time, I only had a rough idea that the God of Chaos should be an image reminiscent of the end of the world and the plague. As long as within this framework, I have full freedom to construct my personal dream palace - a belly A demon with many faces emerged from the pool of blood and flesh surrounded by servants."

My copy is in Chinese (£50 brand new in Chinese, or £250 second hand from Ebay...) so Google translate has mixed up the syntax in places, but you get the gist. I think that he did khorne as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/07 20:16:58


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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

One other thing to consider is that way back in the early days, its my understanding that there weren't going to be 4 Chaos Gods. There were going to be many of them over the years and one or two even got partly fleshed out - Maal (spelling) got of Entropy (I think?) was one such god, but I believe back then GW didn't have the iron clad licences to content that they do now and the creator of that god left GW and took it with them - or otherwise GW lost the licence over that god.

At some point I think it was less "lets make 4" and more "lets use the 4 we've got" kind of discussion.


Heck we've seen AoS get a new Chaos God - Great Horned Rat - and 40K now has a forge demon who is likened to being almost as powerful as one of the great 4

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Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 Overread wrote:
One other thing to consider is that way back in the early days, its my understanding that there weren't going to be 4 Chaos Gods. There were going to be many of them over the years and one or two even got partly fleshed out - Maal (spelling) got of Entropy (I think?) was one such god, but I believe back then GW didn't have the iron clad licences to content that they do now and the creator of that god left GW and took it with them - or otherwise GW lost the licence over that god.

At some point I think it was less "lets make 4" and more "lets use the 4 we've got" kind of discussion.


Heck we've seen AoS get a new Chaos God - Great Horned Rat - and 40K now has a forge demon who is likened to being almost as powerful as one of the great 4


Yeah, Malal was the most prominent additional god (not exactly entropy, but more like Infighting), but there were others, like Necoho and Zuvassin (God of Atheism and God of Self-defeat/Unmaking), Kweethul Gristlegut (some sort of proto Horned Rat) and of course the Gods of Order like Solkan and Arianka. Originally, it was planned that the Warhammer theology and theogony would follow Moorcock much more closely, but various developments, conflicts between people and ultimately legal problems lead to the projects taking a much different direction pretty early on.

Also, by the sheer amount of concepts, it sounds like there was a lot of material about them and much was planned for them, but many of these gods only appeared in a single adventure for the WHFRPG and were never mentioned in an official product afterwards

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/07 20:30:51


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

To be fair its super easy to build a massive lore, its very different when suddenly you've got to make models for every single one and not drown yourself in so much stock that you can't produce it nor sell it

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I mean, at some point someone must have stumbled over the babylonian god of death and desease "Nergal" as an inspiration, but I'm not sure GW ever admitted stuff like that.
   
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Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 Overread wrote:
To be fair its super easy to build a massive lore, its very different when suddenly you've got to make models for every single one and not drown yourself in so much stock that you can't produce it nor sell it


Malal is the most suitable one for a wargame (a chaos god that preys on other chaos gods, with devotees who hunt other god's champions is a natural fit) but sadly also settled with enough legal trouble about who owns the concept, name and likeness that GW can only ever dance around it (with 'Malice' etc.). Necoho and Zuvassin had the more interesting concepts, but are more suited for an RPG: Necoho doesn't even want devotees and worshippers and has no demons, while Zuvassin can't really have them, because he unmakes armies, temples, weapons and bodies of his devotees as well.
   
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Necoho and Zuvassin were created because GW could not use Malal, the WFRP adventure they appeared in was supposed to feature Malal but had to be rewritten once he was off the table, hence them representing different aspects of "anti-chaos" like Malal - unbelief and undoing.

I think they might be mentioned in the appendix of the End and the Death, which would mark their only mention in 30k/40k (Kweethul too, who was originally just an example daemonic patron from Realms of Chaos, but is now implied to be the Horned Rat)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Charax absolutely nailed it.
 
   
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Charax wrote:
Necoho and Zuvassin were created because GW could not use Malal, the WFRP adventure they appeared in was supposed to feature Malal but had to be rewritten once he was off the table, hence them representing different aspects of "anti-chaos" like Malal - unbelief and undoing.

I think they might be mentioned in the appendix of the End and the Death, which would mark their only mention in 30k/40k (Kweethul too, who was originally just an example daemonic patron from Realms of Chaos, but is now implied to be the Horned Rat)


Kweethul gets mentioned in one of the Thanquol novels. He’s called out as a heretic god in competition with the Horned Rad (as an alternative ratman god).
   
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The Dark Imperium

Nurgle sort of reminds me of a cross between Tsathoggua and Abhoth.

   
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AZ

You spelled five wrong.



 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




There's a heavy mythological inspiration for Nurgle too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nergal

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/14 04:50:31


 
   
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The Dark Imperium

Well I assume the Old Ones were also inspired by HP And CAS so it follows the Chaos God were.

And beyond the real Nergal, I assumed the Old Ones were also inspired by Near Eastern mythos with the Anunnaki.

   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well….

Something happened which began to disturb the equilibrium of pre-Chaos warp space. The tides and eddies which could regenerate and reinvigorate a sufficiently powerful soul started shifting and changing.

It’s not clear what actually caused that - or even if the Chaos Gods existed then, either in their current forms but less powerful, or as perhaps more benevolent and balanced deities which became corrupted by the shift in warp tides etc as certain emotions began to dominate.

And even that stuff is of now questionable veracity, as it stems from the Realms of Chaos books.


They were asking about the creation process [doylist] of the Chaos Gods, not the in-universe fluff.

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Lord Zarkov wrote:
Charax wrote:
Necoho and Zuvassin were created because GW could not use Malal, the WFRP adventure they appeared in was supposed to feature Malal but had to be rewritten once he was off the table, hence them representing different aspects of "anti-chaos" like Malal - unbelief and undoing.

I think they might be mentioned in the appendix of the End and the Death, which would mark their only mention in 30k/40k (Kweethul too, who was originally just an example daemonic patron from Realms of Chaos, but is now implied to be the Horned Rat)


Kweethul gets mentioned in one of the Thanquol novels. He’s called out as a heretic god in competition with the Horned Rad (as an alternative ratman god).



Kweethul is a "create your own Chaos god" example from the Realms of Darkness: The Lost and the Damned. There were also greater and lesser daemons of Kweethul and daemonic beats of Kweethul. Basically the system involved rolling on random tables and then mashing the results together to create these daemons.
   
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Iracundus wrote:
Lord Zarkov wrote:
Charax wrote:
Necoho and Zuvassin were created because GW could not use Malal, the WFRP adventure they appeared in was supposed to feature Malal but had to be rewritten once he was off the table, hence them representing different aspects of "anti-chaos" like Malal - unbelief and undoing.

I think they might be mentioned in the appendix of the End and the Death, which would mark their only mention in 30k/40k (Kweethul too, who was originally just an example daemonic patron from Realms of Chaos, but is now implied to be the Horned Rat)


Kweethul gets mentioned in one of the Thanquol novels. He’s called out as a heretic god in competition with the Horned Rad (as an alternative ratman god).



Kweethul is a "create your own Chaos god" example from the Realms of Darkness: The Lost and the Damned. There were also greater and lesser daemons of Kweethul and daemonic beats of Kweethul. Basically the system involved rolling on random tables and then mashing the results together to create these daemons.


That’s where he originally came from yes. His new status as a patron for Skaven heretics is presumably because his original RoC incarnation was based on a Skaven template.

Was a cool nod though.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut





Texas

When it gets down to it, all the Chaos gods go back to the old Greek Alchemy philosophy of the 4/5 Elements.
Tzeentch is Air, hence his obsession with birds.
Khorne is Fire, being all red and having a propensity for molten bronze.(I think Khorne always sounded like Conan/ Robert E Howard's "Krom"- so may be an intentional rip-off.)
Slannesh is Water... because.. well: Fluids... Let's just end that comment there.
And Obvs, Nurgle is Earth because of his garden.

It just comes from a need for people to render a collection of thoughts into a familiar form.

As for Moorcock, I had the opportunity to read the first volume of the collected Elric, and loved it. Balo the Jester of the Courst of Chaos seemed VERY Tzeentch-ian, what with his trickery and ploys- not to mention his own self-defeating nature. He also wrote about how the Chaos and Order lords inhabited a higher strata of reality and they could only manifest a smaller version of themselves on lower planes- In one comic, Elric and himselves from other worlds (BC: Eternal Hero, same soul, etc..) run into Beelzebub, and they see a huge Fly. They get out of tehre by ascending to a higher plane- and the Fly is now something Giger would shudder about. Hence, it's like the Chaos gods: thier Daemons are smaller manifestations of themselves and look like them to varied degrees.



   
 
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