Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I had a final game with the Index. While I don't think the insights from this game will be all that relevant in a week with the new codex (I fully expect the Slaves to Darkness detachment to get some kind of nerf along with all the new detachments coming) here is it.

I play aginst Nids, and he brought the endless swarm. He had three big units of Hgaunts, and three of Tgaunts, plus a bunch of support monsters, venomthropes, and some psyker bugs. I had the list with the units below. I won the game 69 to 55. I killed something like 160 little bugs between the big units and all the ones he brought back. Playing a hoard list like this really makes you have to change your play style. I only put one unit in deepstrike as I felt I needed all the firepower on the board to chew though the bugs. This was the correct tactic as I was able to do some heavy damage to him early. Also, his list is clearly build to aggressively push to the middle and swam primary. In order to win I counter pushed in the middle early with some of my heavy hitters. This kind of put him on the back foot. Also, the charge from the 20 man unit of Hgaunts with 60 attacks, with [Sustained Hits], and crit on 5's with a strat can be pretty devastating into anything that doesn't have a T6 or higher, or a 2+ save. Here are the individual unit breakdowns:

20 man Cultist with dark commune- I still love this unit, but we will see when (if) they lose the crits on 5+ for [Lethal Hits]. In this game I started them on the board, which I rarely do, but I did so to get their shooting earlier. They ended up fighting in the backfield the whole game due to his deepstrike gargoyles, then the respawned gaunts. They did a nice job of killing the gaunts, who are the perfect target for them. Also sticky objective is really good.

10 man possessed with master of possession - I ran them as slannesh this game and man that was crazy good. This unit is so fast with advance and charge from the strat with the 9' move plus the bonus from the MoP. They charged directly into the center of his army and killed a bunch of Hguants, then tired up another couple units. He just could not bring them down with the T6, 3+, 5++ and then 6+++ (I rolled triple 6 on one of the damage three weapon hits which was money). Quite frankly unless there are big changes in the codex, expect these guys to go up in points, as I think you will be seeing them in a lot of lists, at least one unit with an MoP depending on support from the codex.

2 x 5 man warptalons - These guys are just blenders as long as you can get them into combat, which can be tricky as they are a bit fragile, and unlike legionaries, they are top targets. But they have to be dealt with so even just 5 puts a lot of pressure on your opponent, which takes the heat of some of the other units. I really really hope they can be lead by the lord with jump pack in the new codex.

2 x Vindicators - These are great now, at least in the slaves to darkness detachment. The 175 really makes them competitive with the forgefiend, which has better offense, but is more expensive, and less tough. The d6 damage is a bit swing-y, but these guys can really hurt big units. Again lets see the support in the new detachments, but right now I am liking this unit.

2 x obliterators - I started these guys on the field, which was good as they one shot his mommy bug on turn one (although that was pretty lucky). Their blast shots also came in handy against all of the bugs. They are so slow though if you don't deep strike them and with the limited range that can hurt. I am still not sure about 2 v 4 and/or deep strike v. start on table. With the new codex all of this will change, so we will see.

10 x legionary squad - So with the points change I was able to upgrade the 10 man tratior guardsmen to a 10 man legionary squad. I went Tzeentch and I was really happy with how they preformed. Due to the amount of other threats I had my opponent did not focus anything to powerful on these guys, and in that situation they are pretty tough. They have quit a few bolter shots, and I was a bit cheeky as I brought a chain gun as I know my opponent owes nids, guard, orks, and SM, so I figured it was likely to be usable (he knew exactly which faction I was bringing by the way). The [Lethal Hits] really do help the bolters out, and these guys did a good job skirmishing over the middle left objective. I think 80 points for 5 (160 for 10) makes them attractive for a single unit to hold the back line, compared to cultists, but I still don't think I would build an army around multiple units, codex depending of course.

2 x venomcrawlers - These are good little distraction units, nothing crazy good, but not crap either. The points cut helped, still think these are just kind of mid-tier units and if I was going full competitive I would probably bring something else.

5 man terminators lead by a Sorcerer - So I brought these guys as Tzeentch, and started them on the table due to the number of bugs I was fighting. They kind of were out of position, and their slow move hurt them trying to get into a better position. Ultimately they took the mid objectives for me and killed some little bugs, but I never really got a chance to use the sorcerer ability to increase ap, and never needed to re-roll a charge as the only one they needed was close. I like these guys, but I think possessed or chosen are better unless deep striking or taking Abaddon, again codex pending.

5 man raptor squad - These guys deep strike in the far corner to do investigate, then just harassed the backfield. They did not do much damage, but did score 2 points and he had to put a unit back to make sure to protect his home objective due to these guys, so they did their job.

So that was my final splash with the Slaves to Darkness index. I can't wait for the codex, not because I believe it will be better, personally I think the Slaves to Darkness is either getting nerfed or basically removed (same name different abilities like the Custodies detachment) as it is pretty powerful and it would be hard to imagine any detachment that could compete.

For the codex we know we are losing three units (49 currently, but 48 in the GW post). Two of those will be noise marines and Lucious (going to EC index) so that leaves one as they are adding two new data sheets, Lord with JP and Firebrand. I think it will be either the crown or Huron, outside shot it is the champion. But that is not bad as I could see losing all three of those, and maybe bikes (how do they still not have a kit!?!?!), so I count us lucky if that holds.

It seems that there will be "elite force of hate-fuelled Astartes, a horde of deranged cultists, or degenerate mobs of daemon-touched monsters", plus the Vashtorr one mentioned before, which is probably daemon engines. I am excited for a Lost and the Damned style detachment, especially if we can use any IG datasheets with it as allies. I also am intrigued by the daemon touch monsters, which will probably be possessed, warptalons etc. With 8 detachments at least one or two should be good right? But ultimatly the #1 thing I am hoping for his the Lord with JP being able to lead warptalons, Please Please Please.

Sadly, I agree. We'll get a new way to play but I anticipate the fun will be muted from the faction.

I think we'll see a significant nerf to the slaves to darkness detachment too.

I really do enjoy playing Slaves to Darkness as I actually think that, as a detachment, its reasonably balanced overall. We deal solid damage on units that are not glass cannon but not tanky and have a few defensive strats that work well when times well. It's really the internal balance of the codex that suffers with some units just being overcosted (Lord Discordant and Defilers) or simply not bringing anything dramatic/noteable to justify their use despite promise (Daemon Princes and many of our non-named characters).

I think you could make some equally competitive detachments focused on different things. For example, one that benefits daemonkin with things like better synergy with daemons of their Gods and some resilience like the green tide detachment such as re-rolling 1's on invulnerable saves or even re-rolling charges when in the shadow of chaos. Similarly something with daemon engines to give increased reliability rather than damage output or speed would be easily doable.

I am keen to see how the new elite detachment works though. That has promise if its anything like the custodes her-hammer detachment but for a veterans of the long war themed list rather than hero-hammering.

Finally, I will keep trying to hold my breath about it but I do have some concern for Abaddon. The nerf to the strat regen and the fact he has seemingly lost the mark of chaos ascendant are disappointing. I can only hope it perhaps justifies a significantly reduced point cost, bringing him down to 200ish mark rather than that spenny 310 he is atm.

Hey guys, I'm just popping in here to ask if you think it would be worthwhile to get one of the new boxes that are coming out. All I currently have is a basic CSM box. I've been leaning toward a start collecting box, and the veterans of the long war box.

I was kinda wanting to start a chaos army, specifically word bearers since my first and biggest army is Ultramarines. I also like the idea of summoning demons and having possed

I'm not really sure where to start and it was these guys or orks, but I don't really wanna start a horde army.

The Veterans of the Long War box will be a solid place to start tbh, if I were starting afresh and had to pick one, i'd go for that.

It's hard to predict without seeing the new rules first but that box is probably a solid place to be. A word bearers focused list could benefit from any of them though, if you did have a more limited budget etc.

To answer above, if I was starting out a CSM army the Veteran's of the Long war box would be a must. I would also get the combat patrol box as well, which would then give you 10 terminators, 20 legionaries, 10 possessed, 5 chosen, 10 cultists, a lord and a MOP which is a solid start. Also I would pick up two of the venomcrawler/obliterator kits (which are actually a pretty good price point for what you get) so you have two venom crawlers and 4 obliterators. That would be a solid start and I think it is about 1850 to 1900 points in the current codex, so a safe bet to be 2000 even if they raise the points on some stuff. If you have the cash and can get it I would also get the Dread Talon box (but secondary to the above) as that would give you a lot of units to make multiple builds. Both army boxes are pretty solid for 10th edition discounts, so those are highly recommended, and most of the models in these should be at least decent with most rules iterations as they are core type units. You could then wait for the Dex and see if anything stands out for individual purchases like a Land Raider or any daemon engines.

Also everyone here is the preview: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/05/07/what-can-the-new-codex-chaos-space-marines-detachments-do-for-you/

First impressions:

The good: Got to like 8 detachments as that is plenty of options. It also looks like there is a nice spread of detachments with much different play styles. The renegade raiders rule seems pretty cool, and the two strats for the Veterans of the Long War detachment are both solid. I can't wait to see the detachment rule for that and if it is good, I am betting that will end up being the top dog detachment.

The bad: its early but masters of misdirection seems a bit limited, and is either going to be epic with turn 1 charges, or total fail with being charged turn 1. Also as for the Pactbound Zealots.*** (*** To better reflect their Marks of Chaos ability. aka GW for nerfed).

The ugly: Looking at the Chaos Cult detachment focus on CC, and based on the firebrand being moved to a stand alone and the others being no longer sold, with the only cultists having CC weapons it is clearly looking that we are losing ranged options for cultists. Now losing the special weapons would be bothersome but fine, Sh**t happens. But losing all ranged options? That just sucks. Guess we had to take it in the nads for something. I hope there are legends rules, because I use legends so I am using mine with auto rifles. I never thought I would hope for new cultist models, lol.

I'm withholding judgement till I see the EC index....
But it looks like my Flawless Host will be subsumed by the legion proper at this rate.

I'm glad the only person I play 40k with doesn't care if I do stuff like keep ranged stuff on cultists.

It appears that they want to break up the CC/ranged cultist. Have shooting be from traitor guard and trad cults just be melee.

Thanks for the advice guys!

Only thing I was iffy about with the VotlW box was the viability of the chaos terminators. I'll pick that one up for sure, and grab a start collecting box later down the line!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/05/09/screaming-in-from-above-how-to-turn-the-dread-talons-battleforce-into-a-fast-and-ferocious-army/

So confirmed no JP lord with warp talons.

Confirmed cultist only with cc weapons

Confirmed dread talon detachment is battle shock BS trash.

Yeaaaaaaaas

The lord restrictions just piss me right the fu off.

Like they couldn't even TRY even if they tried

Racerguy180 wrote:
The lord restrictions just piss me right the fu off.

Like they couldn't even TRY even if they tried

Lore wise, Warp talons are feral dudes that barely fit into warbands, theyre basically just pointed in the general direction of their enemies and then go ham. I can kinda see why they wouldnt be able to be led by a character.

Just wait till there's a named warp talon and all of the sudden....they can be led.

It's arbitrary and lame.

Racerguy180 wrote:
Just wait till there's a named warp talon and all of the sudden....they can be led.

It's arbitrary and lame.

well yeah... because that theoretical named warp talon would still be... a warp talon

That’s kind the thing though, isn’t it? Whether you wanted your lord to be a feral warp talon, an arrogant terminator on the cusp of princedom, or a plotting underling of abandon.. you used to be able to make characters whatever you wanted.

Now you can’t. If you want something it’d better be something GW makes a specific model for, and if not you can kick rocks and take one of the couple of templates they give you.

How would a feral warp talon become a chaos lord? A barely animalistic intelligence wouldn't have the ability to lead anybody except his specific pack of warp talons.

It’s all leaked, ran a few numbers
Pactbound Zealots are nerfed hard. Mark bonuses now only apply if Pact roll succeeds. (Major hit for units unable to take Icons)

Eye of Tzeentch is nerfed hard. Used to proc on Ld (83.3% on a DA), now it's by getting 8+ on Pact roll (41.7%). Wow. If you use an Icon to reroll everything below 8, your EoT success rate is 66.0%. If you use an Icon to reroll only if you fail a Ld6 Pact, your EoT success rate is 59.1%

Talisman of Burning Blood, Orbs of Unlife, and Elixir BS test are nerfed, only work if Pact roll succeeds.

Liber Hereticus is gone. RIP Lorgarian polytheism

Infernal Rites is buffed, moved to other Detachments but cut to 1CP.

Swiftness is nerfed, lost fall back and shoot for non-Slaanesh.

Eye of the Gods is back, mortal heroes can get +1MSTWAD if they “destroy an enemy unit”. (Does this proc if you kill a character with precision whilst their bodyguard unit survives?) Fist jump lord could potentially pop this two or three times in a game. MoP has modest potential if his unit can survive. Terminator hero will love gaining +1M, it increases his unit’s reach.

https://youtu.be/B-NttHuf-io?si=cmgOpLHZn8Knzhna

Nice cover of changes. Iron warrior and black legion (don’t remember exact names) look really good. Vashtor could be great if build around.

Oblits down to two only sucks but livable.

Warp talons busted. That will get FAQ.

Vashtor looking powerful.

So am I correct in reading that, outside of one detachment, marks mean nothing anymore?

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
So am I correct in reading that, outside of one detachment, marks mean nothing anymore?

It reads to me that outside of one detachment, Marks don't even exist.

Is that better or worse than being keywords that only unlocked Stratagems?

As a Night Lords player, I can do without them. Hell, I don't like that our army rule is about asking the gods for help. But that's a me thing I guess.

Having gone over a couple of reviews, I have to wonder:

Am I the only one who thinks the CSM kicked the codex writer's puppy?

I am very disappointed with the cult detachment. That was the one I was most excited for but between the crap rules and removing ranged cultists and no guard allies like brood brothers. I am like meh.

Some of the other detachments look cool though. And veterans is gonna be fire.

Are the KT Traitor Guard not in the book?

 Gert wrote:
Are the KT Traitor Guard not in the book?

They are. But you can’t use guard vehicles etc to make a traitor guard force.

That's to be expected but I was worried the KT had been left out randomly.

The codex as a whole is kinda meh, because there are more datasheets that were nerfed than datasheets that were made interesting to play. That kinda hurts.
The detachments otoh are... Well, it's mostly adapting the rules of 9th to 10th, so it couldn't be a complete miss. But even if there's the flavor, there's a lot of weak stuff in there, so gravity will take all but the most dedicated veterans toward the most powerful one(e).
I personally find Renegade Raiders insanely good, all rules or options seem useful.

I really wanted the chaos cultist warband box, was waiting for it to come back in stock forever it felt like.
Now it’s gone, and EBay prices are insane for the box.
Looking at the cultist rules, but it isn’t getting me so excited to get my chaos army into 10th.

I actually like what I see. I don’t think any of the nerfs are that bad and I think all the detachments are useable bar cultist. I really hate the loss of ranged on them. But renegades will be really good especially with abandon leading chosen. I think veterans and iron warriors are sneaky good. The daemon engine one is really good if you build for it. Alpha legion one is good and fluffy. The dread talons is a bit meh but that is a problem with core rule battle shock. Overall I am happy especially after living through codex in 4 6 8 which were all sub par. This is probably the best for CSM since 3.5

I'm content with the book...

The Daemon Engine detachment looks fun and like it could actually hold its own. Can't wait to try that out.

Zealots and Raiders are both really solid options without a doubt and where i'll go for competitive builds.

Defilers and Warp Talons got interesting buffs, which is good. Abaddon leading Chosen is long overdue and good to see.

I was somewhat disappointed to see some nerfs though, more so as I don't really understand the intention behind the moves.

Master of Possession and the Possessed taking hits is a bit crap as with only -1 ap they really relied on devs to punch up. Where do Possessed even sit within the codex now? They can't shoot, they've kind of been relegated to scavengers or light infantry blenders who might get lucky against a harder target once or twice a game if they use their one-off special ability. Probably would have been better just to make them like forgefiends and have them become hazardous but can use it whenever.

Despite being able to now lead Chosen, I am still a bit miffed about Abaddon losing the Mark of Chaos Ascendant too, purely because it just doesn't really fit other than to make you not just only include him in the zealots detachment I guess? Or not have 10 Chosen benefit from the 5+'s in that detachment. Or stop a conflict with the no tzeentch rule? Just a bit weird as you can't even defend it as a "he only uses Chaos and doesn't worship them" because he's still got the undivided key word, not to mention there's the new gaping hole where he's supposedly blessed by all four of them or are we moving away from that?

Obliterator and venomcrawler changes I am not too bothered by and sort of make sense.

I can only hope they get very good point changes to reflect the nerfs.

I can't wait for tomorrow's Goonhammer review of the Crusade content. They've got reviews up for the book and each of its detachments.

Rumour is that the Crusade content hasn't changed much, but the Goons get pretty specific in their reviews.

I might end up buying this dex. It will be only my 2nd of the edition, and I likely would not have sprung for the Tau dex, but it came with the Kroot box.