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As you left the Noctolith Crown of your worst units list I can't take your opinions seriously.

Other than a handful of "meh" 6" shots & providing cover? The only thing this thing does is make it easier for your opponent to beat you as you were dumb enough to waste points on it.

And a 4+ Invuln for nearby units.
That’s not bad for backfield units.

 JNAProductions wrote:
And a 4+ Invuln for nearby units.
That’s not bad for backfield units.

Your right, it's not nothing.

But it's also not enough to elevate the thing from being the worst unit either.
Even the poor Helldrake is more usefull....

ccs wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
And a 4+ Invuln for nearby units.
That’s not bad for backfield units.

Your right, it's not nothing.

But it's also not enough to elevate the thing from being the worst unit either.
Even the poor Helldrake is more usefull....

I like the Noctilith better than the Helldrake, assuming you can get it near an objective. Its got "better" shooting that a Loyalist Libby which also provides a 4++. Its not as good as a Hammerfall Bunker, but its not horrible.

ccs wrote:
As you left the Noctolith Crown of your worst units list I can't take your opinions seriously.

Other than a handful of "meh" 6" shots & providing cover? The only thing this thing does is make it easier for your opponent to beat you as you were dumb enough to waste points on it.

LOL, yea that unit is so bad I forgot it even existed

Here is a list I am going to try out. I am purposefully trying to stay away from the usual suspects like Abbadon w/Termies, Chosen, and Forgefiends. The point of the list is to go aggressively into the center to take primaries. The Vindicators can put out some serious (if swing-y) damage, and I like the duel threat of the venom crawlers. The core of the list is the possessed and the obliterators, who will start on the board, or deepstrike as needed depending on whom I am facing. As usual I love to have the big block of 20 cultists with the Dark Commune in reserve and appear on a flank later in the game. Tzeentch on them lets them punch up with just sheer weight of fire against everything that is not 2+ save.

I mean the Daemon prince is probably dead weight and points could be better used else where, but I like the model I have.

Let me know what you all think.


CSM (2000 Points)

Chaos Space Marines
Slaves to Darkness
Strike Force (2000 Points)

CHARACTERS

Dark Commune (65 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
• 1x Cult Demagogue
• 1x Autopistol
1x Commune stave
• 1x Mindwitch
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Warp Curse
• 1x Iconarch
• 1x Autopistol
1x Chaos Icon
1x Close combat weapon
• 2x Blessed Blade
• 2x Commune blade

Heretic Astartes Daemon Prince with Wings (195 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
• 1x Hellforged weapons
1x Infernal cannon

Master of Possession (80 Points)
• Warlord
• Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Rite of Possession
1x Staff of possession

BATTLELINE

Cultist Mob (110 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Cultist firearm
• 19x Chaos Cultist
• 15x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
15x Cultist firearm
2x Cultist grenade launcher
2x Heavy stubber

OTHER DATASHEETS

Chaos Vindicator (190 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 1x Armoured tracks
1x Demolisher cannon

Chaos Vindicator (190 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 1x Armoured tracks
1x Demolisher cannon

Obliterators (360 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 4x Obliterator
• 4x Crushing fists
4x Fleshmetal guns

Possessed (280 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided
• 1x Possessed Champion
• 1x Hideous mutations
• 9x Possessed
• 1x Chaos Icon
9x Hideous mutations

Traitor Guardsmen Squad (70 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
• 1x Traitor Sergeant
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Corrupted pistol
• 9x Traitor Guardsmen
• 9x Close combat weapon
6x Lasgun
1x Meltagun
2x Plasma gun

Venomcrawler (120 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 2x Excruciator cannon
1x Soulflayer tendrils and claws

Venomcrawler (120 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 2x Excruciator cannon
1x Soulflayer tendrils and claws

Warp Talons (110 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
• 1x Warp Talon Champion
• 1x Warp claws
• 4x Warp Talon
• 4x Warp claws

Warp Talons (110 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
• 1x Warp Talon Champion
• 1x Warp claws
• 4x Warp Talon
• 4x Warp claws

Death to the false emperor! Death to the Imperium! Let the Galaxy Burn!!

Has anyone run Haarken + 10x Raptors? I like the threat potential, especially when used with Rapid Ingress but I'm looking for some real world experience.

Kangarupe wrote:
Has anyone run Haarken + 10x Raptors? I like the threat potential, especially when used with Rapid Ingress but I'm looking for some real world experience.

Generally I'm not a fan of Rapid Ingress with punchers - unless those punchers are slow like Terminators but rarely even then. You have to drop, stand there and get shot at then potentially charged. To me, Rapid Ingress for a beefed up Shootinator/etc (Exploding 6's, increased crit, etc). I'd rather land within 9 and have a 40/60'ish chance to charge than land within 3" and have 0 Chance. But to each their own.

So had a game on Saturday against my buddies DA force using the list in the above post. His was a green wing using the Imperial Fist detachment, with a balistas dread, supporting tech marine, two 10 man hellblasters one lead by a Lt and one by Azeral, 6 man eradicators, 2 x 10 Intercessors, a Lancer, and a large 10 man terminator brick lead by Belial. He is moving so he kind of just used what was not packed. I dominated the front end of the game, but he came back hard at the end when I ran out of steam and failed to finish some key units. I made a mistake with my cultists on how I deployed them which hurt. It was a good game and goes to show you shouldn't quit turn 2 if things are looking down. Here is the breakdown of how the units preformed.

Heretic Astartes Daemon Prince with Wings - He is by far the weakest link in this list. He is just two expensive for what he does as he could not even eliminate a hellblaster unit who then fell back and shot with a strat and wasted him. He really needs ap-3 on his big swing and ap -1 on the sweep so his shots don't just bounce, or needs to be like 20 points cheaper. I am removing him from the list for my next match as I am changing up the list a bit to try some new things.

Dark Commune/20 xCultist Mob- Like I said above, I really did not use these guys right this game. I usually come in on a flank and hold a middle objective, but I thought I would get cute and wait a turn and send them in the rear. However, I did such a good job of pinning my opponent into his own deplyment zone early, I basically screened them out and they had to come in too far from the home objective. If I would have come in turn 2 on the flank instead I would have controlled an objective there longer and probably did some better damage to some of the hell blasters or intercessors on that flank. They also kind of whiffed on their shots as I rolled very poorly not getting many [Lethal Hits] which they rely on to do damage.

2 x Chaos Vindicators- These tanks are pretty good with CSM with all the stacking [Sustained Hits] on 5's. I mean they are still about 15 points to much and if you are going hyper competitive the Forgefiends are better for only 10 points more. They are pretty survivable with the 2+ save, but dedicated AT will take them down (that is true of most things in the game however). I like them and I am going to stick with them for now.

4 x Obliterators - This unit drives me crazy in if it should be nurgle or tzeentch (for resurrecting). This game I went nurgle, as the last two games they got wiped prior to being able to resurrect, then this game I would have been able to bring back 3 of them which would have made a huge difference in the game. So I don't know what is better, what do people think. Next game I am striking them down to 2 so definitely nurgle then as the [Sustained Hits] on the big shots is really helpful and with only two they are probably not going to be in a position to be resurrected.

Master of Possession/ 10 x Possessed - These guys do what they do and killed Azerial's squad, then did some damage but ultimately just got gunned down via concentrated fire. I do like these guys a lot and will continue using them.

10 xTraitor Guardsmen Squad - they sat in the back behind a wall and held my home objective. While I love the models and concept, I think cultists with sticky objective and 15 points less are just better at the sit back and hold position.

2 x Venomcrawlers - These guys did alright. They really can't hurt heavy armor really well due to -1 ap, but kill infantry pretty well. Overall they are probably not the most competitive unit, but I like them and at 120 they are reasonably cheap.

2 x 5 x Warp Talons - I love this unit. It is so good at moving up the field and harrassing infantry units, or doing secondaries. It is pretty squishy though, but most stuff in the game is. I think they are costed just right. I am really hoping the new codex has a jump lord and he can lead them as 10 with a support character would be awesome (assuming they stay the same cost).

I plan on removing the DP and two obliterators, to add a 5 man terminator squad with a sorcerer and a 5 man raptor squad with plasma.

Death to the false emperor! Death to the Imperium! Let the Galaxy Burn!!

I’m pretty sure a lot of these indexes were allowed to be messy for tenth to get people chomping at the bit for a codex.

CSM just had some new cultists models and demon Prince model and were bulked out with the kill team units. Thus CSM we’re easy to make a mess of

 xeen wrote:

So just to keep the conversation going on this tread so it doesn't become to buried, what are people's opinions of the WORST three units in the index?

My choices are as follows:

1. Traitor Enforcer + Ogryn. Agreed, he's a fun unit to mix with traitor guardsmen from a fluff standpoint but he's extremely overcosted and doesn't bring a ton of value to the Guardsmen. I'm also not a big fan of "Character" units with more than one character, it's a messy section of the rules IMO.

2. Yeah, Discolord seems destined to be underperforming and overcosted this edition. Shame it's such a great model.

3. Beastmen. I like the models but have never used them outside of using the 9th BSF versions once.

4. I think the Helldrake has some utility by forcing your opponent to deal with it Round 1 (or later if you go the aircraft route instead of Hover). Flying it up the board to burn a weak target in Turn 1, then forcing them to shoot it out of the sky rather than deal with Overwatch is an option. As you mentioned it's an expensive gambit though.

5. I'm also really looking forward to a new Jump Lord. Fingers crossed they don't screw it up by refusing to let it pair with Warp Talons / Raptors.


Thanks for sharing your list, I've been curious how tanks compare to Forgefiends. I feel the same way about Traitor Guardsmen, I love the models and the loadouts are nice but compared to sticky objective cultists they feel like a waste and if you're worried about your opponent DS in your homefield the Traitor Guardsmen aren't durable enough to put up much of a defense. For Obliterators I usually lean towards Tzeentch for revive + heal, but I also wait to drop mine till Round 3 usually in an area where they will be harder to see to so mass fire can't shoot them off the board.

Breton wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:
Has anyone run Haarken + 10x Raptors? I like the threat potential, especially when used with Rapid Ingress but I'm looking for some real world experience.

Generally I'm not a fan of Rapid Ingress with punchers - unless those punchers are slow like Terminators but rarely even then. You have to drop, stand there and get shot at then potentially charged. To me, Rapid Ingress for a beefed up Shootinator/etc (Exploding 6's, increased crit, etc). I'd rather land within 9 and have a 40/60'ish chance to charge than land within 3" and have 0 Chance. But to each their own.

huh? The whole point of rapid ingress is that you can pick a safe spot to deepstrike, you don't rapid ingress them exactly 9" away, in the open....

With raptors, you can drop them behind a building pretty damn far away and then move->shoot->charge in your turn.... (18" away from the enemy still leaves you with only a 6" charge for example)

oh and a 9" charge is only a 48% chance to success WITH A REROLL

Heldrake’s really hurt by the aircraft rules conferring zero survivability and forcing you to choose to fly or hover for the whole game. Like what is even the point of being a transformer if you’re not allowed to change modes. If you could zoom one turn to avoid fire then dive and stomp the next it’d be sweet


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also zooming aircraft steering at the end of their move and not even being able to charge other aircraft means it simply does not perform its supposed purpose of airborne predator at all. It’s just a faster daemon prince. If the codex replaces its special rule with steer before zooming and able charge units that can fly, it’ll return to form.

He back baby


Also the fact that there are two new box sets and a new combat patrol but no new bikes in either makes me worried that there will not be new bikes again. Maybe they will be a stand alone, fingers crossed

There'll be bikes...in the 11th ed chaos box. Right before EC are "gutted" I mean Coedxified

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Breton wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:
Has anyone run Haarken + 10x Raptors? I like the threat potential, especially when used with Rapid Ingress but I'm looking for some real world experience.

Generally I'm not a fan of Rapid Ingress with punchers - unless those punchers are slow like Terminators but rarely even then. You have to drop, stand there and get shot at then potentially charged. To me, Rapid Ingress for a beefed up Shootinator/etc (Exploding 6's, increased crit, etc). I'd rather land within 9 and have a 40/60'ish chance to charge than land within 3" and have 0 Chance. But to each their own.

huh? The whole point of rapid ingress is that you can pick a safe spot to deepstrike, you don't rapid ingress them exactly 9" away, in the open....

With raptors, you can drop them behind a building pretty damn far away and then move->shoot->charge in your turn.... (18" away from the enemy still leaves you with only a 6" charge for example)

oh and a 9" charge is only a 48% chance to success WITH A REROLL

Yeah, I was certainly thinking of a safe drop when I asked. Haarken's "Head Taker" ability is almost like a freebie grenade/tank shock. Add on the fact that he's got a fairly decent precision attack + the 4 meltas you can take and you've got aa pretty useful anti-elite, anti-vehicle bodyguard squad with really great mobility for secondaries.

I’m painting a Tzeentch Rhino and got a Nurgle one in the works. Any tips on putting a squad in there and driving around doing dark pacts whilst the tank uses two of their guns? I’m thinking taking a Havoc and a Heretac unit with the same mark and playing a little musical chairs, if one or two members of a squad are all that’s left after a turn then they can just load up and be a mini predator

 lindsay40k wrote:
I’m painting a Tzeentch Rhino and got a Nurgle one in the works. Any tips on putting a squad in there and driving around doing dark pacts whilst the tank uses two of their guns? I’m thinking taking a Havoc and a Heretac unit with the same mark and playing a little musical chairs, if one or two members of a squad are all that’s left after a turn then they can just load up and be a mini predator

Poor allocation of points in my opinion. Havocs should be in the backfield hammering your hardest targets. Rhino better served transporting ol’ faithful: 5x chosen + lord. Let that little murder group deal with tough enemies and have the rhino hang back on empty objectives. …in my humble opinion.

 lindsay40k wrote:
I’m painting a Tzeentch Rhino and got a Nurgle one in the works. Any tips on putting a squad in there and driving around doing dark pacts whilst the tank uses two of their guns? I’m thinking taking a Havoc and a Heretac unit with the same mark and playing a little musical chairs, if one or two members of a squad are all that’s left after a turn then they can just load up and be a mini predator

I personally have benched my havocs after a few games of failing lascannons rolls over and over.

It wouldn't be a super efficient use of points but a Rhino full of reaper chaincannon havocs could make for some fun dakka

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
I’m painting a Tzeentch Rhino and got a Nurgle one in the works. Any tips on putting a squad in there and driving around doing dark pacts whilst the tank uses two of their guns? I’m thinking taking a Havoc and a Heretac unit with the same mark and playing a little musical chairs, if one or two members of a squad are all that’s left after a turn then they can just load up and be a mini predator

I personally have benched my havocs after a few games of failing lascannons rolls over and over.

It wouldn't be a super efficient use of points but a Rhino full of reaper chaincannon havocs could make for some fun dakka

meanwhile, i'm probably the one stealing all your luck, my havoc lascannons have been absolutely tearing it up, to the point where i've started overwatching with them too

I'm so envious of your luck

Tzeentch giveth, and Tzeentch taketh

By the way, folks, did some mathhammer recently: if you boost meltaguns with helbrute aura and Tzeentch or Nurgle prayers, they become 250% as effective against T10-16. There’s quite a spread, so it’s not that noticeable on a lone Legionary, but a Raptor squad with four gunners does feel the benefit.

So I am going to try to get a game in this weekend or next and wanted to try something a little different. I am going to use the same list above, but took out 2 obliterators and the dead weight Daemon Prince, and added 5 raptors with plasma, 5 terminators and a terminator sorcerer which is what I want to discuss in this post.

The times I take the 5 man terminators I usually take them as slannesh for the [Sustained Hits] in close combat and potential advance and charge. However I noticed something the last couple games with them. I deepstrike them, so never really need the advance and charge, which is usually used on the warptalons anyway. Also in CC, the 5 man is not really powerful enough to go toe to toe against any real melee threat, but on the other hand, the [Sustained Hits] in CC was usually overkill on most of the backfield units they were fighting. So this time I am going to try something new, taking them with Mark of Tzeentch. I have discovered with my large Tzeentch cultist unit that massed 5+ [Lethal Hits] can really do some work against anything that is not 2+. The terminator squad is still putting out 20 shots (with the sorcerer), and they get to re-roll hits so can fish for [Lethal Hits]. It gives the reaper cannon both [Sustained Hits] and [Lethal Hits]. Also the sorcerer has an ability to put on an enemy unit that makes all shots against that unit an additional point of AP. -1 AP with the [Lethal Hits] seems like it could do some damage to most backfield type units. Also, then with the sorcerer, I can charge a different target and re-roll the charge. So really making them a huge distraction in the backfield. Also as a bonus, the Tzeentch strat can allow me to bring a terminator back each turn if they take any casualties. I think this might be a reasonable use for the 5 man terminator unit with the index.

Hopefully we get some good detachments that shake up play styles in the closely approaching codex. I really hope there is a lost and the damned style detachment rule. That would be awesome.

Let me know what you guys think.

Kangarupe wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Breton wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:
Has anyone run Haarken + 10x Raptors? I like the threat potential, especially when used with Rapid Ingress but I'm looking for some real world experience.

Generally I'm not a fan of Rapid Ingress with punchers - unless those punchers are slow like Terminators but rarely even then. You have to drop, stand there and get shot at then potentially charged. To me, Rapid Ingress for a beefed up Shootinator/etc (Exploding 6's, increased crit, etc). I'd rather land within 9 and have a 40/60'ish chance to charge than land within 3" and have 0 Chance. But to each their own.

huh? The whole point of rapid ingress is that you can pick a safe spot to deepstrike, you don't rapid ingress them exactly 9" away, in the open....

With raptors, you can drop them behind a building pretty damn far away and then move->shoot->charge in your turn.... (18" away from the enemy still leaves you with only a 6" charge for example)

oh and a 9" charge is only a 48% chance to success WITH A REROLL

Yeah, I was certainly thinking of a safe drop when I asked. Haarken's "Head Taker" ability is almost like a freebie grenade/tank shock. Add on the fact that he's got a fairly decent precision attack + the 4 meltas you can take and you've got aa pretty useful anti-elite, anti-vehicle bodyguard squad with really great mobility for secondaries.

That and the MW's on the charge ontop of the anti-chaff melee makes them a pretty good all-rounder unit. Maybe Raptors will get some time in the spotlight along next to their Warp Talon brothers with the Jump-pack Lord making his glorious return. But even with just Haarken as their choice of leader, they can put in some work. The forced battleshock tests can be potentially useful too since it makes the entire unit OC 0 which can be used to steal an objective, forces Desperate Escape tests when falling back which is brutal when fighting a melee unit and stops strategems from being used on the unit which is especially useful against an unit that is important. Plus, Raptors are honestly just a pretty cool unit. Always love seeing em be played.

Just reviewed all our points changes, all reductions. My list, as I used a lot of the units getting reductions, when down almost 100 points!

So on the units that I use here are some thoughts.......

First this is how a good update to points should be, nerf the really ridiculous stuff, but reductions on the stuff that is not used. I think they did a good job with that here for Chaos, as after the last nerfs we did not have anything to out of control, but did need some internal balancing.

Units:
Terminators - down 10 per 5. I think this is a big deal and a bit surprising. These were good already with Ababdon , and I think there is more room to bring a 5 man back field annoyance unit. Chosen are probably still better, but I am happy with this.

Vindicator - down 15. This is what I have been saying should have been their cost months ago. At 175 it makes them really interesting v. forgefiend for fire support. The forgefiend is probably still better to bring at least one (for abusing the strat to re-roll wounds) but I think you could replace second one with a Vindicator now and get some more durability and pretty much equivalent AT fire power with nurgle. As I was running two of these in my current list I am very happy with this.

Cultists - down 5 per 10. Again I use a big squad of these lead by dark commune so saving 10 points here was big for me. This move kind of hurts the legionaries going down, and now these guys really out compete the traitor guardsmen.

Possessed - down 10 per 5. These are now the same price as chosen, and quite frankly compete really well now. They move faster (so no need for rhino) are tougher, have 5++ and the same attacks. They lose some shooting, and their attack is -1 instead of -2 in CC, but the possessed have [Devastating Wounds] and 2 damage. I think you will see more of these guys on the field now, and quite frankly enjoy while it lasts as I feel they will be back up to 135/140 on the next pass, unless massively changed in codex.

Raptors- down 5 per 5. Saving 5 points on a back field annoying unit. Always helpful, but I still don't think these guys are nearly as good as warptalons.

Venomcrawler- down 10. This unit was not setting the world on fire, but it pretty solid in casual games. They are probably still a bit to much for what they actually do, but any decrease is welcome.

Units I don't use as much
The havocs, hellbuture, bikes and maulerfiend are all down. The only one of these I find interesting is maybe the havocs, and maybe the hellbrute. The havocs are still a bit flimsy for their points investment, and the hellbrute is good, but I find the having both [Sustained Hits] and [Lethal Hits] to just be overkill in most circumstances and the hellbuture doesn't bring a lot of its own power.

The Daemon Princes - these got a nice reduction, but I would rather them be better rather than cheaper. Using the winged one a bunch, even at 185 I would still not bring him, as vindicator/terminators dropped as well and are basically the same points.

The Legionaries going to 80 is pretty big. The problem is cultists are at 50, and so still are probably better for a back line unit. That is the problem with battle line, they either have to be so cheap you want to spam them over just paying a bit more for a good unit, or they need something else. Maybe 10 out of a rhino or land raider with a lord could be good.

Some head scrachers............

No points reduction on the Lord Discordant? He has been awful all edition, although like with the DP, I would rather him be more powerful then cheaper. Hopefully the codex does something with him.

Beastmen - these guys might as well be legends as GW clearly is not considering them when reviewing points. They are now 15 points more than 5 legionaries?!? No way no how.

Traitor Guradsmen - no points reduction on these, and now they are just inferior to cultists. No change to their leader either, and again these units might as well be legends.

Overall I am happy with what they did for CSM. Yea maybe some other units could of used a reduction (lord discordant) but overall I think they boosted a lot that was on the boarder of being good.

Honestly I was surprised some of our good units got points drops, kudos to the Possessed, Termies and Legionnaires.

Cultist drop is nice, but odd that Traitor Guardsmen got nothing they are really not worth the price now.

Nice to see the Hellbrutes getting small points drops, they're a fun unit and I'm tempted to run 3x with the usual dakkabrute in the back and two hammer brutes alongside some infantry.

Maybe one day the Heldrake will drop in price haha