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2023/07/20 09:48:26
Subject: How do United States jurisdictions work in city's and counties
Am i right on this ?
1. Sheriffs work in counties
2. Cops work in City's
Do counties bleed into city's..ie is a city made up of several counties ?
Does a city count as its own jurisdiction ?
Can a sheriff make arrest in a city and visa versa for cops in a neighbouring county ?
How do Pinkertons operate in the US...are they state/ federal ?
Do Texas Rangers only operate in Texas ?
Thank you for your time Dakka.
2023/07/20 10:52:42
Subject: How do United States jurisdictions work in city's and counties
Sheriff is a rank. They're usually elected or appointed (by an elected body). They are usually in counties.
2. Cops work in City's
No. 'Cop' is a colloquialism. Its (almost universally or largely) police, whether city or county.
Do counties bleed into city's..ie is a city made up of several counties ?
Does a city count as its own jurisdiction ?
OK. This is.... complicated. Partly because it varies by state. (but its usually the opposite- a county will contain several cities. But not always)
I theoretically live in the 'City' of XXXX. (demographically, its a town, but officially, this state calls it a city. Geographically, I live five miles outside of town in, ironically, a township (which is an administrative subdivision of the county). The 'city limits' are the borough (in this state. In other states I've lived in, townships are called boroughs). My township isn't actually contiguous with the borough (there's another township between mine and town)
I pay taxes to the county (actually, to a tax bureau that administers two counties). And local taxes based on the school district (which is four or five townships away on the other side of town. At least the high school is).
In other places, there have been no county or local taxes, they're simply apportioned from state taxes. Some states don't have state taxes. I mention this because the school district actually has a lot more impact on my life (and taxes) than the township does. As an administrative unit, its far more useful (I throw an $8 tax at the township every year and it determines where I vote. That's about the extent of its influence on my life, though if I were to start a business at home, its zoning policies matter a lot).
But the County Police operate here (with their administrative center in the 'city,' but this is also the County Seat). We don't have 'city police,' despite officially being a city.
There is also the State Highway Patrol, which is separate from county or city police departments.
Larger cities do have their own police forces, and are usually referred to by the name of the city- no idea offhand if that's always the official classification, however.
Then you have abominations like Los Angeles, which is both a city and a county, but also has smaller cities inside it. And adjacent to it. And counties adjacent to it that people often consider inside it (Orange County in particular). For example, to tie into the previous question, Santa Monica is a separate city with its own police department, but its inside the county of los angeles, but distinct from the city of los angeles (but most people just think of it as a neighborhood of LA).
Can a sheriff make arrest in a city and visa versa for cops in a neighbouring county ?
If you believe Dukes of Hazzard, no. But that would also have you believe that the police can't go to someone's house and arrest/fine them, that they have to be caught in the moment (during the chase) or it somehow doesn't count.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2023/07/20 13:06:45
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2023/07/20 14:50:36
Subject: How do United States jurisdictions work in city's and counties
Sheriff is a rank. They're usually elected or appointed (by an elected body). They are usually in counties.
2. Cops work in City's
No. 'Cop' is a colloquialism. Its (almost universally or largely) police, whether city or county.
Do counties bleed into city's..ie is a city made up of several counties ? Does a city count as its own jurisdiction ?
OK. This is.... complicated. Partly because it varies by state. (but its usually the opposite- a county will contain several cities. But not always)
I theoretically live in the 'City' of XXXX. (demographically, its a town, but officially, this state calls it a city. Geographically, I live five miles outside of town in, ironically, a township (which is an administrative subdivision of the county). The 'city limits' are the borough (in this state. In other states I've lived in, townships are called boroughs). My township isn't actually contiguous with the borough (there's another township between mine and town) I pay taxes to the county (actually, to a tax bureau that administers two counties). And local taxes based on the school district (which is four or five townships away on the other side of town. At least the high school is). In other places, there have been no county or local taxes, they're simply apportioned from state taxes. Some states don't have state taxes. I mention this because the school district actually has a lot more impact on my life (and taxes) than the township does. As an administrative unit, its far more useful (I throw an $8 tax at the township every year and it determines where I vote. That's about the extent of its influence on my life, though if I were to start a business at home, its zoning policies matter a lot).
But the County Police operate here (with their administrative center in the 'city,' but this is also the County Seat). We don't have 'city police,' despite officially being a city.
There is also the State Highway Patrol, which is separate from county or city police departments.
Larger cities do have their own police forces, and are usually referred to by the name of the city- no idea offhand if that's always the official classification, however.
Then you have abominations like Los Angeles, which is both a city and a county, but also has smaller cities inside it. And adjacent to it. And counties adjacent to it that people often consider inside it (Orange County in particular). For example, to tie into the previous question, Santa Monica is a separate city with its own police department, but its inside the county of los angeles, but distinct from the city of los angeles (but most people just think of it as a neighborhood of LA).
Can a sheriff make arrest in a city and visa versa for cops in a neighbouring county ?
If you believe Dukes of Hazzard, no. But that would also have you believe that the police can't go to someone's house and arrest/fine them, that they have to be caught in the moment (during the chase) or it somehow doesn't count.
It's funny how similar our living situations are. I'm about 10 mile out of town.
On point 1 I think you may have done better to explain it's a sheriffs department with the sheriff as the head of the department ect.
as an add too - Where I live we have a sheriffs department which is headquartered in the city of Palatka, Palatka also has a police department. I am in a town 35 min south of that, well out side of town. (It's a small city, we just call it town*.) That town had a police department but ended the contract after the police chief got into a scandal and the town decided it was on longer able to afford the police in the budget. They entered into a contract with the sheriffs department. I live out of town/city limits so any law enforcement I would interact with would be and has been county Sheriffs department personnel. this department services the entire county, some towns and cities, what ever it is that they are, have their own police departments. There is over lap. And yes we also have state troopers and see them on the road quite often. I know this isn't a technical answer but I hope this does start to bring things into focus. I don't know a lot more than the above on the topic as far as jurisdiction goes. I just felt like there was a bit of a misunderstanding.
*Our city has one yellow blinking light and one intersection with a light.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/07/20 19:48:39
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2023/07/20 16:25:10
Subject: How do United States jurisdictions work in city's and counties
The short answer is "It depends". America is a crazy quilt of states, counties, cities, and variations thereof. St. Louis city is a county unto itself, separate from St. Louis County. As mentioned above. LA is several exceptions all by itself.
Every law enforcement agency, from the smallest village police all the way up to the FBI, has strictly defined areas of jurisdiction... and their authority ends at that line.
In most cases, police CAN continue a pursuit across that line so they can co-ordinate with the adjoining law enforcement agencies. Once the adjoining law enforcement agency is in position to take up the pursuit, the now out-of-jurisdiction officer drops out of the pursuit and returns to his own jurisdiction.
What they CANNOT do is pursue over the line and arrest on their own authority, because out of their jurisdiction they have NO authority.
Of course, there are even exceptions to that. Local police can't continue a pursuit into, say, Area 51, or Cheyanne Mountain, or other such installations....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/20 16:26:22
CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done.
2023/07/20 18:12:24
Subject: How do United States jurisdictions work in city's and counties
On point 1 I think you may have done better to explain it's a sheriffs department with the sheriff as the head of the department ect.
as an add too -
Where I live we have a sheriffs department which is headquartered in the city of Palatka, Palatka also has a police department. I am in a town 35 min south of that, well out side of town. (It's a small city, we just call it town*.) That town had a police department but ended to contract after the police chief got into a scandal and the town decided it was on longer able to afford the police in the budget. They entered into a contract with the sheriffs department. I live out of town/city limits so any law enforcement I would interact with would be and has been county Sheriffs department personnel. this department services the entire county, some towns and cities, what ever it is that they are, have their own police departments. There is over lap. And yes we also have state troopers and see them on the road quite often.
I know this isn't a technical answer but I hope this does start to bring things into focus.
I don't know a lot more than the above on the topic as far as jurisdiction goes. I just felt like there was a bit of a misunderstanding.
Well, I was going to say it wasn't so much a misunderstanding, but more an illustration of how much it depends on the state.
But it turns out we do have a Sheriff's Office and a police department, as well as a state police troop (but they cover 5 counties).
The sheriff's office (here) has a really low-level area of responsibility- mostly fines, civil complaints and real estate judgements, but can be backup, and for actual crime-related stuff prison transport and protection from abuse orders. They don't patrol or respond to calls. (That apparently falls under the police). They also have two guys on duty at the courthouse entrance at the metal detector (who I thought were police, but apparently not)
Not sure how big the sheriff's office is (its at least 7-8 based on the times I've been there for background check fingerprints (though I assumed they were police), and the police department is 11 people in total.
Huh. Some of the townships also have their own police departments. So if you tore down one of the highways and through town, you could end up dealing with the state place, township police, borough police and ultimately get booked by the sheriff's office (as the closest place for fingerprinting and processing, as well as the jail). What a mess.
Well, today was a learning day about the fethed-up town I live in (near).
*Our city has one yellow blinking light and one intersection with a light.
I've lived in worse. One town had a single light, a gas station and a motel (maybe 10 rooms). And its own school, for reasons that I never understood (as did each town in every direction). 7th-12th grade, about ~80 kids total.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/07/20 18:16:34
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2023/07/20 18:22:25
Subject: How do United States jurisdictions work in city's and counties
The jurisdiction hierarchy goes like this: Federal police (several varients), State Police, County Sheriff, Local police. Each is , generally a smaller area of land, and the higher up agencies can enforce laws in lower area jurisdiction as well (generally).
Of course, then you have oddities of jurisdiction, like Post Offices established before 1940. Most of those, while being inside a city, are technically NOT city land and are only under the jurisdiction of Federal Authorities. You could literally walk in and start cooking Meth and local police don't have any power to stop you, they'd have to (technically) call in Federal Authorities.
2023/07/20 21:35:07
Subject: How do United States jurisdictions work in city's and counties
On point 1 I think you may have done better to explain it's a sheriffs department with the sheriff as the head of the department ect.
as an add too - Where I live we have a sheriffs department which is headquartered in the city of Palatka, Palatka also has a police department. I am in a town 35 min south of that, well out side of town. (It's a small city, we just call it town*.) That town had a police department but ended to contract after the police chief got into a scandal and the town decided it was on longer able to afford the police in the budget. They entered into a contract with the sheriffs department. I live out of town/city limits so any law enforcement I would interact with would be and has been county Sheriffs department personnel. this department services the entire county, some towns and cities, what ever it is that they are, have their own police departments. There is over lap. And yes we also have state troopers and see them on the road quite often. I know this isn't a technical answer but I hope this does start to bring things into focus. I don't know a lot more than the above on the topic as far as jurisdiction goes. I just felt like there was a bit of a misunderstanding.
Well, I was going to say it wasn't so much a misunderstanding, but more an illustration of how much it depends on the state. But it turns out we do have a Sheriff's Office and a police department, as well as a state police troop (but they cover 5 counties).
The sheriff's office (here) has a really low-level area of responsibility- mostly fines, civil complaints and real estate judgements, but can be backup, and for actual crime-related stuff prison transport and protection from abuse orders. They don't patrol or respond to calls. (That apparently falls under the police). They also have two guys on duty at the courthouse entrance at the metal detector (who I thought were police, but apparently not)
Not sure how big the sheriff's office is (its at least 7-8 based on the times I've been there for background check fingerprints (though I assumed they were police), and the police department is 11 people in total.
Huh. Some of the townships also have their own police departments. So if you tore down one of the highways and through town, you could end up dealing with the state place, township police, borough police and ultimately get booked by the sheriff's office (as the closest place for fingerprinting and processing, as well as the jail). What a mess.
Well, today was a learning day about the fethed-up town I live in (near).
*Our city has one yellow blinking light and one intersection with a light.
I've lived in worse. One town had a single light, a gas station and a motel (maybe 10 rooms). And its own school, for reasons that I never understood (as did each town in every direction). 7th-12th grade, about ~80 kids total.
The only real reason I know much of anything about this is because of following the local face book group, which I joined so I could keep up with weather emergencies. I follow the sheriffs department and fire department as well. I've seen theme do search and rescue efforts just two houses down, looking for an elderly lady with Alzheimer's. They didn't find her she came out of the woods and more or less walked over towards me but they deployed helicopters and dogs and were doing as much as they could. They were elated when the lady was found. I know they also do water rescue. I've had one weird interaction with them. We were taking a goat off to a friends for breeding season and some knuckle head thought we had a wounded dear in the back of our truck but that was all cleared up in no time at all. Just some rando thinking they're doing good. I've had no interactions with the Palatka police at this point, which is fine. We had the forestry out here a month ago and they were pros. We have a huge lot of state owned land behind our house and it's boxed in with no access road and there was a small forest fire. Those guys were putting in the long hours. I really think everyone should follow their local first responder departments and all those kinds of agencies. Disasters, accidents what ever it is, it's good to be in the loop a little. I've seen reports of escaped convicts not too far from my home at least once. Good to know when to make sure all the doors are defiantly locked.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/21 00:02:13
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2023/07/20 22:09:26
Subject: How do United States jurisdictions work in city's and counties
Gert wrote: The Pinkertons are a private detective and security company. They still get hired for strike breaking activities to this day.
What was their most recent action?
As for the original question, I'd like to back up a bit and make something clear:
Not all US states use the same jurisdictional framework.
Louisiana's legal system is famously based on the Code Napoleon rather than English Common Law.
All states have counties, but their relationships with municipalities varies because there are situations where a metropolitan area straddles multiple counties. In some cases, a special authority is established under state law.
There are also intermediate jurisdictions between municipal and county: townships. These chiefly exist in the old Northwest Territories (the Midwest, like Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, etc.).
Jurisdictions may have mutual aid agreements, allowing officers from one to serve in the other. This often happens for disasters/civil disturbances.
And then there are Indian reservations, which are considered sovereign territory, not subject to state or local ordinances. Again, there are often mutual aid agreements and other workarounds to make sure order is preserved.
The reason for all of this is seemingly wasteful duplication is to create a diffusion of political power through multiple governing bodies. This acts as a buffer against the establishment of a Cromwell-style dictatorship, which was very much on the minds of the Founding Fathers.
And in fact we see it doing something like that today. Marijuana is federally prohibited, but many states have legalized it, which means that state and local law enforcement (who provide primary police power) will take no action against it. Federal officials would therefore have to use their own resources to arrest and prosecute violators, who would then have a right to trial by a jury drawn from the same population that voted to legalize the prohibited substance.
As to why the federal law remains on the books, that would veer into politics, so we'll just treat it as a sublime mystery.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/20 22:09:50
There is a funny video where a Federal Land Management officer attempted to enforce anti poaching laws on a Native American reservation after being repeatedly told to keep out. Indian Police detained him on the road for several hours in a tense standoff before they let him go.
2023/07/20 23:15:33
Subject: How do United States jurisdictions work in city's and counties
The county sheriff is an office in these here parts and mine has two deputies and a new canine unit. We're also the county seat which resides in a city with their own police force. I'm within a defunct township outside city limits in the county.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/20 23:16:06
cuda1179 wrote: The jurisdiction hierarchy goes like this: Federal police (several varients), State Police, County Sheriff, Local police. Each is , generally a smaller area of land, and the higher up agencies can enforce laws in lower area jurisdiction as well (generally).
Of course, then you have oddities of jurisdiction, like Post Offices established before 1940. Most of those, while being inside a city, are technically NOT city land and are only under the jurisdiction of Federal Authorities. You could literally walk in and start cooking Meth and local police don't have any power to stop you, they'd have to (technically) call in Federal Authorities.
Gert wrote: The Pinkertons are a private detective and security company. They still get hired for strike breaking activities to this day.
What was their most recent action?
Not union-breaking, but earlier this year Hasbro hired them to retrieve some pre-release M:tG cards that had been accidentally shipped to a YouTuber. And according to the YouTuber (which means take with a bag of salt, we are talking about a YouTuber) they haven't changed their tactics all that much since their 1800s union-busting days.
If you're really interested, there are plenty of YouTube videos about it. The only consistent facts seem to be 1) The YouTuber was sent the cards accidentally, 2) he reviewed them on his channel, and 3) Hasbro hired the Pinkertons to retrieve them. Everything else is hearsay at best.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/21 02:11:15
CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done.
2023/07/21 10:57:12
Subject: How do United States jurisdictions work in city's and counties
Amazon hired them to do anti-union work in 2020 and Starbucks hired an ex-Pinkerton employee to do the same in 2022. The funniest part is it didn't work.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/21 10:57:41
2023/07/21 13:00:22
Subject: How do United States jurisdictions work in city's and counties
cuda1179 wrote: There is a funny video where a Federal Land Management officer attempted to enforce anti poaching laws on a Native American reservation after being repeatedly told to keep out. Indian Police detained him on the road for several hours in a tense standoff before they let him go.
Huh. That's a weird one, and says a lot, because most Bureau of Land Management people know better. Reservations are basically forbidden without an invite, and relations are generally terrible enough as is.
Though the old treaties give people headaches for new and exciting reasons. When I was in New Mexico the Rio Grande (which isn't nearly so 'grand' in the middle of the state) has constant problems with water level during the summer months. Using it for irrigation is strictly off-limits. Except for the Native American tribes, who have open water usage rights of the river as they see fit. Even when the water levels are so low that the wildlife services have to catch and move rare fish species 50 miles downriver (by truck) so they don't go extinct.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2023/07/21 19:05:47
Subject: How do United States jurisdictions work in city's and counties
Amazon hired them to do anti-union work in 2020 and Starbucks hired an ex-Pinkerton employee to do the same in 2022. The funniest part is it didn't work.
Yeah, that's not strike-breaking, which is a very specific action. For one thing, it requires an actual strike. An Amazon strike would be epic, btw. Same for Starbucks.
I mean hate on the Pinkertons all you want, but if you accuse them of something, it's nice to back it up.
The Magic the Gathering card retrieval thing is darkly amusing. Quite the transition from pitched battles with miners to nicking cards from nerds.
Gert wrote: Sorry I mixed up anti-union action and strikebreaking. It can be so difficult to mix up those two very closely related things.
It doesn't help a cause if you make provably false statements. I say this as someone whose father was locked out of work for five years and who - in my only run for public office - received the local union endorsement.
Strikebreaking has a clear meaning and connotation, and as far as I am aware, hasn't happened for decades. Lockouts are far more common these days, and you don't need detectives for them.
Getting back to the topic, an additional complication is that even similar entities can have very different organization and power. For example, most counties in Michigan are run by elected commissions. There is no executive, the sheriff being elected separately. However, some counties have found it necessary to have a chief executive (which we actually named "county executive").
I know that some states have a "county judge" who serves a similar purpose.
On the municipal level, we have two types of city government. Most use a city council/city manager system. Political power exercised by an elected city council, who chooses one of them to be "mayor," but it is a purely ceremonial role. Day-to-day operations are run by a city manager hired by the council. This is an actual career field, and city managers will often start in small towns and work their way up.
The other type has the executive function filled by an elected mayor, who works with the city council but does not answer to them.
And don't get me started on the courts. Very complicated.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/21 23:40:14
Adeptekon wrote: Yeah the sheriff has been an office as far as I've ever known it, and folks are keen on what parties those running for it belong to.
Because sheriffs are elected officials in their own right, this limits state and federal authority within their jurisdiction. For example, during the pandemic, the governor and attorney general issued a number of decrees whereupon the county sheriffs (many of whom were of the same party) declared that none of their officers would be used enforce them.
The municipalities also joined in, and multiple jurisdictions said the same thing: neat rules, enforce them yourself, governor.
Now this seems like a recipe for chaos, but the intention is to ensure that laws have broad public support. Simply cobbling together a bare majority (especially for sweeping measures) is not going to be enough.
In the event, the State Police were (for a brief time) used for enforcement, but they lacked the resources and so things were quietly dropped.
By the way, a major milestone on the path to the American Civil War was the Fugitive Slave Act, which authorized slave-catchers to conscript state and local law officers to enforce it. As you can imagine, this did not go over well with the non-slave states and there were several episodes of near-riots when slave-catchers tried to invoke its provisions on extremely unenthusiastic local police forces. Tar and feathers sorts of affairs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/23 12:54:28
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
A county will generally have more than 1 city inside of it. Each of which may or may not have their own police force. Usually only the smallest of towns(towns are the same as cities legally speaking) won't have any law enforcement of their own, in which case they'll be reliant on the Sheriff's department.
Each county will have its own Sheriff(an elected official) who will be the head of the Sheriff department. The officers who make up the Sheriff department will be Deputies, but in slang they can also be called Sheriffs or other things depending on the state. Sheriff officers have authority in the entire county, including any cities that are part of it. But contrary to what Dukes of Hazzard might tell you it is perfectly legal for all law enforcement in the US to chase you over the county/state line. And they'll probably have called the LEOs of the other county/state to be waiting for you. In the past when communication between jurisdictions was more difficult/impossible such a thing might have worked, but not anymore. It might have worked during the 1800s when a sheriff might be literally by himself, so he can't just go chasing a fugitive and leave his county for weeks without someone to watch the county.
The Texas Rangers are what you would call a State Police force. They are operated by the State of Texas. I believe every state has a state police force, but they don't have consistent naming schemes and some have several state police forces that do different things. Texas Rangers, California Highway Patrol, Alaska State Troopers , etc... are examples of state police.
You'll also have each State having a Department of Fish and Game who enforce the states hunting, fishing, and natural resource laws. And while that is their primary function, they're still full State Police.
Sheriffs also as mentioned are only beholden to their local voters. While they can enforce state and federal laws, there is no mechanism to force them to do so, and if a Sheriff doesn't want to enforce a rule or law passed by the state/fed they really can't do anything about it.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
whembly wrote: In Missouri our state police is called the "Missouri Highway Patrol". They do more than just patrol the highways...
Just don't think of America is one big homogenous nation-state. It's a patchwork of 50 states, all with their own governance and sheer weirdness.
It's interesting to see how the various state police forces emerged. A number of them emerged as "highway patrols" to police the growing road networks.
In Michigan, the State Police were created during World War I as a state militia to replace the activated National Guard sent overseas. There was a fear of labor trouble, infiltrators from Canada , and other skullduggery, so a "state defense force" was stood up during the war years. Afterwards, people liked the results, and so the Michigan State Police came into being.
Because of that military lineage, officers are referred to as "troopers," and they operate out of "posts," just like the army.
Indeed, for many years, State Police Posts were set up like army barracks.
ah yes, the pinkertons, or the fundamental reason why security shouldn't be privatised and the state be made up of part-timers in charge of a proffesional body.
Alas. Pinkertons it is.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2023/07/27 15:22:08
Subject: Re:How do United States jurisdictions work in city's and counties
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Again, Pinkertons dont work for the government. They work for whoever hires them. They're not privetized security.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
licclerich wrote: Am i right on this ?
1. Sheriffs work in counties
2. Cops work in City's
Do counties bleed into city's..ie is a city made up of several counties ?
Does a city count as its own jurisdiction ?
Can a sheriff make arrest in a city and visa versa for cops in a neighbouring county ?
How do Pinkertons operate in the US...are they state/ federal ?
Do Texas Rangers only operate in Texas ?
Thank you for your time Dakka.
Generally yes, a Sheriff is a county-level (Parish-level in Louisiana, where they refer to counties as Parishes) law enforcement officer - technically its the Sherriffs "office" or "department", as theres typically only one actual sherriff usually, and the rest of the officers at the county levels work for him or her as Deputies (singular: Deputy), though this may vary state to state. A police officer/cop/pig, etc.is typically and generally referring to a law enforcement officer at the municipal level (not just city, but town, village, borough, etc.). At the state level, they are traditionally referred to as State Troopers (but other names exist, for example State Police in Pennsylvania), though many state level agencies are now referred to as Highway Patrols as they basically function as traffic enforcement over state routes and have limited function or jurisdiction outside of that and their powers have been largely devolved to other agencies (sometimes, not always. Sometimes its called a Highway Patrol but they do a lot more than that).
The exception to this is Alaska (which has no counties and instead has "boroughs") and Connecticut (which replaced county sherriffs department with two state marshal systems that have broader jurisdiction). There are certain other weird exceptions - Union County, New Jersey (for example) has a County Sherriffs office, but also has a County Police Department with many of the same powers and responsibilities but slightly different jurisdiction - thats in addition to the local municipal police departments. Likewise, not every municipality has a police department, here in NJ some towns share a common police department among themselves (usually a smaller town that can't afford their own individually will fall under the jurisdiction of a larger bordering town), or rely on state troopers to enforce the law (mostly extremely rural sparsely populated areas of south jersey). Another anomaly is New York City - its a single city made up of 5 counties with a single municipal/city wide police department plus a single sherriffs office - but then it gets wierd because theres also the Port Authority Police Department which has jurisdiction over subways, airports, seaports, etc. (that jurisdiction also extends into New Jersey as its a shared resource between the two states), as well as some other more specific law enforcement organizations.
Then there are also constables, which vary in usage across the country, in Nevada for example they are elected law enforcement officials with statewide level authority and power, whereas in New Jersey they are politically appointed civilians with unclear powers and jurisdictions, typically appointed at the county level, while in Texas they operate at the county precinct level (a subdivision of the county used in Texas).
And then there are Marshals, which could refer to a federal level law enforcement official from certain agencies (Air Marshals or US Marshals, for example, others use agent, police officer, ranger, or other terminology instead) or various other state and local law enforcement agents.
Do counties bleed into cities - Sometimes. Theres no one size fits all answer to the question. The city of New York is made up of 5 counties. San Francisco on the other hand is both a county and a city, as is Denver, and Philadelphia. Most cities are part of a county but not the only city or municipality in the county - for example, Los Angeles (the city) is one of 88 municipalities/cities located within Los Angeles county. There are also a handful of "independent cities" which do not fall under the jurisdiction of a county - Baltimore for example. Then there are the cities and municipalities that cover multiple counties in part (unlike NYC which occupies 5 counties in full), like Atlanta - this is actually surprisingly more common than people realize.
A city may be its own jurisdiction, sometimes a city is made up of multiple separate jurisdictions. Often times, theres multiple overlapping layers and levels of jurisdiction (I.E a county sherrif and a local police department will both have jurisdiction). It really does vary from place to place.
Whether a sherriff can make an arrest in a city within a county really depends on the state/county. If you haven't picked up on it, theres really no one size fits all explanation for how law enforcement works in the US, it really does vary. Some states sherriffs have very limited law enforcement powers that limits their jurisdiction to only county property (county roads, county parks, etc.), others they function like a normal police force and have authority across the whole county. In terms of neighboring territory - that also really depends. Generally no, not automatically. Some states or municipalities may allow cross-jurisdictional activity under certain circumstances or have standing agreements to allow it, but that can vary widely in what it looks like and how it works.
Pinkertons are an independent private non-government rent-a-cop agency. They don't really have law enforcement powers, their really more like armed thugs that show up to do whatever they were hired to do - they are expected to operate within the limits of the law and can't do basically anything an actual law enforcement officer might be able to do, but often get away with questionable stuff by operating in legal grey areas (ex - the constitution protects against unlawful entry into a private dwelling without a warrant. A pinkerton isn't law enforcement, doesn't need a warrant but would technically be trespassing if they entered your property without permission - they get around this by just being intimidating and threatening enough to make you let them in voluntarily without (hopefully) crossing the line into illegality).
Texas Rangers are a state level law enforcement agency in Texas. Its actually a relatively small agency (like 150 officers) but they have statewide investigative and law enforcement powers and authorities. Like any other agency they have their mandates and jurisdictions and policies/rules they have to follow with regards to which agencies jurisdiction takes precedence in a given situation. They only have jurisdiction in Texas but in certain circumstances when crimes cross state lines may become involved in events outside of the state of Texas (though that usually means that they aid a federal agency in the investigation and don't necessarily take an active role in it themselves).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/07/27 15:47:28
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2023/07/28 00:13:31
Subject: How do United States jurisdictions work in city's and counties
chaos0xomega wrote: Pinkertons are an independent private non-government rent-a-cop agency. They don't really have law enforcement powers, their really more like armed thugs that show up to do whatever they were hired to do - they are expected to operate within the limits of the law and can't do basically anything an actual law enforcement officer might be able to do, but often get away with questionable stuff by operating in legal grey areas (ex - the constitution protects against unlawful entry into a private dwelling without a warrant. A pinkerton isn't law enforcement, doesn't need a warrant but would technically be trespassing if they entered your property without permission - they get around this by just being intimidating and threatening enough to make you let them in voluntarily without (hopefully) crossing the line into illegality).
Yep. It's important to remember this, Pinkertons (and rent-a-cops like them) like to LARP about being more than common street thugs but they are not law enforcement and have none of the privileges of law enforcement. If they show up at your door and try to intimidate you into anything that's felony breaking and entering, armed robbery, etc, and you're entirely free to fear for your life and kill them just like any other thug attempting to commit a crime against you.
In Omaha, Nebraska there is a small island of land (mostly half of a strip mall) that technically was never incorporated into the city. Most people don't know about it, and the local news found out that a majority of the shopkeepers there didn't know they were illegally collecting city tax revenue from customers.
It's also a haven from the city's "diner's tax". From what I've been able to dig up, it's also not within the jurisdiction of the local police, nor is the northbound traffic in the nearby road (Southbound IS city).
I'd love to see someone get a ticket there and fight it on jurisdiction grounds.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/28 00:18:54
2023/07/28 00:55:03
Subject: How do United States jurisdictions work in city's and counties
Yes, and as unsavory as that was, it was not strikebreaking, which is what I was referring to.
If you think about it, the original "private security" was feudal levies.
Of course, the Pinkertons are just one example of private detectives. I mean, as much as they may be shady, how could we do without Sam Spade, Mike Hammer, Thomas Magnum, etc.?
Think of all the washed-up celebrities/emerging talent that would have gone to waste!
My cousin does detective work. He says almost all of it is sitting and waiting. Usually that's waiting to take a pic of a cheater or someone milking disability. Some of it is simply looking for people when the client's seach-fu is weak. He said a number of people he's tracked down over the years he's used nothing more than an afternoon with public databases and Facebook. Finding the Maltese Falcon isn't in his wheelhouse.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/28 01:57:38
, and other skullduggery, so a "state defense force" was stood up during the war years. Afterwards, people liked the results, and so the Michigan State Police came into being.
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