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So while my current tyranid collection lends itself more to a vanguard army, a lot of my favorite models are the medium bugs. The multi-wounders that aren't big enough to be monsters. Warriors, venomthropes, biovores, zoanthropes, etc. I know that there were periods in the last couple of editions where spamming medium bugs might have been viable if I'd dropped the money to get all the right gribblies together, but is that approach viable in 10th?

On one hand, a bunch of warriors and hive guard with venomthropes buffing saves and lictors trying to pluck out enemy character support seems like it would be pretty daunting for most of the enemy's small arms fire. On the other hand, most of the medium bugs are fantastic targets for both lascannons and the newly-nerfed melta weapons, and it seems like most of the medium bugs are really meant to be supporting other archetypes rather than being an archetype of their own. Plus, I'm pretty sure such an army would end up getting overshadowed by factions more designed with beefy infantry in mind. I feel like custodes and eldar wraith armies would be a rough matchup, for instance.

Does anyone see a way for an army composed primarily of medium bugs to work, or do I just need to content myself with splashing them into a vanilla or endless swarm list instead?

18 Zoanthropes in 3 Tyrannocytes! Makes for a hell of an alpha strike, esp. in a Synaptic Assault list. Trigger the "+1 to hit while in Synapse" ability, and do some damage. Stack on the Irresistible Will stratagem for max effectiveness.

We're having part of this conversation over in the Vanguard thread, in the context of "what to do with (Neuro)Lictors" - if you turn your head and squint, the combination of 3 Lictors + 3 Neurolictors (and maybe + Deathleaper) is a pretty nasty assault "unit" that happens to require your opponent to target each model separately. And if you've got that deployed up front, maybe with some Van Ryan's Leapers backing them up, then your Warriors may actually live long enough to do...something. Not sure what, though; they're pretty sad, in terms of weaponry.

If you wanted to go the other way, I think it still starts with 18 Zoanthropes, but then continues with Hive Guard. Here's where some Venomthropes are handy (for Stealth), too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(That's not to say you can't have a ton of fun if you don't have 18 zoanthropes.)

+1 to hit in synapse for melee

Ah, so it is. That's a bummer.

Hmm. Even if I don't spam zoats, the synaptic detachment still seems like it might be the most effective way to play this kind of list.

Venomthropes functionally give any 4+ save bugs (such as warriors) a 2+. Those same warriors can make themselves and all their nearby friends more effective at shooting a single target each turn with a strat. I also see that warriors can take both a barbed strangler and a venom cannon for every three models now, so they can actually put out a decent volume of mid-strength attacks with AP at a distance.

What I'm picturing is something like 6 warriors, 2 squads of 3 hiveguard, and 1 venomthrope unit walking up the table to pressure a midfield objective. Once there, the hive guard plant their feet and keep shooting while the venomthropes and warriors keep moving forward to add their melee to the warriors' shooting. Depending on the enemy's access to AP and Ignores Cover, I use either the 5+ invuln or the speed boosting imperative on turn 1.

A lone biovore can plop down spore mines to make it harder for the enemy to rush in from one direction. A couple of lictors or genestealers either haunt the mid-field early on to act as bait or else go for an early charge to hopefully tie up threats to the warriors early on. All the while, zoats either float up the table or pod in to try and blast away key threats. If I take raveners, the warriors have the option to back off and hang with the hiveguard around midfield as the raveners take over on melee duty.

It still feels really vulnerable to lascannons and lances, and that's a lot of points huddled up in one location, but it's also a lot of pretty chunky statlines moving up the table. Seems viable for casual games but prone to rock/paper/scissor mismatches?

What you mean about venom? Benefit of cover is nice but doesn't stack wlth reqular cover. Where extra blib of save comes?

I'm not sure a reality exists where Hive Guard are worth taking.

tneva82 wrote:
What you mean about venom? Benefit of cover is nice but doesn't stack wlth reqular cover. Where extra blib of save comes?

Maybe he's simplifying the effect of Stealth? -1 to hit means fewer hits, thus fewer wounds, thus fewer saves you have to make?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm not sure a reality exists where Hive Guard are worth taking.

I must have missed an edition where Hive Guard were stupidly good or something. What I really don't get is how they've gone UP in points between 1.2 and 1.3. It's like they're just going to keep jacking up the point cost of any Tyranid with a gun until nobody takes them at all?

 Janthkin wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
What you mean about venom? Benefit of cover is nice but doesn't stack wlth reqular cover. Where extra blib of save comes?

Maybe he's simplifying the effect of Stealth? -1 to hit means fewer hits, thus fewer wounds, thus fewer saves you have to make?

Oops. Nope. I was just misremembering what Stealth does. Had it in my head that it was an extra +1 to your save from cover instead of -1 to enemy to-hit rolls.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm not sure a reality exists where Hive Guard are worth taking.

I must have missed an edition where Hive Guard were stupidly good or something. What I really don't get is how they've gone UP in points between 1.2 and 1.3. It's like they're just going to keep jacking up the point cost of any Tyranid with a gun until nobody takes them at all?

My friend who plays his 'nids far more often than I do liked the look of hiveguard on paper. Or rather, he liked the look of a single squad of hive guard that sit on an objective and overwatch every turn so that you're basically getting double the offense out of them.

 Janthkin wrote:
I must have missed an edition where Hive Guard were stupidly good or something.

Multi-shot Strength 8 Indirect Fire. They were monstrous... three editions ago.

 Janthkin wrote:
What I really don't get is how they've gone UP in points between 1.2 and 1.3.

Same reason: Because they were monstrous... three editions ago. GW likes to balance things in latter editions because they were powerful in different sets of rules. Hive Tyrants continue to suffer from the days when the Supreme Command Detachment made them amazing. Wraithlords were punished long after the days of sniping the power fist and being invincible in melee had passed. I suspect the Wraithknight will still be getting nerfs well into 12th edition simply because of how they're performing now.

But to hell with their points updates. I'm using my Codex - a book that came out after those points were released - exactly as printed. And I maintain that the points they put out a few days before the Codex came out were based on the Index and not on the actual Codex. There's simply no other explanation for the change on the Tyrannofex (or the Hierodules), and it certainly wouldn't be the first time where we've had points reversions or changes that seem completely out of line with the previous points changes/reality (there was points change a while back where it seems that whomever wrote it used not the previous points as their starting point, but the one before the last one, as so many things reverted back to the previous points for no reason).

I used Hive Guard in my two 10th edition games and found them okay so far. Against GSC they were snipering the characters out of units. Against Thousand Sons I got tabled and they were the only guys actually doing anything.

This was pre overwatch nerf though.

 Astmeister wrote:
I used Hive Guard in my two 10th edition games and found them okay so far. Against GSC they were snipering the characters out of units. Against Thousand Sons I got tabled and they were the only guys actually doing anything.

This was pre overwatch nerf though.

How do Hive Guard snipe characters out of units?

Presumably with invasion fleet. Either by choosing precision from get-go or stratagem. Not that bad idea vs gsc

Yeah I choose the precision on 6s at the start of the battle. That was pretty awesome against the squishy buff characters of GSC, because they all died sooner or later.

Returning to this, after playing against a Synaptic detachment this weekend: the "Irresistible Will" stratagem, cast on Zoanthropes (who are standing near other shooty things) is a very solid ability. Rerolling 1's to Hit and Wound removes a lot of the negative swing effect from using Zoanthropes (and makes the nearby Exocrines quite scary).