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How do!

Spinning off from the Rumour Engine Thread. No. Really.

I declare The Great Dakka Pie Fight Of 2023 officially started!

Opening shots?

Whether pie or casserole, Cottage and Shepher’s pie are both vile concoctions. You want Mince and Tatties, just eat mince and tatties like a big boy. And trust me, at 6’2” eating Mince and Tatties clearly does make you a Big Boy.

Besides, everyone knows a Steak and Kidney pie in shortcrust is the One True King Of Pies. Savoury, unctuous and just melt in the mouth delicious.

Can we define what a pie is first

That’s all part of the fight!

I’m in the camp it needs at least a pastry lid, but a pastry case is preferred.

I still want to note that Mad Doc is Mad and I think should be invalidated from the fight owing to him considering Cottage Pie/Shepherds Pie terrible - whilst trying to pretend that he's from England!





Also I'd hasten to point out that shepherds pie can have a crispy top. You just layer it meat-potato-cheese and then leave the cheese in just enough to brown a touch (carefully so it doesn't burn)

Not mad on kidneys. The bit that filters piss out of your body does not seem like a yummy treat to me. Steak and ale though, yes please.

On a related note, this place is not far from me.

https://www.piecaramba.co.uk/winchester

It is well worth a visit if you're in the area. Pies are great, and the decor is nerdvana. They even have those little mini-SNES consoles available to play in the seating booths.

 Overread wrote:
I still want to note that Mad Doc is Mad and I think should be invalidated from the fight owing to him considering Cottage Pie/Shepherds Pie terrible - whilst trying to pretend that he's from England!





Also I'd hasten to point out that shepherds pie can have a crispy top. You just layer it meat-potato-cheese and then leave the cheese in just enough to brown a touch (carefully so it doesn't burn)

Live. I live in England. I was born in Scotland.

Which means you may have expected Scotch Pie to be my favourite, with its amazing hot water pastry crust. And it is up there in my esteem, but is not my favourite.

the only good pie is the flat pie that italians produce en masse. No the americanised version also don't count and should be considered a violation of the geneva suggestions.

Pizza is never a "pie".

 Overread wrote:
Also I'd hasten to point out that shepherds pie can have a crispy top. You just layer it meat-potato-cheese and then leave the cheese in just enough to brown a touch (carefully so it doesn't burn)

Some would say that's the best part!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Pizza is never a "pie".

Damn straight

Irrelevant. Without pastry, you’ve got a fancy casserole which is just Mince and Tatties with delusions of adequacy!

Listen, it's not the issue of the rest of the world that you lot can't cook. Or even get your culinary vocabulary straight.

Its also not our fault that you decided to colonise everything for spices and then decided that you didn't like a single one either.



Obviously i am joking you do some mean steaks and indeed beef based pies are awesone.

I agree that some sort of pastry is required for pie. Top and/or base. Preferably both, but if you just have one, should be the base IMHO

Now, there are plenty of delicious things that don’t fit this definition. I prefer an apple crisp to an apple pie. And I’ll grant that shepherds/cottage pies do not meet this technical criteria.

That said, shepherd pies are awesome

And chicken pot pies, which actually do fit our definition.

My fav non-savory pie is probably strawberry rhubarb. I do prefer a bit of tart to cut the otherwise sweet treat. I use granny smith apples for my pies for the same reason.

I grew up with cottage pie as the default, shepherds pie being the lamb version. We'd frequently call lamb ones cottage too, it was just the generic name.

I'm a big fan of a good cottage pie. Needs plenty of cheese They also freeze well for later.

In the crispy-mash-'n'-cheese-is-a-crust camp.

Not Online!!! wrote:


Its also not our fault that you decided to colonise everything for spices and then decided that you didn't like a single one either.

A lot of cottage pies have curry powder in them Me grandmother's recipe always included a bit of curry powder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Controversial opinion: fruit crumbles are far superior to fruit pies. Give me a blackberry and apple crumble over the equivalent pie any day. Obviously foraged blackberries are best.

One thing about fruit crisps/crumbles/bucklers/etc. they are best hot out of the oven, but for after that, pies keep better and serve well cold.

 Nevelon wrote:
I agree that some sort of pastry is required for pie. Top and/or base. Preferably both, but if you just have one, should be the base IMHO

In my book, a base of pastry with no top is a tart, not a pie. Incidentally I also much prefer sweet tarts to sweet pies. Golden syrup tart is a proper treat.

 Haighus wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
I agree that some sort of pastry is required for pie. Top and/or base. Preferably both, but if you just have one, should be the base IMHO

In my book, a base of pastry with no top is a tart, not a pie. Incidentally I also much prefer sweet tarts to sweet pies. Golden syrup tart is a proper treat.

That’s fair. There is a lot of overlap of what’s what. We need one of those 3x3 matrices about form and structure for what a pie is.

There are enough open topped pies I can’t just write them off. Pumpkin pies, meringues, custards etc.

Those are tarts. Open faced tarts.

I would start a Tart Fight Thread but being British that’s just asking for trouble and farce!

 Haighus wrote:

Controversial opinion: fruit crumbles are far superior to fruit pies. Give me a blackberry and apple crumble over the equivalent pie any day. Obviously foraged blackberries are best.

Both are good, but a good crumble needs a nice thick crumble layer on top. Nothing worse than cutting into one and the top shatters like thin ice!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Those are tarts. Open faced tarts.

I would start a Tart Fight Thread but being British that’s just asking for trouble and farce!

Feels like that could easily be an episode of Toast Of London

Lot of semantic arguments around.

To circle back to pizza:

Normal pizza - pie?
Chicago deep dish - change things?
Calzone - crust on both sides?

Hand pies?
Quiche?

The heck is a hand pie??

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The heck is a hand pie??

They have a bunch of other names. Pasty? Dough stuffed with things and baked, small enough to hold in your hand and have for lunch. Like a hand sized calzone. Sweet or savory.

Oh, a pasty.

No, those are Pasties. But I think they may count as pies. Whilst not baked in a dish or tin, there are other undisputed Pies (the Scotch Pie) which are also cooked without a dish or tin.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh, a pasty.

No, those are Pasties. But I think they may count as pies. Whilst not baked in a dish or tin, there are other undisputed Pies (the Scotch Pie) which are also cooked without a dish or tin.

Begs the question: is a pie tin a requirement for pie-ness? Is anything cooked in one considered a pie?

(I have strong feeling about similar arguments surrounding martini glasses, but that’s for another thread)

 Nevelon wrote:
Lot of semantic arguments around.

To circle back to pizza:

Normal pizza - pie?
Chicago deep dish - change things?
Calzone - crust on both sides?

Hand pies?
Quiche?

Normal pizza - it's not pastry, it's not got a lid, it's not a pie. It's closer to fancy cheese on toast than it is pie.
Chicago deep dish - the only ones I've ever experienced are the cheap frozen Chicago Town brand deep dish mini things. They seem to have more of a pastry case than pizza dough, but no lid. They're a tart at best.
Calzone - not pastry, not a pie. I'd call it a big pasty but they're pastry-based too.
Speaking of pasties? Apparently the word derives from the medieval French word for a pie. Maybe they're a pie after all?
A quiche is a specific sub-division of tart. No lid.

Any questions?

Are tarts a subset of pies?
Are pies a variation on tarts?
Where’s the connection?

<insert crazy guy in front of board covered with pictures and string gif here>

I love me some Shephard's Pie.

Unless it’s not made lamb or mutton, in which case it’d a Cottage Pie at best.

And still a Casserole due to lack of pastry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I prefer an Apple Crumble to an Apple Pie.

 Nevelon wrote:
Are tarts a subset of pies?
Are pies a variation on tarts?
Where’s the connection?

<insert crazy guy in front of board covered with pictures and string gif here>

Personally I reckon pies and tarts are close siblings but neither one is a sub-set of the other.

Crispy78 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Are tarts a subset of pies?
Are pies a variation on tarts?
Where’s the connection?

<insert crazy guy in front of board covered with pictures and string gif here>

Personally I reckon pies and tarts are close siblings but neither one is a sub-set of the other.

I think we need a sort of food taxonomy. Pies and Tarts would be related Orders within the Baked Goods Phylum.

Something like:
Kingdom: hot foods.
Phylum: baked goods.
Order: pie
Family: savoury
Genus: meat
Species: steak&kidney pie