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 Sotahullu wrote:
Vect, being inspirational figure? Being example for "common" folk that even they can reach some vague position of power? First among equals? These sound ramblings of the slaves, the serfs, the weaklings, the victims and the cowards who don't even dare to say anything bad about the Supreme Overlord.

Vect only cares about absolute power, absolute control and entertainment. If person does not submit to these clauses there is no use for such person. Tyrant and megalomaniac in the extreme that more Drukhari has died out of "not being funny/useful" then any would be assasin.


Besides, being "god"or Dark Muse is just more power, more control and more entertainment. To actually being close to one even more (so not "god" as in "god" but rather "god-'cause-I-say-so").

Vect is basically the revolutionary who overthrew the corrupt nobility/drained the swamp and set himself and his cronies up as direct replacements for the old power structure. In some ways, a hierarchy based on treachery and opportunism does allow for more social climbing than one restricted by who one's parents are, and something that he can claim is an improvement for the little people that got him where he is, but there's a lot of suffering either way, and only blood trickling down..

Dudeface wrote:
I honestly don't know what the veteran level units really add though. The game isn't in a state to support flexible loadouts, so the trueborn/brides/thingumy units would basically be just.... kabalites/wyches/wracks with an extra attack/wound maybe.

In previous editions, the difference as been both load out and stat enhancements. Either of those work. The units would also have different special rules on the cards. You create the difference between the units mechanically, then you model the difference you've created. In all cases, I see the extra wound being justified as the improved stability of the stock- cloned flesh is not as enduring is that which is created via natural means.

I think that the elites would also have higher quality equipment- so where in the past, Trueborn might have carried more heavies, I see them as just being masterworked up, rather than a higher proportion of specials/heavies.

The thing about the line "I don't know what it would add..." is that what did veteran guardsmen add? What do veteran Space Marines add? Why do you question what DE elites would add without questioning what the elites of other factions add?

To be fair, Veteran Guardsmen (and Conscripts) no longer exist. On the other hand, there is not a Space Marines Veteran squad like there once was. Now we have Sternguard Veterans (with their Sternguard weapons) and Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs.

This means Trueborn need models with something special to bring to the table for GW to even bother making models and rules. It would need to be something more 40K than trying to translate the Hand of The Archon models into a 40K unit.

 alextroy wrote:
To be fair, Veteran Guardsmen (and Conscripts) no longer exist. On the other hand, there is not a Space Marines Veteran squad like there once was. Now we have Sternguard Veterans (with their Sternguard weapons) and Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs.

This means Trueborn need models with something special to bring to the table for GW to even bother making models and rules. It would need to be something more 40K than trying to translate the Hand of The Archon models into a 40K unit.

This. The veteran units for marines have a distinct focus with unique weapons, they're not just tactical marines with more special weapons any more.

If trueborn had totally different weapon loadouts and function rules wise, cool then go for it, but kabalites with more blasters in venoms isn't enough to justify them imo. Same applies to the other two.

To that end, do DE need another t3 4+ infantry unit with ranged poison weapons? The elite units historically are a simply better version with the same role as their line equivalents. Given there isn't an elites slot any more, it'll be hard to justify kabalites vs trueborn given they'll only be a handful of points apart assumingly.

Elite units historically have often had more versatility and/or reliability than their line versions. The latter generally comes from slight stat improvements, but the former usually came from access to unusual equipment or different special rules, like Imperial Guard veterans getting infiltrate in the 3.5th codex or access to demolition charges and meltabombs in the 5th edition codex. Space Marine veterans had access to infiltrate/tank hunters/furious charge in 4th and could be much more melee focused in the 4th edition codex, which was later split into sternguard and vanguard with special issue ammunition and assault from deepstrike respectively.

Plus, stat boosts and equipment options can significantly change a unit in feel and role. A unit of nobz is "just" a unit of boyz with better stats and more weapon options... but in practice one works as a horde and the other as elite shock infantry.

Veterans just being a slight stat boost is not a consistent trend, and being unable to differentiate Trueborn would simply be a failure of imagination for GW's rules writers rather than a "historic" barrier.

As it happens, I don't think Space Marine veterans have ever just been Tactical Marines with more special weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
To be fair, Veteran Guardsmen (and Conscripts) no longer exist.

The Guard line-up is something of a mess.

There are basic Guardsmen, which is broadly the same it has been for about 3 decades- 1 special weapon, 1 heavy weapon.

Then there are more shooty Guardsmen who can take two special weapons, more punchy Guardsmen who can take two flamers, and more tough Guardsmen who can take... abit of a mess, but roughly 2-3 special weapons. But none of these are veteran Guardsmen in the codex, even though the official kit for one of those units comes in a box labelled with "veteran guardsmen"...

 Haighus wrote:
Elite units historically have often had more versatility and/or reliability than their line versions. The latter generally comes from slight stat improvements, but the former usually came from access to unusual equipment or different special rules, like Imperial Guard veterans getting infiltrate in the 3.5th codex or access to demolition charges and meltabombs in the 5th edition codex. Space Marine veterans had access to infiltrate/tank hunters/furious charge in 4th and could be much more melee focused in the 4th edition codex, which was later split into sternguard and vanguard with special issue ammunition and assault from deepstrike respectively.

Plus, stat boosts and equipment options can significantly change a unit in feel and role. A unit of nobz is "just" a unit of boyz with better stats and more weapon options... but in practice one works as a horde and the other as elite shock infantry.

Veterans just being a slight stat boost is not a consistent trend, and being unable to differentiate Trueborn would simply be a failure of imagination for GW's rules writers rather than a "historic" barrier.

As it happens, I don't think Space Marine veterans have ever just been Tactical Marines with more special weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
To be fair, Veteran Guardsmen (and Conscripts) no longer exist.

The Guard line-up is something of a mess.

There are basic Guardsmen, which is broadly the same it has been for about 3 decades- 1 special weapon, 1 heavy weapon.

Then there are more shooty Guardsmen who can take two special weapons, more punchy Guardsmen who can take two flamers, and more tough Guardsmen who can take... abit of a mess, but roughly 2-3 special weapons. But none of these are veteran Guardsmen in the codex, even though the official kit for one of those units comes in a box labelled with "veteran guardsmen"...

I agree with a lot of your points, but when people think of wanting trueborn they mean they want more darklight in the back of a venom, which is basically the only reason they were taken.

I'll take the chance to clarify, I'm not against trueborn as a completely new unit. I am against them coming back in their old guise. To exist now, I agree they need different stats/loadouts/rules and even then they're still a t3 body with a ranged poison weapon competing with kabalites.

Veteran marines had access to USRs back in the day as you note, but were otherwise +1 attack and leadership + more weapon options, similar to guard etc.

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

 Haighus wrote:
Elite units historically have often had more versatility and/or reliability than their line versions. The latter generally comes from slight stat improvements, but the former usually came from access to unusual equipment or different special rules, like Imperial Guard veterans getting infiltrate in the 3.5th codex or access to demolition charges and meltabombs in the 5th edition codex. Space Marine veterans had access to infiltrate/tank hunters/furious charge in 4th and could be much more melee focused in the 4th edition codex, which was later split into sternguard and vanguard with special issue ammunition and assault from deepstrike respectively.

Plus, stat boosts and equipment options can significantly change a unit in feel and role. A unit of nobz is "just" a unit of boyz with better stats and more weapon options... but in practice one works as a horde and the other as elite shock infantry.

Veterans just being a slight stat boost is not a consistent trend, and being unable to differentiate Trueborn would simply be a failure of imagination for GW's rules writers rather than a "historic" barrier.

As it happens, I don't think Space Marine veterans have ever just been Tactical Marines with more special weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
To be fair, Veteran Guardsmen (and Conscripts) no longer exist.

The Guard line-up is something of a mess.

There are basic Guardsmen, which is broadly the same it has been for about 3 decades- 1 special weapon, 1 heavy weapon.

Then there are more shooty Guardsmen who can take two special weapons, more punchy Guardsmen who can take two flamers, and more tough Guardsmen who can take... abit of a mess, but roughly 2-3 special weapons. But none of these are veteran Guardsmen in the codex, even though the official kit for one of those units comes in a box labelled with "veteran guardsmen"...

I agree with a lot of your points, but when people think of wanting trueborn they mean they want more darklight in the back of a venom, which is basically the only reason they were taken.

I'll take the chance to clarify, I'm not against trueborn as a completely new unit. I am against them coming back in their old guise. To exist now, I agree they need different stats/loadouts/rules and even then they're still a t3 body with a ranged poison weapon competing with kabalites.

I think that's fair.

Veteran marines had access to USRs back in the day as you note, but were otherwise +1 attack and leadership + more weapon options, similar to guard etc.

But at what point do stat boosts and more weapon options become enough to differentiate a unit? Nobz are just boyz plus, even in lore, but I've never seen the same arguments for removing them as I have for veteran units in other factions. A Space Marine veteran squad that can take a power weapon and power fist instead of a special weapon and heavy weapon on the Tacticals is filling a different role, one specialised in melee. Doubly so if given an extra attack and Furious charge. I feel "but otherwise" is also doing a lot of heavy lifting, as having access to, say, infiltrate completely changes the capabilities and role of the unit.

Note: veterans could never take more than one special, one heavy, and sergeant upgrades in Codex: Space Marines. Sternguard when introduced could take two weapons, either of which could be special or heavy, and each model could upgrade their boltgun to a combi-weapon or stormbolter and had special issue ammunition. So quite a lot more going on.

 Haighus wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

 Haighus wrote:
Elite units historically have often had more versatility and/or reliability than their line versions. The latter generally comes from slight stat improvements, but the former usually came from access to unusual equipment or different special rules, like Imperial Guard veterans getting infiltrate in the 3.5th codex or access to demolition charges and meltabombs in the 5th edition codex. Space Marine veterans had access to infiltrate/tank hunters/furious charge in 4th and could be much more melee focused in the 4th edition codex, which was later split into sternguard and vanguard with special issue ammunition and assault from deepstrike respectively.

Plus, stat boosts and equipment options can significantly change a unit in feel and role. A unit of nobz is "just" a unit of boyz with better stats and more weapon options... but in practice one works as a horde and the other as elite shock infantry.

Veterans just being a slight stat boost is not a consistent trend, and being unable to differentiate Trueborn would simply be a failure of imagination for GW's rules writers rather than a "historic" barrier.

As it happens, I don't think Space Marine veterans have ever just been Tactical Marines with more special weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
To be fair, Veteran Guardsmen (and Conscripts) no longer exist.

The Guard line-up is something of a mess.

There are basic Guardsmen, which is broadly the same it has been for about 3 decades- 1 special weapon, 1 heavy weapon.

Then there are more shooty Guardsmen who can take two special weapons, more punchy Guardsmen who can take two flamers, and more tough Guardsmen who can take... abit of a mess, but roughly 2-3 special weapons. But none of these are veteran Guardsmen in the codex, even though the official kit for one of those units comes in a box labelled with "veteran guardsmen"...

I agree with a lot of your points, but when people think of wanting trueborn they mean they want more darklight in the back of a venom, which is basically the only reason they were taken.

I'll take the chance to clarify, I'm not against trueborn as a completely new unit. I am against them coming back in their old guise. To exist now, I agree they need different stats/loadouts/rules and even then they're still a t3 body with a ranged poison weapon competing with kabalites.

I think that's fair.

Veteran marines had access to USRs back in the day as you note, but were otherwise +1 attack and leadership + more weapon options, similar to guard etc.

But at what point do stat boosts and more weapon options become enough to differentiate a unit? Nobz are just boyz plus, even in lore, but I've never seen the same arguments for removing them as I have for veteran units in other factions. A Space Marine veteran squad that can take a power weapon and power fist instead of a special weapon and heavy weapon on the Tacticals is filling a different role, one specialised in melee. Doubly so if given an extra attack and Furious charge. I feel "but otherwise" is also doing a lot of heavy lifting, as having access to, say, infiltrate completely changes the capabilities and role of the unit.

Note: veterans could never take more than one special, one heavy, and sergeant upgrades in Codex: Space Marines. Sternguard when introduced could take two weapons, either of which could be special or heavy, and each model could upgrade their boltgun to a combi-weapon or stormbolter and had special issue ammunition. So quite a lot more going on.

Veterans could get more melee weapons however which shared space with assault marines and terminators and some other chapter specific units. Otherwise they were just a better tac squad.

Nobz have always been a different stat line, they had access to better armour, fnp, combi-weapons and a lot of gear not present on other units. They're different enough in my eyes to warrant it.

I come back to: trueborn are OK as a concept as long as they're not just kabalites with more blasters to shove in venoms and roll around blasting things, which is what they were previously. Nor if they're just another variation of kabalite with a marginal difference. They need a niche/purpose.

Dudeface wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

 Haighus wrote:
Elite units historically have often had more versatility and/or reliability than their line versions. The latter generally comes from slight stat improvements, but the former usually came from access to unusual equipment or different special rules, like Imperial Guard veterans getting infiltrate in the 3.5th codex or access to demolition charges and meltabombs in the 5th edition codex. Space Marine veterans had access to infiltrate/tank hunters/furious charge in 4th and could be much more melee focused in the 4th edition codex, which was later split into sternguard and vanguard with special issue ammunition and assault from deepstrike respectively.

Plus, stat boosts and equipment options can significantly change a unit in feel and role. A unit of nobz is "just" a unit of boyz with better stats and more weapon options... but in practice one works as a horde and the other as elite shock infantry.

Veterans just being a slight stat boost is not a consistent trend, and being unable to differentiate Trueborn would simply be a failure of imagination for GW's rules writers rather than a "historic" barrier.

As it happens, I don't think Space Marine veterans have ever just been Tactical Marines with more special weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
To be fair, Veteran Guardsmen (and Conscripts) no longer exist.

The Guard line-up is something of a mess.

There are basic Guardsmen, which is broadly the same it has been for about 3 decades- 1 special weapon, 1 heavy weapon.

Then there are more shooty Guardsmen who can take two special weapons, more punchy Guardsmen who can take two flamers, and more tough Guardsmen who can take... abit of a mess, but roughly 2-3 special weapons. But none of these are veteran Guardsmen in the codex, even though the official kit for one of those units comes in a box labelled with "veteran guardsmen"...

I agree with a lot of your points, but when people think of wanting trueborn they mean they want more darklight in the back of a venom, which is basically the only reason they were taken.

I'll take the chance to clarify, I'm not against trueborn as a completely new unit. I am against them coming back in their old guise. To exist now, I agree they need different stats/loadouts/rules and even then they're still a t3 body with a ranged poison weapon competing with kabalites.

I think that's fair.

Veteran marines had access to USRs back in the day as you note, but were otherwise +1 attack and leadership + more weapon options, similar to guard etc.

But at what point do stat boosts and more weapon options become enough to differentiate a unit? Nobz are just boyz plus, even in lore, but I've never seen the same arguments for removing them as I have for veteran units in other factions. A Space Marine veteran squad that can take a power weapon and power fist instead of a special weapon and heavy weapon on the Tacticals is filling a different role, one specialised in melee. Doubly so if given an extra attack and Furious charge. I feel "but otherwise" is also doing a lot of heavy lifting, as having access to, say, infiltrate completely changes the capabilities and role of the unit.

Note: veterans could never take more than one special, one heavy, and sergeant upgrades in Codex: Space Marines. Sternguard when introduced could take two weapons, either of which could be special or heavy, and each model could upgrade their boltgun to a combi-weapon or stormbolter and had special issue ammunition. So quite a lot more going on.

Veterans could get more melee weapons however which shared space with assault marines and terminators and some other chapter specific units. Otherwise they were just a better tac squad.

Nobz have always been a different stat line, they had access to better armour, fnp, combi-weapons and a lot of gear not present on other units. They're different enough in my eyes to warrant it.

I come back to: trueborn are OK as a concept as long as they're not just kabalites with more blasters to shove in venoms and roll around blasting things, which is what they were previously. Nor if they're just another variation of kabalite with a marginal difference. They need a niche/purpose.

Agree re. Trueborn.

I do wonder where the line is for "different enough to be worth it" is though. A veteran Space Marine in 3rd got +1 Ld over a normal Marine, and could pay for +1 attack too. That isn't all that different, which is probably why they added veteran skills in 4th. A Nob in 3rd got +1 strength, +1 wound, and +1 attack. That is definitely more of a change from the basic unit. Would +1 strength alone be enough? That is what differentiated skarboyz from boyz in 3rd. Orks also had half-way house units for equipment too, like 'ard boyz for 'eavy armour and flash gitz for kustom shootas (they were later changed to shooty nobz when nob options got drastically reduced in 4th edition).

Veteran guardsmen got +1 ballistic skill and +1 Ld. That made a huge difference to their reliability as a shooting unit (especially in 4th with target priority). As big a difference as nobz IMO, but only two stats were changed.

My point is that, at some level, most units in 40k are defined by diffences in stats and weapon loadouts, so at what point a unit that is an elite version of another unit becomes distinct isn't clear-cut IMO. Personally I've never had an issue with units that are functionally a full squad of sergeants from more basic units.

In 2024 I wouldn't bother with X+1 unit types. If I was doing Trueborn I'd just make them completely new. I.E. they don't need to be guys carrying Splinter Rifles+"more" special weapons. Give them some new weapon that has a distinct function versus basis Kabalites.

Same for Blood Brides and... the Wrack one.

Agreeing with all the sbove statements about Trueborn needing to become a new unit that fills a new niche.

And would like to add that one important reason for them to come back, that is not rules-related, is to expand the Kabal-section of the model range. It feels so… narrow that the only infantry units from the kabal-culture are warriors and archons. When they should kind of be the spine and face of the faction.

Regarding Trueborn, perhaps part of the problem is that the weapon selection is so dismal.

Even a unit as basic as guardsmen have Meltas, Flamers, Plasma and Grenade Launchers, as well as Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, Missile Launchers and Lascannons.

Meanwhile, the hyper-advanced Kabalites have Blaster and Shredder as their only specials, and Dark Lance and Splinter Cannon as their only heavies. So literally half the options of a guardsman squad.

And Trueborn have the exact same options. All four of them. At most, Trueborn can take more weapons, though sometimes they don't even get that.

Hell, even back in 5th, the only thing Trueborn got that Warriors didn't was the option to take an extra melee weapon. Because what I really want from a melee unit is WS4 S3 with no bonus to strength and no AP.

Also worth noting that even the Archon only has the Huskblade to set himself a smidge apart from the Dracon and Sabarite. Otherwise, it's the same Power Sword, Agoniser or Venom Blade for melee, coupled with either the trusty piddle-pistol or a gun with a range so short it would embarrass a dagger.

Put simply, where is the rest of their gear? Can Trueborn really not afford Shardcarbines, Heat Lances or Haywire Blasters?

Moreover, why are they (and the Archon) all stuck using the bog-standard versions of all weapons? Even if GW can't be arsed thinking of new weapons, could they not be wielding the equivalent of Master-Crafted versions? Just something to give them a little more bite and set them apart from the standard troops.

It seems there are plenty of directions you could take them, yet the only one GW ever picks is 'off a cliff'.

 vipoid wrote:
It seems there are plenty of directions you could take them, yet the only one GW ever picks is 'off a cliff'.

We all seem to agree that what is needed is for them to stand out (be that using new weapons or rules etc.)
Problem with that is due to GW-policy those kind of changes won’t be made without/before them getting a official model-kit. And since that has not happened the most they can do is give them some sort of upgrade rules for Warriors (as they did in 9th) or make them a legends unit (that is still limited to what you can build from the warriors kit, as they did in 8th).
Honestly I’m surprised, and glad, that they actually did that upgrade-thing in 9th. It showed a sort of understanding for the problem of the limited HQ-choices, as well as an interest, on the rules-writers’ part, of keeping the trueborn/bloodbrides/wrack+ units present or represented in -some- way.

 vipoid wrote:
Regarding Trueborn, perhaps part of the problem is that the weapon selection is so dismal.

Even a unit as basic as guardsmen have Meltas, Flamers, Plasma and Grenade Launchers, as well as Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, Missile Launchers and Lascannons.

Meanwhile, the hyper-advanced Kabalites have Blaster and Shredder as their only specials, and Dark Lance and Splinter Cannon as their only heavies. So literally half the options of a guardsman squad.

And Trueborn have the exact same options. All four of them. At most, Trueborn can take more weapons, though sometimes they don't even get that.

Hell, even back in 5th, the only thing Trueborn got that Warriors didn't was the option to take an extra melee weapon. Because what I really want from a melee unit is WS4 S3 with no bonus to strength and no AP.

Also worth noting that even the Archon only has the Huskblade to set himself a smidge apart from the Dracon and Sabarite. Otherwise, it's the same Power Sword, Agoniser or Venom Blade for melee, coupled with either the trusty piddle-pistol or a gun with a range so short it would embarrass a dagger.

Put simply, where is the rest of their gear? Can Trueborn really not afford Shardcarbines, Heat Lances or Haywire Blasters?

Moreover, why are they (and the Archon) all stuck using the bog-standard versions of all weapons? Even if GW can't be arsed thinking of new weapons, could they not be wielding the equivalent of Master-Crafted versions? Just something to give them a little more bite and set them apart from the standard troops.

It seems there are plenty of directions you could take them, yet the only one GW ever picks is 'off a cliff'.

I could have sworn one iteration of Truborn could have shard carbines (otherwise I would not have ordered Scourge arms off eBay to make mine). But yes, your observations are spot on.

I love veteran units where you get to arm them almost with whatever your want (like the variety of old Vet Guardsmen units). But kitbashing is really frowned upon in the current GW meta.

 KidCthulhu wrote:

I could have sworn one iteration of Truborn could have shard carbines (otherwise I would not have ordered Scourge arms off eBay to make mine). But yes, your observations are spot on.

I love veteran units where you get to arm them almost with whatever your want (like the variety of old Vet Guardsmen units). But kitbashing is really frowned upon in the current GW meta.

They could in 5th efition, when they were introduced.
My read on it is that it was basically what you where meant to do with the extra scourge arms, you got from equipping them with special weapons.
Those rules and model-kits in that re-launch was very smartly put together

I'd be okay with something new that has a new role, and I agree that the weapon selection is too lean, and that fixing that might be what we need to do good elites for each of Kabalites, Cults and Covens. But I was also fine with what 9th gave us; you can do fun stuff with bare heads for troops and helmets for elites- an old trick I picked up being a Sisters player in the lean years from 4th-8th.

Because for me, it's never been about gaming pieces; I wrote earlier about how these units, as well as lieutenant level commanders allow you to spin a narrative.

In a small army- let's just say HQ + 2 troops for each of the three troop types. Here, things are equal- you can't tell which of the three factions has the most prestige, and you'd be hard pressed to figure out by looking who even called the raid. Now drop the Haemonculus and Succubus down to lieutenant level and beef one Kabalite unit to Truborn, and suddenly I can tell that the Archon is the boss and likely called the raid.

And all that is before load out and stats.

The story of my DE army is that the Archon's splinter realm was devestated by the daemons that infiltrated Commorragh when Yvraine did her raise the dead thing. As such, the Truborn of his house have deserted him. He makes a deal with a Lhamaean to acquire poison distilleries; the two of them sponsor opposing Wych Cults, and the arena dead are gifted to a Haemonculus who lives in an obliette beneath the arena.

With elite units and lieutenant level leaders, the story makes sense and manifests on the table. Without those units, it's vaguely related fiction with no impact on the actual game whatsoever. I can approximate it using Crusade- my Archon can start Heroic (or even just Battle Hardened) while my Succubus and Haemonculus start green, but that takes some of the fun out of Crusading, as my Archon doesn't have far to go before he maxes out.

 Haighus wrote:
Plus, stat boosts and equipment options can significantly change a unit in feel and role. A unit of nobz is "just" a unit of boyz with better stats and more weapon options... but in practice one works as a horde and the other as elite shock infantry.

You would pick probably a perfect example where stat increases is enough to make for different units. Knobs are (in 10th Edition):

+1 Save

+1 Wound

-1 OC

+1 Strength & Attack (Close Combat Weapon)

Big Choppas instead of Choppas

Kombi-Weapon instead of Shoota

There is definitely a point where a few changes makes for a different unit and Knobs crossed that line with room to spare.

But none of these are veteran Guardsmen in the codex, even though the official kit for one of those units comes in a box labelled with "veteran guardsmen"...

Spoiler:

This Kill Team box is named Veteran Guardsmen to differentiate them from the Guardsmen Fire Team in the Kill Team Compendium. As you noted, there is no Veteran Guardsmen unit in 40K, where this box makes the Death Korps Of Krieg unit.

So just read the new WD mag showcasing new carnivore kroot lineup etc (wasn't new for me because I freq gw site anyway) and their lore bit has me scratch my head concerning TAU which were as far as I could tell the least evil of all the Xenos..

But now they are practically presented as literal slavedrivers rather than subgroups willingly joining them for the greater good.. or am I misreading something here?

Tau have always walked the line between "join us we are friends" and "join us or die".

I think its best to think of them as the least Xenophobic race in the Galaxy of the major races. They are willing to have other races as part of their social structure; but that doesn't mean everyone in their society is equal; treated as equal or there by pure free will.

Tau 100% do conquer worlds and take them from other races.

What Overread said. The Taus schtick isn't that they are xenophobic or religious fundamentalists, etc. like most factions It's that they are expansionsts and colonizers. Its a different flavor of bad guy that requires a bit more nuance to understand.

All are equal under the Greater Good, but some are More Equal Than Others.

Like the Great Crusade, if they can bring your planet into the fold peacefully through diplomacy? Groovy, baby! If not? Well I’m afraid it’s Smashing Your Face In O’Clock.

You’re not less of a mugger because you end your demand with “please” and say “thank you” when they’ve handed it over (and the watch!)

The current ambiguity over the Vespid’s Communion Helms points to this. Now, they could genuinely be the key to all diplomatic efforts, speaking each other’s language and understanding each other’s societal norms. Or, as is hinted, there could be incredibly nefarious things going on in that tech.

We’ve a good conversation going on in 40K Background about this sort of thing where essentially, if you look at things from certain angles, the Tau are either incredibly virtuous, or hideously malevolent, and indeed everything in between.

Tau are, in general, the least bad of the factions.
Don’t confuse that with being GOOD.

Saying they are the least bad isn't really accurate. There's nothing good about someone who shows up and says all your base are belong to us. Even if they seem like they go about it in a nice way, the truth of the matter is all your resources, your art, culture,society, history, and your future now belong to them and they will do with that as they please whether you like it or not. They've already demonstrated themselves to not be above genocide and xenophobia where it makes sense (see also their purge of the "hateful Reek"). Just because they ask questions befire pulling the trigger doesn't really make them less bad than those races who pull the trigger first. They're differently bad, but not really more good.

The 3rd edition Tau codex (their first codex) explicitly stated that "the Tau are not overtly hostile" and that "The Tau Empire also encompasses several alien races who have been subsumed into the empire voluntarily or whose services are bought through trade agreement", with nothing to overtly contradict either statement.

This depiction has changed considerably over the years, presumably to better align the Tau with the general 'grim darkness' of 40K, and neither statement appears in the current codex, where the Tau's entreatment to other races is explicitly referred to as "Gunboat Diplomacy" and it's stated that races that won't join "cannot be left to threaten the Empire in their ignorance".

So, it's been a fairly substantial change in depiction, but not a particularly huge stretch to interpret the earlier depictions as Tau propaganda

Or both are true. Earlier on Tau were weaker and more likely to push for peaceful integrations, while later they have become more powerful themselves and more jaded after running into factions like the Tyranids, Necrons, Orks, and Imperium, and decided that expansion is necessary, peaceful or not.

It might also be that Tau early expansions were more peaceful as they started exploring, settling and gaining new worlds. However as they expanded they encountered more violent races over and over again. There's been a clear escalation and need to expand as they realise that things like the Imperium might just be as big as they claim and its not propaganda!

Or that literal demons could be some kind of twisted reality

So they've gone from steady explore and expand into rapid expansion and that necessitates more swift conquest/aggressive diplomacy than in the past.


Also when it comes to codex the content can vary depending on the aspect it focuses on. Most codex have a focus for the narrative which can even be the choice of narrators voice for the codex. Eg early Tyranid ones were very much written from the view of Imperial Scientists whilst more recent ones include more overall narrator voices and then dip into race specific viewpoints (often Imperial).
Plus in general we see each codex advance the story somewhat with earlier parts of the narrative covered by earlier books often being more glossed over and whatever core current story is the focus becomes the main element. So you can certainly have elements change between codex reflecting shifts and changes in the factions over time; or even in different regions where different military operations in in effect

It's pretty explicit if you've been with 40k for more than one edition.

The T'au were more peaceful, then came the Orks, then the Drukahri, then the Imperium, then the Tyranids, then the forces of Chaos, then the Necrons.

Now the T'au don't take risks. The Water Caste still makes diplomatic overtures but the Fire and Air Castes are always there to make sure whoever the diplomats are speaking to understand that the T'au aren't taking no for an answer anymore.

Fool me once into thinking Titans are real or that giving a welcome party to necrons is a bad idea...we are going to build our own titans and stop taking no for an answer when we want that useful territory so we dont get fooled again

The thing is, the T’au can lead with offers of alliance and/or trade and have them be sincerely accepted even now, and still honour them. They just won’t mention the plastek fist of the Fire Caste that was previously heralded as a defence against pirates or whatever can just as easily punch you in the face.

I know we're going to be light on News and Rumors for the near future, but the pros and cons of T'au diplomacy are neither News nor Rumors...