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By eck this game is utterly brutal, Infantry in the open are basically dead, infantry in cover are dead to serious fire but in general other units probably have more important targets. and due to the first point if you cannot get to charge range without being seen approaching is suicidal.

That said, its the same for both players, and the game flows nicely to boot, terrain needs thinking about, we played on a 4x4 at 750 points (reflecting what we both had painted), with just marine armies, both an infantry and an armoured force. using the D3+1 terrain per quarter and some decent sized buildings and a smattering of woods.

Infantry transports are going to be a serious requirement for bodies that are not sitting backfield in cover, ideally out of sight.

Terminator deep strike is useful, drop near an objective, hope to survive, ideally behind armour so only turret weapons can hit you, then charge to get on the objective - you cannot pin tanks but if they move away to disengage done right they are not within 3" of the objective so even if you die they may not get it back - after dropping near enough to take it from them - screening is important as it should be. And you only need do this for one turn to get ahead in VP in a way thats quite hard to claw back.

Melee charges v vehicles with infantry are good in theory, vehicles can "simply" drive away, I think to make that work you need more activations so the charge can go through after the armour has already activated.

larger units are interesting, I had a pair of Kratos, facing a unit of four - they were a lot more robust, naturally, but essentially faced serious overkill issues, and struggled to avoid being flanked by multiple, smaller, units - this feels about right but I suspect there is going to be an art form in unit size

Aircraft are quite powerful, which they should be for the high cost the come with

the order sequence is sensible, can't speak for melee as nothing lived long enough to get there, and this is with "only" 750 points on the table

Both agreed the supplied counters suck and blow at the same time and will be sourcing replacements

Thanks for report! I recommend increasing the point size to 1500 or more ASAP, the report I've seen only start to feel like the Epic of old around that mark.. Other than that, your experiences reflect what I have already assessed from the few batreps out there.

Keeping my eye out on great looking 3rd party order tokens as well

 tauist wrote:
Thanks for report! I recommend increasing the point size to 1500 or more ASAP, the report I've seen only start to feel like the Epic of old around that mark.. Other than that, your experiences reflect what I have already assessed from the few batreps out there.

Keeping my eye out on great looking 3rd party order tokens as well

aim is to expand the forces to about 3,500 each to have some options. We both have various knights and Titans so its really about getting large enough to start to include them, which I think will escalate rapidly.

can see having a lot of infantry, and if only a 5x4 board its going to get crowded very quickly

and then thinned out even faster

Had a small game and a big one.

Lethality was lower than expected (but is still high), compared to Epic Armageddon. After all in LI detachments don't get additional casualties due to losing combats and taking blast markers when broken, so things even out.

Also infantry was sticking to cover big time.

Some troops seem way better points wise than others (Kratos>Malcadors; bombers better than fighters for the same points; infantry in general > tanks - missile launchers just over the top).

Did find a quartet of heavy support marines were able to reasonably reliably delete enough of an infantry unit in a turn the infantry wanted an early bath

will try with Rhinos next time, so they at least have to zap the transports first

was thinking of larger infantry units to take the hits and hit back, I'm actually thinking now no more than six stands, and have more units - given stuff cannot generally split fire I think this is a way to force overkill while leaving other units hardly touched

have not yet tried it

For glowing up the tokens

I saw that video, and having tried to punch out the tokens I have and had about a third of them rip in some way - usually bringing part of the backing tissue thin "card" with them I can see why he uses that punch

already a fair few options on etsy and similar for pre-made ones and I expect a fair few of the places that do MDF tokens will have them in the range soon enough

Ran a second game today, 1,360 points - oddball size but its what my opponent had painted up.

Him two demi-companies as the sneaky swine got hold of a second box of marine infantry, then an armoured marine company and one of the scary big knights.

my lot was a single demi-company and two armoured formations, one of predators and one of sicarans, both with a pair of Kratos

think we got more of the rules right this time, very close game, my lot leading until the final turn, virtually wiped out but if I had held an objective for longer, or could roll a 4+ for a terminator save I would have swung it

points of note:
- Assault Marines are seriously nasty when they actually get to assault
- Knights are scary and will do some damage but only needs a bit of poor luck and they go down to laser cannon fire - the trick is getting enough stuff in range at the same time it can't kill them all
- the morale bit about forcing units onto "fall back" is nasty, especially if they have yet to fire
- formations breaking is also nasty, denying Charge orders and First fire orders especially
- for all the fuss about infantry in buildings being impossible to hit we have found they are hardly shot at, usually a more important target thats more dangerous initially. May change in larger games
- Rhinos are golden for keeping infantry alive and getting the jump on mid field objectives, key to grab VP early on to put an enemy on the back foot can lead to an easier life. mobility really is critical here

a good game, close, and was very interesting noting the victory score as the game progressed did not reflect the casualties caused

Break denies march and first fire. Charge is fine.

Pg 63. Formation that is Broken may only be issued an Advance
Order or Charge Order in any following Orders phases

And gee. Not shooting at infantrv at garrison just shows how they are impossible to hit or if they were in wild open would they still been ignored? Sounds rather that terrain did it's job protecting infantry from instant death.

Leopard did you find the Rhinos made that much of a difference mobility-wise? If be interested to know as movement wise infantry are way faster than in previous editions with that triple move.

Also how did you find infantry shooting at each other? I worried it would be a bit like that but in Police Squad where they are literally 10ft from each other having a shoot-out Or does it not feel that different to previous games?

Rhino march double, disembark, infantry move itself.

You can get infantry up to 24" and shoot or 34" without shooting vs 5" or 15"

Yeah Rhinos mean midfield Structures or terrain can be occupied in one turn, key to get there first.

 Pacific wrote:
Leopard did you find the Rhinos made that much of a difference mobility-wise? If be interested to know as movement wise infantry are way faster than in previous editions with that triple move.

Also how did you find infantry shooting at each other? I worried it would be a bit like that but in Police Squad where they are literally 10ft from each other having a shoot-out Or does it not feel that different to previous games?

the mobility boost was significant, while moving 18" (Rhino March order) v 15" (Infantry March order) doesn't feel like much and on paper its not, what it means is the infantry take up a lot less space while also being safe from small arms fire.

used in this game with one unit to get behind some containers, and stayed loaded, following turn was a smaller move up, advance orders on Rhino and marines, dismount onto an empty objective and used the rhinos for some supporting fire (one havoc shot into a knight!!!! which did nothing). Other was a jump forwards, dismount and advance up to a building for a fight the following turn.

as against the first game where they basically all died on the approach to frag rounds, here they could jump the gap to where they were out of sight.

also the Rhinos sticking about allowed them to provide additional fire that would take Light AT or Anti Tank shots to remove - diluting enemy fire somewhat, both from the infantry and from other armour. And even an empty Rhino can grab an objective with no one else on it

as for firing at each other, there was a lot of small arms fire, and heavy bolter fire, not a massive effect, but some, didn't feel like infantry v infantry is "DELETE" against whoever doesn't fire first, while it also didn't feel pointless


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 westiebestie wrote:
Yeah Rhinos mean midfield Structures or terrain can be occupied in one turn, key to get there first.

yes, a first turn scoring more than an opponent matters a lot.

also in this game my opponent only just, on the 5th turn, turned the game, if they had Rhinos as well they could have advanced a lot faster, where as they only left the buildings the smurf-cowards were hiding in once most of my army was gone - and on foot they never got to the objectives mid field, was his few remaining vehicles that managed it

Movement matters..

in a GW game at that...

what is this? Heresy!

ahh yes.. as you were

Another game, managed a win this time. Actually liking the progressive scoring - opponent punished for sitting back to shoot after I advanced, had they come out to play a turn earlier they would have won, and taken higher casualties

sitting back on "First Fire" can lay down some serious pain, but the way the scenarios are you need to be grabbing objectives fast - I had two central ones on the first turn, and only lost one of them on T4, the other would have fallen T5 but by then it was too late.

Learnt though with infantry, Solar Auxilia infantry especially, go big or don't bother, and seriously watch the break point.

also that enemy marines sitting in buildings, apart from their rocket launchers, which are irritating, can largely be ignored. if they are not on an objective that is.

building assaults are.. interesting.. you need the numbers or forget it, but even in defeat assault marines can pin down a much larger unit in engagement for a turn or so

there is literally no reason not to overwatch aircraft, unless you have skyfire its a 6 to hit anyway, and its important to bring the sods down quickly. conversely, when bringing aircraft on care is needed to stay out of range of anything able to throw a fair few dice at them

next up is to step up to ~2k and bring in the legion rules

leopard wrote:

there is literally no reason not to overwatch aircraft, unless you have skyfire its a 6 to hit anyway, and its important to bring the sods down quickly. conversely, when bringing aircraft on care is needed to stay out of range of anything able to throw a fair few dice at them

Well apart from losing ability shoot other units like those leman russ with vanquishers about to pulp your kratos tanks to pieces.

tneva82 wrote:

leopard wrote:

there is literally no reason not to overwatch aircraft, unless you have skyfire its a 6 to hit anyway, and its important to bring the sods down quickly. conversely, when bringing aircraft on care is needed to stay out of range of anything able to throw a fair few dice at them

Well apart from losing ability shoot other units like those leman russ with vanquishers about to pulp your kratos tanks to pieces.

oh be real, my Kratos have usually already died at this point..

though today did see a Baneblade, four Vanquishers and a pair of Malcadors fire their longer range guns at a triplet of Kratos, missed with every shot.

the Kratos moved up and returned the favour, some Xiphon arrived, and also missed.. to much amusement on both sides of the table.

then a pair of Sentinels splatted the Xiphon with Krak missiles..

then the Kratos were obliterated

Kratos = fire magnets, well mine are, my opponents are apparently unable to fail a save

point taken though, but for now I've found splatting aircraft as soon as possible is a very good idea

leopard wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

leopard wrote:

there is literally no reason not to overwatch aircraft, unless you have skyfire its a 6 to hit anyway, and its important to bring the sods down quickly. conversely, when bringing aircraft on care is needed to stay out of range of anything able to throw a fair few dice at them

Well apart from losing ability shoot other units like those leman russ with vanquishers about to pulp your kratos tanks to pieces.

oh be real, my Kratos have usually already died at this point..

though today did see a Baneblade, four Vanquishers and a pair of Malcadors fire their longer range guns at a triplet of Kratos, missed with every shot.

the Kratos moved up and returned the favour, some Xiphon arrived, and also missed.. to much amusement on both sides of the table.

then a pair of Sentinels splatted the Xiphon with Krak missiles..

then the Kratos were obliterated

Kratos = fire magnets, well mine are, my opponents are apparently unable to fail a save

point taken though, but for now I've found splatting aircraft as soon as possible is a very good idea

It's too easy to kill planes with ground fire IMO.

inclined to agree, largely because of the volume of fire available so fishing for the odd 6 works - plus little reason not to overwatch when its a six to hit anyway.

aircraft are expensive, I wonder if what is needed is the removal of the "a six always hits"

leopard wrote:
inclined to agree, largely because of the volume of fire available so fishing for the odd 6 works - plus little reason not to overwatch when its a six to hit anyway.

aircraft are expensive, I wonder if what is needed is the removal of the "a six always hits"

Oh gee. Unkillable units have proven to be popular soo often(never).

And funny how one of the best unit types need buffing. How big point increase you are willing to accept?

tneva82 wrote:

leopard wrote:
inclined to agree, largely because of the volume of fire available so fishing for the odd 6 works - plus little reason not to overwatch when its a six to hit anyway.

aircraft are expensive, I wonder if what is needed is the removal of the "a six always hits"

Oh gee. Unkillable units have proven to be popular soo often(never).

And funny how one of the best unit types need buffing. How big point increase you are willing to accept?

hence my comment elsewhere that there needs to be a way to roll a 7, 8 or 9 as with earlier editions - specifically to make stuff unkillable a thing thats just not there.

and yes it would need to see a points adjustment, as present aircraft drop too easily to volume of fire, though this can be avoided with careful placement on flanks and not going too far onto the table.

that said I think the system for them is a bit odd anyway, the way Battletech handles aircraft makes a lot more sense

basically, nominate a point on one table side, and a point on the opposite table side - the aircraft will make a straight line pass along that line. it can make its attacks from any point on the line, and it can be attacked at any point along the line, either before it fires or after it fires

then if you want to drop to "hover" with an aircraft capable of it you do so at any point along the line (not in the end phase, but as the end of the aircrafts movement)

what we have currently is a very simplified system, it works, I think it needs some adjustment though - which would have to consider points adjustments

however the current "only a natural six can hit" when for a fair few weapons they would only hit on a four or five anyway and would only hit on a six in overwatch anyway doesn't feel right, there are a few ways to skin this particular cat

I think for AA and the problem of just dumping everything and hoping for 6's is its just not a very good representation of how actually difficult it is to hit a plane with weapon that aren't dedicated to that role. The ease at which mass fire from a tank detachment can hit a plane just sorta devalues dedicated/high quality AA, now some of those weapons also get stuff like tracking, but it's also not like AA is expensive for marines or solar aux, it's quite affordable and can often be infiltrated or always in the case of solar aux.

The added complication is planes with hover can come in in hover mode if they want to, which means they're skimmers temporarily and los all of a sudden matters again, so you can be very cynical with say a fire raptor or storm eagle, come in out of los of most stuff and just fire at max range.

thats a d6 based system for you, especially with no mechanism for a 7, 8 or 9 as earlier editions had. it doesn't get any harder than a 6

and seeing stuff it either being hit by a lascannon on a 4+ or is being hit on a 6 for various reasons, with rare shots hitting on a 5 thats what we are stuck with

and yes the skimmer mode works, though to be honest my Xiphon are coming in and positioning to be at maximum range to their target, which tends to be in the enemy advanced area to minimise return fire

Well the obvious would be only flak weapons can shoot aircraft, ala Epic :A.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Well the obvious would be only flak weapons can shoot aircraft, ala Epic :A.

it would make a lot of sense to bring in something like this, based, loosely on Flames of War..

Skyfire: may fire at Flier units without penalty
Flier: may only be fired upon by weapons with Skyfire, are by the target of the Fliers who may only hit on a natural six - when a Flier nominates its target, if the target has not yet activated to shoot, it may fire in self defence, hitting on a natural six only, and do so prior to the Flier attacking

point, flak units work as intended, other units only fire at aircraft that are actually attacking them as presumably they have better things to do

I think you approach it from one of two ways, either make it so non skyfire weapons can only target flyers at half range OR you make up some flyer ace special rule for planes that allows them to take both armour AND jink assuming they get armour to begin with. The latter probably runs into problem with white scars because it'd get a little too good.

I think once we see/experience for ourselves detachments of like 3-4 flyers/bombers we'll all start to complain less about how easy it is to down flyers as failure to do so, especially with bombers, is likely to be deadly af. Especially that heavy bomber for solar aux. I still sorta dislike that running only a few planes is such a liability but in larger games I also sorta get it being unthinkable to just run like 2 planes, with both sides having cheap AA too.

real issue will be when people start with printed bomber wings instead of maybe a pair of them, bring on, half get shot down, whats left flattens anything valuable


Automatically Appended Next Post:
note also with Flame of War, you are limited to a single air support option, so limited ability to fire back is good

note that Team Yankee is similar, but allows more air support and have helicopter gunships making pop up attacks from outside the range of most AA

that game became bring a lot of air, as in 6 Hind and 6 Frogfoot, or don't bring any

leopard wrote:
real issue will be when people start with printed bomber wings instead of maybe a pair of them, bring on, half get shot down, whats left flattens anything valuable


Automatically Appended Next Post:
note also with Flame of War, you are limited to a single air support option, so limited ability to fire back is good

note that Team Yankee is similar, but allows more air support and have helicopter gunships making pop up attacks from outside the range of most AA

that game became bring a lot of air, as in 6 Hind and 6 Frogfoot, or don't bring any

Well a core balance problem im feeling in general with LI is very few detachments seem "limited" in terms of unit cap, so like the ability to find something good and spam it isn't really controlled at all with the odd exception of knights and titans which seem pretty well controlled for with the 30%.


At sorta mid point levels like 1500, I still wish planes weren't as easy to counter, because its also a detriment to planes being their own ultimate counter. I'm just thinking like either a scenario rule or an upgrade you buy called fighter ace or something or ace pilot, and it lets you take jink as an additional save on top of armour, if any. I'm just worried about white scars taking that idea and sorta ruining it lol

But ya I just wish if both myself and my opponent were only running 1-3 flyers there was some way to make groundfire less able to dumpfire and hope for 6's.

a lot needs time to shake out, however the ability to say go "Every tank is a Vanquisher!" with zero limit or cost penalty (well other than for every four or five units of eight you need a 100 point baneblade) is likely to get silly

leopard wrote:
a lot needs time to shake out, however the ability to say go "Every tank is a Vanquisher!" with zero limit or cost penalty (well other than for every four or five units of eight you need a 100 point baneblade) is likely to get silly

They go up to 10 lol, it's that silly, i think 10 vanqs is like 395pts, probably scariest unit in the game

This was my point when people were losing their minds over combined breaking point numbers, formations control like nothing if you don't limit formations themselves. If solar aux wants they can basically infiltrate whole armies, or take tiny extra formations to get more hq's/commanders.

I think that's my biggest concern as I slowly creep up point levels of games, myself and opponent simply being able to field more and more of "the good stuff" so to speak. I really do hope once the expansion comes out, the sheer volume of what's "good" balances itself out in terms of at least being varied, I'd rather face a strong combined arms army than a skew list, like mostly russes or mostly planes.

don't have to limit formation numbers, you can have one honking great one, or many smaller ones

still think we would be better with more of the later 1st edition lists with the defined structure and some things only available at Battalion and Regimental level not company level, or the cards of second where it would have been very easy to make for example Vanquishers a support card and not a company card