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Hey all!

I haven’t seen one of these threads for a while since then we got Bellakor, Vashtorr, Leagues of Vottan, Angron and the lion. And I think only the latter was predicted by anyone.

Vashtorr and the Lion have been the biggest players in the narrative (I think) and it seems there is much more for Vashtorr to do in building his key or whatever he’s doing and his reassembley of Caliban. But where it goes from here I don’t know. I can only guess that Fulgrim will be returned to play a part in Vashtorrs scheme which will go bit quite to plan (again) by the next loyalist primarch to return

So what do you think?

Well, I’m hoping for something regarding the Ynnari. They’re a loose thread that’s been flopping around for much too long, and I’d welcome more info and maybe even a dedicated Codex.

Lore wise. Whilst likely not a popular one? I want to see the death of Abaddon. Whilst central to many events, he’s a bit boring these days. Have him bumped off, Chaos scatter, and become a mess of multiple threats all doing their own thing. Let Chaos be actually chaotic for a change, rather than suspiciously well organised. Or at least have him removed from the galactic arena for a good while.

It does feel like eldar should have something to say about a lot of the shenanigans that have been going on.

It would make sense if eldar, lov & Trazyn were all holding things that Vashtorr was after.

It’s an interesting idea to kill off the black legion and have its members scatter the old legions and other warbands. I have been wanting different chaos entities to setup their empires in the materium

Not necessarily kill off the Black Legion. Just see it scattered, if not shattered by the loss of the lynchpin that is Abaddon.

I also agree that it feels about time the Eldar did something in the setting that was big, showy and not just helping the Imperial side not lose everything.

As for what it is I think its tied heavily to models and how much and what direction GW wants to invest in. Craftworld STILL has gaps in its release in terms of updating finecast and so forth. Warp Spiders come to mind!

They also have a lot of older vehicles and such that could do with a general update and improvement; plus a lot of Forgewrold models that GW could port over into plastics.



So one potential is they do nothing and then next edition they are the second "chosen faction" in the starter box getting a big update; a load of new things and doing a big thing in the setting like striking back against the Tyranids or such.

Yinnari could be part of that; however I feel like GW management has had a change of heart with them. At conception they were very much a low investment "new army that's just two armies mashed together." Which works, but its also really low investment and isn't as exciting as a totally new thing. It also didn't help that Craftworld at the time was woefully behind on everything.


So we could have GW give Yinnari more models of their own; representing a prolonged period during which time the various Eldar groups have been operating together and started to perhaps move out of their original styles and into a unique one for the Yinnari forces. Craftworld with some spikes; Dark Eldar with less spikes; Corsairs and Exodites appearing.



Another option is to FINALLY stop teasing Exodites in the lore and have them take a step into the active setting. Perhaps sparked by Yinnari and thus shedding their older belief (new young hotblood generation) of hiding and instead going full military active. The bonus here is that whilst it is more Eldar, its able to go in a really new creative directions that Eldar haven't been in before. The downside is it means way more investment to make them their own thing.


Corsairs are, I feel, a bit like Harliquins - they work as a small scale attachment to a bigger force; but aren't really diverse/big enough to really stand on their own in a visual/creative sense. Ergo GW could make them work but they'd half a dozen kits and most of those would be leaders and it won't be as exciting as regular armies.






Big lore wise I'd also welcome half the Imperium falling. I feel like GW was going that direction for a time but pulled back; I'd still welcome it as I feel it would give the setting creative room; something that just feels lacking in 40K these days (esp with the sea of 30K games in specialist division). It would be great to see more smaller Xenos factions get a leg up because the Imperium lost half its dominion due to Chaos and thus enters a new phase where there's one half that's probably doing alright for itself; and another that's fallen into not full Chaos; but into a huge territory that everyone goes nuts over fighting for.

Well, models wise Craftworlders did really well last edition, and we look to be on course for all Aspects to be in plastic by the end of this edition.

If memory serves (and I always forget one of the aspects), it’s Swooping Hawks, Fire Dragons and Warp Spiders left.

Of course, that there remains quite a lot in need of an update speaks to how badly neglected they’ve been traditionally.

Narratively I’d like to see a Yannari Craftworld in its own right, a proper base of operations. If we go right, right back to their original Lore, Craftworlds started out as colossal transport ships, which would ply the void pre-Fall. As essentially generational ships, their inhabitants were spared the worst of the degeneration. And those who remained least tainted boarded them to get the heck out of dodge.

Their growth into what we know today was gradual, each surviving and thriving ship being expanded, sometimes absorbing other ships into the superstructure.

As such, there’s little reason Yannari couldn’t do the same, with no need to takeover a given Craftworld - though I could see a smaller, lesser known or never mentioned Craftworld being the starting point, seeing a chance for renewal and rebirth in Ynnead.

This would represent them not being a passing fad, but a whole new Eldar Civilisation starting to take root proper.

Yeah I think Yinnari just needs to establish an identity for itself. Is it purely a more fluffy merging of two existing armies with only 3 leader models of its own unique to itself; or is it going to be a whole army of its own. Or will it just drift into the background lore as GW more consolidates those models into existing forces (and I feel has a bias toward just being rolled more into Craftworld)


Or perhaps it all sparks the core Craftworlders themselves to change so instead Yinnari steps back and Craftworld steps into hte fore taking charge of the new hotblood generation to drive them into battle and all and Yinnari just becomes another "Avatar of Khaine" type model within the army which can also be taken by Dark Eldar.

I would like to see Eldar get active in the setting. They've been the dying race that operates in the shadows for ages now and honestly whilst that has played out in some major lore events; they almost feel like they always foreshadow other(Imperial) factions getting the juicy fun stuff.

I definitely want Yannri to feel dynamic in the background. The young go-getters not content to simply stave off extinction, or waste their long lives trying to extend them further. But going out there, not just putting out fires but sweeping away anything that looks remotely like kindling.

See the base impulses of the Dark Eldar tempered by the cautious reserve of the Craftworlds. See the Eldar properly master their nature.

Hard pass on the killing of Abaddon.

Also, Chaos is not "suspiciously well organised", it's literally Abaddon and Vashtorr manipulating events to suit their own individual ends.
It's not suspicious when GW has spelled it out that all these warbands with Arks of Omen kicking about were given them as gifts to cause problems while the new Chaos Power Couple did shenanigans.

Powerful warlords making an alliance of convenience and then using lesser commanders as bait or distractions is how Chaos has always worked.

Having no driving force behind the forces of Chaos is how the Imperium got 2k years of relative peace prior to the War of the Beast. If there is no driving force, then Chaos ceases to be a threat because there is nothing stopping them all trying to kill each other and not the Imperium.

The dark imperium officially being dropped by the imperium would be an interesting one. There would be a lot of space marine chapters that would have to find their own reasons to exists, some would go noble, some would go rogue. And who knows what they humans, Xenos, cultists and other being might a hive if they suddenly realise that it might be a good idea, occasionally, to stop trying to kill each other and work together when the nids show up.

Apparently there's a new lore bit that involves a Votann force being hired as mercenaries by an Imperium planetary governor to help defend against a Chaos attack. And a bunch of the Ironkin mixed in with the Votann suddenly turn to Chaos during the middle of the attack. Valrak, who doesn't appear to be all that familiar with the Votann lore, thinks that this means that we'll see Chaos Votann, like a 40K version of Chaos Dwarves. I'm not so sure about that, particularly since the lore snippet only mentions the Ironkin being corrupted, and not the Votann themselves.

However, I *could* see corrupted Ironkin showing up in a Dark Mechanicum force. Ideally, we'd see a vs. box set release that has Dark Mechanicum versus... elements of the long-awaited Votann second wave.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I want to see the death of Abaddon. Whilst central to many events, he’s a bit boring these days. Have him bumped off, Chaos scatter, and become a mess of multiple threats all doing their own thing. Let Chaos be actually chaotic for a change, rather than suspiciously well organised. Or at least have him removed from the galactic arena for a good while.

Abaddon boring? The guy responsible for the singlemost catastrophic event in the galaxy for the past 10 millenia? The specifically not-human who's been arguably more effective at enacting change than even the Primarchs? Just to find a reason to "scatter chaos" like it can't be "chaotic" post galactic mega-rift?

Wut?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Lore wise. Whilst likely not a popular one? I want to see the death of Abaddon. Whilst central to many events, he’s a bit boring these days. Have him bumped off, Chaos scatter, and become a mess of multiple threats all doing their own thing. Let Chaos be actually chaotic for a change, rather than suspiciously well organised. Or at least have him removed from the galactic arena for a good while.

Eh...

GW is the only reason why Chaos is the way that it is. We've had at least one other powerful leader for decades now in Huron Blackheart. There's no reason why GW couldn't have done something productive with him if they had wanted. Further, we now have three (soon to be four) Chaos Primarchs back in the game. Any of them could start something if they wanted to. And it appears that Vashtorr - who has literally come out of nowhere - is actually starting something.

No reason yet to kill Abaddon.

Eumerin wrote:
Apparently there's a new lore bit that involves a Votann force being hired as mercenaries by an Imperium planetary governor to help defend against a Chaos attack. And a bunch of the Ironkin mixed in with the Votann suddenly turn to Chaos during the middle of the attack. Valrak, who doesn't appear to be all that familiar with the Votann lore, thinks that this means that we'll see Chaos Votann, like a 40K version of Chaos Dwarves. I'm not so sure about that, particularly since the lore snippet only mentions the Ironkin being corrupted, and not the Votann themselves.

However, I *could* see corrupted Ironkin showing up in a Dark Mechanicum force. Ideally, we'd see a vs. box set release that has Dark Mechanicum versus... elements of the long-awaited Votann second wave.

I’ve seen this somewhere, it’s interesting that only the iron king went crazy. Isn’t there suggestion that the iron kin are related to the men of iron that turned on humanity millennia ago? Which suggest it might have been chaos that corrupted them in the past? Having vashtorr turning some of the iron kin to chaos would be a good way to loop in the LOV to recent events and also create tensions between the imperium and LOV.

They may have even corrupted one of the ancestor cores

It’s almost certainly just Vashtorr infecting them. Possibly forcing Daemons into Ironkin for lols.

Original Men of Iron probably just did a bog standard AI Rebellion. Because slavery sucks.

There is definitely an example of an old Men of Iron production line corrupted by Chaos in the Gaunts Ghost series. Impossible to say if that was a common factor in the legendary war between humans and AI.

Something with Tau and the Kroot, surely, since they're releasing some new models?

 Da Boss wrote:
Something with Tau and the Kroot, surely, since they're releasing some new models?

See that's something that I'd like to see happen if the Imperium fell in half. It would give Tau a LOT more scope to do stuff without the ever present "If the Imperium bothers with them they are dead" angle. Cut the Imperium in half and you've still got a LOT of power in the Imperium, but there's also a lot more fragmentation and races like Tau can get their head up a bit more in the lore and do some more major tricks.

 Overread wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Something with Tau and the Kroot, surely, since they're releasing some new models?

See that's something that I'd like to see happen if the Imperium fell in half. It would give Tau a LOT more scope to do stuff without the ever present "If the Imperium bothers with them they are dead" angle. Cut the Imperium in half and you've still got a LOT of power in the Imperium, but there's also a lot more fragmentation and races like Tau can get their head up a bit more in the lore and do some more major tricks.

I'll have to check the maps again but I'm pretty sure Tau are on the wrong side of the rift to prosper from Imperium nihilus.

mrFickle wrote:


I’ve seen this somewhere, it’s interesting that only the iron king went crazy. Isn’t there suggestion that the iron kin are related to the men of iron that turned on humanity millennia ago? Which suggest it might have been chaos that corrupted them in the past? Having vashtorr turning some of the iron kin to chaos would be a good way to loop in the LOV to recent events and also create tensions between the imperium and LOV.

They may have even corrupted one of the ancestor cores

The Votann are naturally resistant to Chaos due to genetics, iirc. The Ironkin don't have those protections, since they're machines.

There are no indications that Ironkin are necessarily related to the Men of Iron (for one thing, apparently they're not as super-intelligent and ambitious as the Men of Iron were), so I would be very cautious about drawing conclusions like that. Also, there's no indication that the Men of Iron rebellion was caused by Chaos. AFAIK, the only Man of Iron that we've seen that dates back to the rebellion showed no signs of Chaos taint.

There's no reason to think that Chaos can infect the ancestor cores without getting physical access to them.

I think that both in terms of the narrative and the models expected to release, that sometime later in 10th we're going to get Emperor's Children vs Drukhari in a battle for Commorragh.

That's a fairly big unresolved thing going on, Emp Children are almost 100% getting a release this edition and Drukhari need a lot of model updates.

Given that Space Marines also need to be tied into everything, maybe Jaghatai Khan is involved as well?

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Something with Tau and the Kroot, surely, since they're releasing some new models?

See that's something that I'd like to see happen if the Imperium fell in half. It would give Tau a LOT more scope to do stuff without the ever present "If the Imperium bothers with them they are dead" angle. Cut the Imperium in half and you've still got a LOT of power in the Imperium, but there's also a lot more fragmentation and races like Tau can get their head up a bit more in the lore and do some more major tricks.

I'll have to check the maps again but I'm pretty sure Tau are on the wrong side of the rift to prosper from Imperium nihilus.

Thing is they don't have to be. Even if they are "on the wrong side" you can get the Imperiums first mission isn't going to be dealing with a fringe faction; its going to be reconnecting to its other half. So I'd figure the Imperium would be armouring and fighting all along the core of the Galaxy even more; focusing on trying to reclaim as many worlds as its lost. Leaving the fringe open game for the Tau to go wild in

Plus, the turmoil plays to the Empire’s strength.

Oh hi, Imperial Planet. Boy you look short on supplies. Maybe Honest Eddie Water-caste can lend you a hand? We’ve lots to spare. Oh and I did mention that on our way over, Mad Keith O’Fire-caste took out an Orky fleet?

Muscle in. Provide succour and support. Usurp the Imperium.

Indeed and the Imperium really can't contend with it because they've shunted everything they can to the core to reclaim it and get half their Imperium back before it falls to Chaos/Xenos/Infighting.


You could even have a race within the Imperium too - one faction being more the Old Guard keen to restore the original order that's been the case for the last 10K years over the reclaimed worlds; and another let by Robo on a Crusade trying to bring a few (shock horror) new ideas and such.

So even if the Imperium finds new space lanes and starts reclaiming worlds it could be a huge political split

Yeah I'm with both of you on these things and it's what I was hoping since I read the 8th Edition BRB.
Unfortunately despite dakkanauts claiming otherwize one has the feeling that the narrative isn't actually progressing but got into another Status quo. Before you had Armageddon and Ghazghkulls great waaagh and the 13th crusade forming now you have the Pariah Nexus and the plague Stars and Leviathan doing something, but also nothing really finishing. It's just different warzones than before, but still warzones where the Imperium has pyrrhic victory after pyrrhic victory.
And Abby feels like: Welp, I didn't think I'd actually win, uh, what am I doing next? Well, let's do that Vigilus thingy and see what's going on next.

The Lore will always end up in the Status Quo because no one wants their faction written out of the game functionally speaking.

No one wants to be the "weakest faction in lore" that is "going nowhere and being defeated on all fronts".

Which is basically what you need for the status to change.


At least cutting the Imperium in half they'd still be the biggest singular power in the Galaxy

That, and it reflects real world stuff. Even where an empire might fall, you still have a tangle of events which take place over a longer period of time.

What GW need to do is show us how the Imperium’s new normal has changed things for lesser galactic powers, like Eldar of all flavours, Kin, Tau etc.

Well in-universe the Leagues have made a greater presence in the galaxy because the Rift consumed a chunk of their systems.
So like, there's that.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That, and it reflects real world stuff. Even where an empire might fall, you still have a tangle of events which take place over a longer period of time.

What GW need to do is show us how the Imperium’s new normal has changed things for lesser galactic powers, like Eldar of all flavours, Kin, Tau etc.

Yeah, imo they need to do more follow ups (and if they do them they should be better than Vigilus 2). I mean, did they dive deeper into the Plague Stars or the Pariah Nexus or the Psychic awakening in 10th?
As I understand it Octarius for once was a complete story with a winner, but that seems like an outlier to me.

 Overread wrote:
The Lore will always end up in the Status Quo because no one wants their faction written out of the game functionally speaking.

No one wants to be the "weakest faction in lore" that is "going nowhere and being defeated on all fronts".

Which is basically what you need for the status to change.


At least cutting the Imperium in half they'd still be the biggest singular power in the Galaxy

Individual war fronts can change even if the overall galactic picture does not. Individual character arcs can start, develop, and finish. That is what happened for example with Yarrick and with Tycho.

The problem is GW going for every war front being indefinite stalemate bloodbath. If that is the outcome every time, there is no real suspense to the story. Octarius is one notable outlier after being in stalemate for several editions though I suspect down the line GW will do something to again bring about stalemate to that warzone.

The galaxy is big enough that all factions can have victories and defeats without completely overturning the galactic status quo or destroying a faction.