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So I am in the planning/ experimental stage in a new conversion and sculpting project involving the Sisters of Battle. I am making a lot of changes to their armour, and I am faced with the question: Boob armour - yay or nay?
Half of me says: No. Get rid of it. Dumb, outdated, and kind of embarrassing.
…The other half of says: it's iconic. It's an important part of the design language of the models, and to remove it completely would harm how recognisable they are as a faction.
I am interested in seeing what the consensus is! Very interested to hear any thoughts - especially if you are not a man [:
I think they are OK as they are, I think they have a classic look to them, a little sexy sure, not many guardsman would turn down a date with a gun totting lady with skull boob armor in high heels
In there defense at least they are fully clad and don't just have bikini armor like some mini's. Wearing terminator plate armor...but only covering your nipples probably won't help much in battle.
The stormcast girls have maybe a more realistic armor but maybe too big/chunky for stand ins.
I mean, nothing in the Imperium makes sense, so... I don't know if the Brides of the Emperor have ever been depicted in canon art (I skipped a bunch of editions between 3rd and 9th) but I've always assumed the Brides' armour design would've been overseen by Goge Vandire when the Daughters of the Emperor were outfitted with their new elite gear and he's always struck me as the exact kind of lunatic who'd want his all-female holy bodyguard cadre to look like walking gold-plated reliquaries with tits. In turn, I figure the Sororitas armour post-Apostasy probably looked much the same, just with all the 'Goge is God' inscriptions filed off - to play into the good PR of Alicia Dominica and the Brides by extension having been tapped by the Emperor Himself to put Goge down, to preserve the very clear distinction between the Sororitas and the rest of the now-illegal Ministorum military, and just because since they could bill it all directly to the Ecclesiarch they probably had a very extensive stockpile of armour and parts, better to use it than design new suits from the ground up, especially when the Ministorum's in the doghouse and the Mechanicus isn't going to be in any great hurry to oblige them with new supplies. Cut to the present, and by a combination of the Imperium's habitual lack of progress, and it still being very good PR to remind everyone that the current generation of ladies in ceramite are cut from the same cloth as Alicia and her ilk, I wouldn't be surprised if, cosmetically, our Sororitas minis are still a damn close match for Goge's Brides armour, boobs and all.
Pursuit Of Happiness wrote: Wearing terminator plate armor...but only covering your nipples probably won't help much in battle.
Not if you're following Slaanesh it won't, you need those nips out for all to see.
If you're going to fundamentally/significantly alter the aesthetics of the faction/models anyway, why not just make a new faction and not alter an existing one? You get a lot more freedom that way.
Might have been interesting to divide the answers into whether a male or female is answering.
I'm a dude, I like the boob armour aesthetic on Sisters. I don't always like boob armour, but specifically on Sisters I think it looks good. Liked the look of SIsters since they first came out back in 2nd edition.
That said, your models, do what you like with them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/03/14 11:52:58
It’s overwrought and over the top, but that’s what gothic is.
The boob plate is also a reminder to the rest of the Imperium that they are not men at arms, and thus are allowed their little loophole.
I’m sure people can make a great looking, much more sensible SoB army. But I prefer the look and feel of weaponized gothic architecture and religion. It’s stupid and crazy in all the right ways, and a breath of classic 40k in a more sanitized smoothed-over modern era.
Exactly what Nevelon just said. Per the Imperial Laws the church is NOT allowed to have MEN under arms. The loop hole that they use is that they have Women under arms. The armor is intentionally over the top to ensure everyone can see that they are women.
If this were a historical game, then yes, boob armor wouldn't make sense.
But, this is a crazy SciFi game about an insane gothic setting with an in-universe explanation for why things are like they are.
The opinions of others don't really matter in this case, its really down to how you want them to look. I'd agree with an earlier post - convert a few up and see what its like for you. You might like the change - great; or you might dislike it - also great.
Lord Damocles wrote: If you're going to fundamentally/significantly alter the aesthetics of the faction/models anyway, why not just make a new faction and not alter an existing one? You get a lot more freedom that way.
Because I am not trying to fundamentally alter the aesthetic of the faction! That's kind of the question really - does removing the boob armour fundamentally alter the Sisters, and make them look like something else?
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Might have been interesting to divide the answers into whether a male or female is answering.
Hmm yeah would have been a smarter idea...
I am aware that "my models, my choice" - but my choice is to ask people's opinions I don't want to be creating things that send the wrong message. If people think something is outdated and inappropriate, I don't want to be championing that thing with my miniatures. That's the way I choose to hobby [:
The lore justifications all fall a bit flat for me. At the end of the day, you can massage your way into a lore justification for just about anything, but that's not the same as the lore DEMANDING that something has to be a certain way. The most compelling argument is that the Sisters are barred from being men, so should look feminine. This argument has a lot of layers of abstraction to get there though. It goes like this:
The Decree Passive States that the Ministorum cannot have 'men under arms' - they cannot have men in a standing army
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The Sisters have to be women (a smaller abstraction, but based on our modern understanding of gender, not men =/= women. Especially in the 41st millennium when here is all manner of gender less or gender-ambiguous things)
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The Sisters need to look 'feminine', in the traditional sense, which is coloured largely by how conventionally attractive they are to a western audience. (It should be obvious that there are other ways to be feminine!)
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The Sisters need to have prominent, visible breasts. (Even if we accept that they should be traditionally feminine, that doesn't mean their boobs need to be prominent. The existence or absence of large breasts is not the defining metric of femininity. Something can have breasts and be masculine, or not have breasts and be feminine. Just ask lesbian culture.)
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The Sisters need shaped metal hemispheres on their chests. (There are other ways to imply the existence of breasts, without having sculpted boob armour. The current model range even showcases this, with some sisters having leather body armour - the same is present on Aleya, as mentioned by Pariah Press)
...That's a lot of layers. I can accept a couple of layers of abstraction, but to accept all of that without question is too much for me. I think I can agree that the Sisters should be traditionally feminine - that is a strong and iconic part of their look. Removing boob armour does not necessarily mean taking that away.
I think from this I have realised 'feel' is the most important element here. All of the lore and idea-based arguments ultimately come down to justifying a feeling. If the Sisters don't feel like sisters without boob armour, then that's that. Not much point in trying to talk around it.
As others have said, I guess the only route forward is some test models... stay tuned [:
Boob armor, dragons, ets "classical high fantasy"
I always found it dumb when I was young/idealistic.
It was era of Frank Frazetta, Boris Vallejo and Julie Bell, and others. Before my time.
I vote keep the boob armor.
It is important for the design, Just like having SM helmetless, or crazy colors for Overwatch characters, or unique silhouettes for Left4Dead zombies.
It is a design, that makes the unit/object unique and interesting. Unless you have an alternative design that replaces SoB chest armor with something else that is unique with a strong design Id say keep it.
I do not follow the art anymore and can't point to someone specific, but Id recommend looking up old-school art legends with strong design. To see if those artist, in their personal work, have any designs for a (Theocratic female space warrior) designs to get inspiration-reference for a well designed chest armor alternatives.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevelon wrote: It’s overwrought and over the top, but that’s what gothic is.
The boob plate is also a reminder to the rest of the Imperium that they are not men at arms, and thus are allowed their little loophole.
I’m sure people can make a great looking, much more sensible SoB army. But I prefer the look and feel of weaponized gothic architecture and religion. It’s stupid and crazy in all the right ways, and a breath of classic 40k in a more sanitized smoothed-over modern era.
Amen!
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2024/03/14 17:05:12
Looking again at the models, the boob-plate elements are ornate, and obscured by weapons, rebreathers and iconography.
It would be cool to see what you might do to convert the torso silhouette, but it would probably be an awful lot of work to get rid of the boob-plates entirely for a whole army.
The main issue I have with it is the practicalities of the front-chest shot trap/sternum breakage point. I think that would be remarkably hard to do away with given all the other gubbinz present on the model.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/03/14 18:44:35
Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
Flinty wrote: but it would probably be an awful lot of work to get rid of the boob-plates entirely for a whole army.
you clearly haven't seen any of my past projects if you think this would change anything
Mothsniper wrote: Boob armor, dragons, ets "classical high fantasy"
I always found it dumb when I was young/idealistic.
It was era of Frank Frazetta, Boris Vallejo and Julie Bell, and others. Before my time.
I do not follow the art anymore and can't point to someone specific, but Id recommend looking up old-school art legends with strong design. To see if those artist, in their personal work, have any designs for a (Theocratic female space warrior) designs to get inspiration-reference for a well designed chest armor alternatives.
this is a good idea. I do understand the power and significance of the classic fantasy art that shaped so much of Warhammer, and the aesthetic definitely has it's place. I just wonder if the SoB is that place - i wouldn't think twice about making an inquisitor with boob plate and armoured high heels, but with a whole faction of nuns it becomes a different question
I never really paid much attention, so had to look at the minis to see if it was over the top or not. I can't really see anything flagrant, am I missing something? Sure, you can tell they are females, but only the occasional sculpt really shows much at all and it is not revealing. Maybe I am not looking at the right specimens, but hey, all parts of a warrior need to be protected...
Flinty wrote: but it would probably be an awful lot of work to get rid of the boob-plates entirely for a whole army.
you clearly haven't seen any of my past projects if you think this would change anything
Mothsniper wrote: Boob armor, dragons, ets "classical high fantasy"
I always found it dumb when I was young/idealistic.
It was era of Frank Frazetta, Boris Vallejo and Julie Bell, and others. Before my time.
I do not follow the art anymore and can't point to someone specific, but Id recommend looking up old-school art legends with strong design. To see if those artist, in their personal work, have any designs for a (Theocratic female space warrior) designs to get inspiration-reference for a well designed chest armor alternatives.
this is a good idea. I do understand the power and significance of the classic fantasy art that shaped so much of Warhammer, and the aesthetic definitely has it's place. I just wonder if the SoB is that place - i wouldn't think twice about making an inquisitor with boob plate and armoured high heels, but with a whole faction of nuns it becomes a different question
Think of it this way. The artist already did his homework and ended up with that design, so it is for a reason and with a purpose.
Even though I have lots of respect for the "Dragon-Lance" illustrators, personally I would not draw my female warriors in boob armor because I like my art be "realistic" , and purposeful. My characters need to have a reason and purpose. So when I design a female armor I reference history books, and Joah of Arc's armor was normal armor. I don't see a practical reason for a dedicated breast armor piece that is similar in function to a codpiece.
Looked through your gallery (firstly, holy snap you need to teach me how to sculpt like that), do you want to collaborate on this? I can draw some designs and you can take a look and see if any are interesting enough to be an alternative to the current SoB design?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2024/03/15 00:46:51
Interestingly if you look at armour through history there have been various spots of accurate functional armour and elaborate armour designs that might be purely decorative.
A large codpiece or a sculpted muscled abs and chest design over a breastplate have all been done in the past for both decorative display armours and functional battle armour.
When you consider that most armour in 40K for the Imperial faction is highly ornate and the whole game itself is more like fantasy battles taken into the future (eg the huge amount of swords, blades and so forth); then the idea that they'd use sculpted armours that are designed both for function and appearance makes sense within the setting.
So it is realistic for a given time period and attitude of design ethos. It's not what modern day armourers would design for a battle suit; its not what ancient people would design for a purely functional suit of armour either.
Mothsniper wrote: do you want to collaborate on this? I can draw some designs and you can take a look and see if any are interesting enough to be an alternative to the current SoB design?
100%! I'm definitely up for trying out any ideas you might have - would be really interesting to have your input
Mothsniper wrote: do you want to collaborate on this? I can draw some designs and you can take a look and see if any are interesting enough to be an alternative to the current SoB design?
100%! I'm definitely up for trying out any ideas you might have - would be really interesting to have your input
If you like, you could aid me by providing me with with a jumping off point "art direction". Because it is ultimately your army, and I would like to avoid guess work in how you "envision" SoB.
Can you share with me an image or 3 of a image that you find ether relevant for this project, or just find it cool, or a time period that you like for this project or a culture from our history. (could be picture or art, scifi, historical, anything)
I can design from head, but reference image just make it faster.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, give me a day or two, lets do my drawing:
soft-deadline on Sunday morning March|17|24
hard-deadline on Monday morning March|18|24
(Habit, I need deadlines, otherwise things wont get done)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/03/15 01:27:03
I guess a good place to start is with some of what I have done already. I've been doing a bit of a soft-redesign of the Sisters armour. I've gone for a bit of a knightly, plate armour look. A bit simpler, with sharper lines, and armour over the midriff rather than leather corsets like on the official models. You mentioned Joan of Arc - I think that's not a bad starting point.
Yeah, that is Perfect! thank you!
Just looking at some pictures for reference and I remembered that John Howe would be perfect for this. He is not only a legend but also makes his own armor, and knows how to paint/design it from inside and out. I am no John Howe, but will try to draw something lolz.
shmvo wrote: I guess a good place to start is with some of what I have done already. I've been doing a bit of a soft-redesign of the Sisters armour. I've gone for a bit of a knightly, plate armour look. A bit simpler, with sharper lines, and armour over the midriff rather than leather corsets like on the official models. You mentioned Joan of Arc - I think that's not a bad starting point.
(Habit, I need deadlines, otherwise things wont get done)
haha you and me both. If I have something to work with on Monday, I can have a few different things sculpted by the Friday night at the latest
.
Wish I had more time but deadline is deadline.
The thought process:
1 - Looking at the SoB minis I realized that the (boobarmor) is a very strong design element that sells the idea of a (female) unit efficiently and in a none contrived way, especially on a tiny figure. Because everything else is covered by weapons and details, not leaving much room to work with. I do not know how crucial it is for your project to preserve the female readability, so that might not even be relevant.
2 - Decided to shrink the torso and exaggerate the legs.
a) Raise the waist as high as possible, and enlarge the pelvis in length and width.
b) Hopefully the (female) shape will read
c) Cloth Tabard for the chest armor
d) Or an ornate flower design with two sets of tubes for the chest armor. Idea came from the classical SoB collar/tube that is around their necks, but enlarged and moved down to go over the chest armor.
e) Or leave the chest armor clean for the templar knight look
3 - You already started, it was a challenging to come up with something that could work around an existing shape. You can overlay your picture over the sketch, they should match pretty close.
a) Left - I tried to come up with something that will preserve the knightly lower "chin" guard you already sculpted, but honestly couldn't comeup with anything cool. ended up rendering a larger armor plate that covers entire chest, meh. Hope you can get some ideas from that. I like the rose design for the Besagew piece, that might not translate to miniature very well.
b) Right - I like that one better, it is simple tubes that cross the chest armor, could look cool.
c) Bottom - Ignore those, I though I was on something, but lost vision for it.
I am afraid I was unable to comeup with anything nifty for your girls in the time I had.
4 - I though to free sketch a SoB design
Braveheart inspired.
I hope my thoughts and sketches will give you some ideas or inspirations for your project. I will keep doodling and if I have anything cool, Ill send it over.
Yeah I mean, not a fan of it personally. Which is like the sole reason why I think Sisters of Silence look badass and Sisters of Battle look derp
but you do you, as usual
For me personally, this was the benchmark, has feminity and aggression (dare I say a bit of humor as well), but not in an derpy "WWE Amurrica Flock Yeah" way
tauist wrote: Yeah I mean, not a fan of it personally. Which is like the sole reason why I think Sisters of Silence look badass and Sisters of Battle look derp
What difference are you seeing that I don't?
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
So I am in the planning/ experimental stage in a new conversion and sculpting project involving the Sisters of Battle. I am making a lot of changes to their armour, and I am faced with the question: Boob armour - yay or nay?
Half of me says: No. Get rid of it. Dumb, outdated, and kind of embarrassing.
…The other half of says: it's iconic. It's an important part of the design language of the models, and to remove it completely would harm how recognisable they are as a faction.
I am interested in seeing what the consensus is! Very interested to hear any thoughts - especially if you are not a man [:
Mothsniper wrote: So when I design a female armor I reference history books, and Joan of Arc's armor was normal armor. I don't see a practical reason for a dedicated breast armor piece that is similar in function to a codpiece.
Joan was supposedly "... given a suit of "white armor" by Charles VII which was constructed at Tours in March of 1429 while she prepared for battle."
Was it constructed by an armourer who had ever made armour for a woman before? It was unadorned (as the team 'white' appears to mean).
If 40k armour is made for purpose, and decorated as most 40k Imperial armour is, wouldn't it be quite different to Joan's rush-job?
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I don't want to be creating things that send the wrong message. If people think something is outdated and inappropriate, I don't want to be championing that thing with my miniatures. That's the way I choose to hobby [:
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