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 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
No, the Third Reich did claim to be a successor to the Roman Empire.

Why do you think they used Roman salutes and eagles all over the place? The Nazis believed that the Romans were actually Aryans.

.
Well one, that salute wasn't Roman, two, they got it from the Italian Fascists who did try to be Roman who thought that salute was something the Romans did, and three Romans don't have a monopoly on eagles.
The Holy Roman Empire also used the Eagle as their emblem, it was used by the German Empire so of course the Nazis are going to use an eagle as it is a "Germanic" emblem.

Where did they claim that they were successors to Rome? Because there is literally nothing I could find that support that.
Think about it logically; if the Nazis believed themselves to be the heirs to the Roman Empire, they'd be the Fourth Reich, not the Third. The First was the HRE, the Second was the German Empire.

And the HRE claimed to be a successor of what previous empire? The clue is in the name.

I'm sure Voltaire would have something to say about that, but ok, still doesn't mean the Nazis did. I'm not sure it works like that.
The Nazis saw themselves as successors to previous German empires. That doesn't automatically mean they saw themselves as successors to what those empires thought they were successors of.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Again, you are operating on the assumption that fascism makes sense. .

And you are operating on fan fiction. Where did they make the claim that they are direct successors to the Roman Empire?
We know Mussolini saw his regime as a successor to the Roman Empire because he outright said it and wanted to restore it. Where does Hitler say that?

Watch the video I linked. The Nazis believed the Roman ruling class were actually Germanic Aryans and the modern German people had a blood claim on Rome as a result. They believed that literally every great civilization in ancient and classical history was actually founded by Germanic Aryans. Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece. All Aryan in the Nazi view on history.

They regarded modern Italians, especially those who lived in the south of Italy, as the result of interbreeding which diluted the Aryan blood of the original Romans, and that that interbreeding was one of the causes of the fall of Rome.

You can have a read through of this Wikipedia page and its sources, if you want an overview https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Germanic_Reich

If the Nazis had been victorious in Europe and Russia, they would have turned on Mussolini or his successor after his death at some point as there could not be two successors to Rome in their ideology.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Also, the Third Reich never claimed to be a successor to the Roman Empire. That was Mussolini's goal. They claimed to be a successor to the Holy Roman Empire (or more directly, the German Empire), which is something completely different.

and the Holy Roman Empire itself claimed to be the successor of the Roman Empire, as there can only be one Empire and one Emperor, the Roman one, hence why they used even the same title (Kaiser = Caesar)

and if we go further, the the Russian also claimed to be the 3rd Rome, (Tsar also comes from Caesar) as they see themselves as successor of Byzanz (which was the 2nd Rome and therefore in direct conflict with the HRE which also claimed to be the 2nd Rome)

I know qualifications on the internet are worthless as could be lying and there is always someone more qualified but political history ba here! I never went in depth into the area but the nazis did not consider themselves heirs of the roman or greek empires as far as I know. They did largely admire them as examples of white supremacy though.

Did you cover much about the Nazis attempted archaeological justifications for their racial policies? Specifically the work of Ahnenerbe under Himmler?

Because that is the root of their claims of succession, as I have said. It was not succession via political model, but by (fictitious) bloodline.

 kodos wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Also, the Third Reich never claimed to be a successor to the Roman Empire. That was Mussolini's goal. They claimed to be a successor to the Holy Roman Empire (or more directly, the German Empire), which is something completely different.

and the Holy Roman Empire itself claimed to be the successor of the Roman Empire, as there can only be one Empire and one Emperor, the Roman one, hence why they used even the same title (Kaiser = Caesar)

and if we go further, the the Russian also claimed to be the 3rd Rome, (Tsar also comes from Caesar) as they see themselves as successor of Byzanz (which was the 2nd Rome and therefore in direct conflict with the HRE which also claimed to be the 2nd Rome)

That is true, but that still doesn't mean they saw themselves as a continuation of the Roman Empire, as they were more interested in carrying on the legacy of "Germanic" empires.
Whilst racially they might have seen the Romans as Aryans and as such their descendants, culturally and politically they were more interested in the HRE (as the HRE was a Germanic Empire that dominated Europe after the Fall of Rome), hence why they are the Third Reich, rather than the Fourth.

Funnily enough, Himmler was obsessed with archeology and tried to uncover proof that the Germanic Tribes were a super advanced civilization en par with the Romans. His failure to do so irritated Hitler greatly and Hitler tried suppressing such findings. I guess actual historical evidence would have gotten in the way of his propaganda.



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 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Because that is the root of their claims of succession, as I have said. It was not succession via political model, but by (fictitious) bloodline.

If that were truly the case, they would have cut to the chase and just called themselves Atlanteans.
So no, it was secession by political model. The bloodline nonsense was part of their racial policy, to justify why they, the Germans, have claim to greatness.

Anyway, the specific empire is actually not important to the point I was making, which is that fascists will try to forge a link between themselves and great empires of the past, using that as a claim of legitimacy and heritage and to provide justification for war and expansion.

The Imperium did this with the fallen Human empire, just like Mussolini with Rome and the Nazis with the German Empire and HRE (and Rome, in my opinion). The Imperium has no more a claim to that heritage than any other group of humans that existed at its founding, and the success of its expansion gives no legitimacy to the initial claim after the fact.


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

If that were truly the case, they would have cut to the chase and just called themselves Atlanteans.
So no, it was secession by political model. The bloodline nonsense was part of their racial policy, to justify why they, the Germans, have claim to greatness.

You do know how much of the modern atlantean crackpot archaeology is based on the Nazis, right? And that many Nazis did believe in a world spanning ancient Aryan empire called Thule?
Also, that racial policy touched literally every aspect of Nazi rule. It was their entire raison d'etre.

Hmm, I suppose. Chronologically they would be the successor, of course, and they do use the ruins and technology of the old empire but culturally...no.

In fact, I vaguely recall a story about a lost DAoT vessel full of human passengers that found it self in Imperial space, saw it's crew get brutally murdered by Imperials and consequently went mad of result, going on a huge tirade about how humanity is a disappointment and a failure when the boarding parties arrived.


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 A Town Called Malus wrote:


You do know how much of the modern atlantean crackpot archaeology is based on the Nazis, right? And that many Nazis did believe in a world spanning ancient Aryan empire called Thule?

Yes, that's what they believed, it was pretty crazy.
Nazi mythology was wild. Good source for weird war fiction though.

Hey, folks: think we can bring this back to being about 40k and not a discussion of Nazi history, please?

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Hey, folks: think we can bring this back to being about 40k and not a discussion of Nazi history, please?

Indeed. The history lesson is fascinating, but it's well and truly time to move it back to 40K..

So the imperium of man shows it's hand when ever it tells it's greatest Lie:

"The Emperor Protects". He doesn't. At all. He doesn't even care. He never did. The IoM only cares about one thing, and that's power. It's is completely willing to sacrifice entire worlds to avoid loosing one iota of power. Even the slightest hint of "Tau" subversion can warrant an Extermination on a global scale.

Even the merest hint of insinuation that populace of a planet is not perfectly human, could be the straw on the back of the camel that prompts the Sisters of Battle "Taking it upon their own volition to wipe it out".

The Space Marines might suddenly decide to Exterminatus your planet on the grounds that a Daemon was summoned on it.

The Emperor does not protect. The emperor hates his people. And their suffering and tragic nature is the most perfect comedy against what his intent was, and how it ended due to humanity's nature.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So the imperium of man shows it's hand when ever it tells it's greatest Lie:

"The Emperor Protects".

Now though, you can actively pray away injuries; so...

Citation needed on that one.

 Gert wrote:
Citation needed on that one.

Didn't that happen in the 9th ed trailer? Or was it the 10th ed one?

Doesn't faith in the Emperor also affect demons, and his beacon is needed for Human Warp travel? Yeah there's alternatives, but I doubt the necrons and Eldar are going to share their techniques, and humans probably can't copy them anyway because of either how advanced they are or require specific biological traits.

Also, how do Living Saints and Acts of Faith work?


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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


The emperor hates his people.

Given that the Emperor is dead, I find that highly unlikely. And he's not the one giving the order for exterminatus, his followers are, no different from those who kill in the name of their god.
One of the themes of the setting is that the Emperor is not the one giving orders, just the High Lords who claim to act in his name, but aren't really as the Emperor has no way to actually tell them what to do.
Because he's dead, he is no more. If it weren't for the constant supply of human kindling his light would cease to shine. He's passed on, he's ceased to be. He's gone on to meet the maker he didn't think existed. That is a dead emperor.

What you see as the Emperor's Light or will whatever is just residual psionic traces being kept sustained by the Golden Throne that's kept burning with routine sacrifices, and even then that is getting weaker over time. The Emperor himself has been dead for ten thousand years.

 Gert wrote:
Citation needed on that one.

So she kneels, says a prayer, and her arms stops being crackly?
No special golden light, no magic aura?
Are there any other instances of this that have been shown in something like other animations, BL fiction, comics, or the such?
Is there any other source that corroborates that a prayer to the Emperor can heal humans?
How do we know this isn't the indomitable human spirit? Zealotry is a hell of a drug after all.

I'm playing devil's advocate here because there are so many instances where people will look at one thing and then say that everything is the same.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Doesn't faith in the Emperor also affect demons, and his beacon is needed for Human Warp travel? Yeah there's alternatives, but I doubt the necrons and Eldar are going to share their techniques, and humans probably can't copy them anyway because of either how advanced they are or require specific biological traits.

A little bit of column A, and a little bit of column B. It's not just a case of believing really hard in the Emperor hurting Daemons, it's specific acts or symbols that are more closely aligned with Daemonology than religion, the two just neatly align together.
For example, just an Aquila doesn't do anything but invoking the Emperor while holding an Aquila pendant might cause a Daemon a fragment of pain. Is it the symbol or the words behind the symbol?

Also, how do Living Saints and Acts of Faith work?

Living Saints are Emperor-Daemons and Acts of Faith is an army rule no different to Oaths of Moment. A Space Marine making an Oath doesn't suddenly become better at fighting and a Sister praying doesn't automatically become tougher or stronger.
Psychologically it would have an effect that could in turn cause a physical change but that's along the lines of The Indomitable Human Spirit rather than god intervening. If you think god is on your side, you fight that little bit harder.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:




Also, how do Living Saints and Acts of Faith work?


[.

I'd say it's just the power of the Warp. Believing in things stirs it, so it's just the same process as with spells or daemonic manifestations. The result is different because the underlying belief is different and the Warp moulds itself to match, just like it does with other strong emotions.

I see we're still on with "The imperium is necessary actually"

The issue is that belief system is real toxic with how easy that crosses over to real world systems

stratigo wrote:

The issue is that belief system is real toxic with how easy that crosses over to real world systems

Isn't that the point? The Imperium takes heavy influence from various real world religions, but primarily Catholicism due to the overall aesthetic being based on Medieval Europe but in the Future.
And by Catholicism I mean a bastardized version of it according to pop-culture that takes the worst aspects and turn it up to 11.

It’s more than that.

The Imperium is a massively advanced civilisation stripped of pretty much all knowledge and understanding of how it got there.

Consider the humble Lasgun. In-game, it’s a meme’s to death joke weapon. Low powered, “with a laser sight its twin linked lolololol”. But genuinely? It’s an absolute miracle weapon I suspect any modern Military would give its eye teeth for.

Easy to maintain, near as dammit infinite ammunition. And for only slightly more advanced models, shot and power options. It resolves a lot of supply train issues, is highly resistant to extremes of environment and weather and that. And it’s perfectly capable of killing.

Indeed, if it has one genuine drawback? Provided the target survives the initial hit, thanks to cauterising its own damage, it reduces the medical care needed to get said target back on the field.

It’s the whole Dark Ages of Europe set to a ridiculous degree, where the Enlightenment can never occur.

Look at the Adeptus Mechanicus, those who keep the forges stoked and the materiel flowing. It’s…a deeply conservative religious order, arguably even more oppressive than the Ecclesiarchy.

The modern Imperium is the loss of all reason, but not the benefits of science that came before.

The entirety of The Imperium is so focussed on simply surviving and maintaining itself, and the power structure which, by and large, has allowed it to do so, it’s lost sight of the entire reason for its own existence.

The Emperor is a terrible being. Willing to commit xenocide and genocide to see his dream come true. But at least he was doing so with an actual goal in mind. His Imperium has lost sight of that goal. It perpetuates horrors on its own people without ever really improving anything for anyone. It now exists for the sake of existing.

And as much as Rejuvenaut treatments can drastically extend the human lifespan? None of the High Lords or Planetary Governors live forever. After 10,000 years, dozens if not hundreds of generations of rulers have come and gone, each one further and further and further removed from what the whole point of the Great Crusade was.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

stratigo wrote:

The issue is that belief system is real toxic with how easy that crosses over to real world systems

Isn't that the point? The Imperium takes heavy influence from various real world religions, but primarily Catholicism due to the overall aesthetic being based on Medieval Europe but in the Future.
And by Catholicism I mean a bastardized version of it according to pop-culture that takes the worst aspects and turn it up to 11.

I would argue that it reflects very accurately specific eras of the Catholic church's history, only writ larger across the stars. The purging, witch hunting, crusades etc of history were all instigated by, in the name of, or supported by the catholic church (and its pope) of that era. This expands to colonisation (and by this stage of history, the other newer christian churches are also culpable).

40k took those very real and terrible actions and placed them on a galactic stage. It's an examination of power - 'what if the catholic church as it existed during the crusades had access to unlimited manpower and a galaxy of heathens to crusade across? Would they not then do exactly the same thing, only larger?'


That's one of those original satirical aspects of 40k. The imperium has a virtually medieval mindset, as does its church (thus it can tap into the actual historical acts of said church from that era in a believable way). That combined with their speciest supremacy and eugenics ideology creates a what if scenario where a medieval catholic church dominates a theocratic feudalist empire built on fascist ideologies.



But the modern image of the imperium is in some ways like the black and white era of film making, where those historical events were told through a white european bias with those being crusaded against as unequivocally the bad guys and the crusading force a benevolent force for good, Guilliman as Richard the Lionheart but make it 50s romance Lionheart, not actual history terrible human Lionheart...

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

stratigo wrote:

The issue is that belief system is real toxic with how easy that crosses over to real world systems

Isn't that the point? The Imperium takes heavy influence from various real world religions, but primarily Catholicism due to the overall aesthetic being based on Medieval Europe but in the Future.
And by Catholicism I mean a bastardized version of it according to pop-culture that takes the worst aspects and turn it up to 11.

The issue is that the earnest mindset of "The imperium is justified doing anything to xenos and mutants to secure the future of humanity" is easily equivalated to "The (insert far right group) is justified to do anything to (insert minority) and (insert political opponents) to secure the future of humanity". Because this is the relentless messaging from the far right.

I am deeply concerned when someone expresses the first that they might have been sucked into the second. Especially with other signifiers.

And indeed people USE the first to try and vaguely point to the second in places where saying the second is not accepted.

If people have far right views, I don't think Warhammer is going to convince them one way or another. They might use the rhetoric in a jokey way to downplay their ideas, but people generally know the difference between fantasy and reality. I think only severely ill or developmentally disabled people would actually be radicalised by a tabletop wargame, and I'm not sure those people would be less likely to be radicalised if the game made the satire more overt.

Edit to add: I am in favour of the older background to be clear, and I find the new stuff with Guilleman completely insipid. But I have similar critiques about lots of the background after nearly 3 decades of interest in the setting - Squats are cooler as Xenos Demiurg, Eldar Corsairs should be the default Eldar, Orks shouldn't have magic belief powers, Tau should just be relatively normal levels of cynical and not mind controlling monsters, the Hive Mind should not have emotions that are comprehensible to humans, Necrons are cooler as killer androids of unknown origin than Space Tomb Kings, giant sized Primarchs are ridiculous, ditto ludicrously large spaceships, Chaos shouldn't be portrayed in such a flanderdised way that anyone who ever chooses Chaos is obviously an insane idiot and so on.

 Da Boss wrote:
If people have far right views, I don't think Warhammer is going to convince them one way or another. They might use the rhetoric in a jokey way to downplay their ideas, but people generally know the difference between fantasy and reality. I think only severely ill or developmentally disabled people would actually be radicalised by a tabletop wargame, and I'm not sure those people would be less likely to be radicalised if the game made the satire more overt.

well, it's not that the game itself would convince them, but those people using the game to downplay their real-world ideology using it as a vehicle for those views. not a process that could happen in isolation, but this is a community-based game, and if you end up in a poor community, especially online, there are far too many easy pitfalls

I think if you are convinced to be far right by a tabletop game community online you are either extremely easy to influence to the point where influencing you back out of it should be trivial, or you already had a fairly heavy lean in that direction to start with and perhaps just learned language to express it and felt more comfortable being open about it in that group.

I suggest not going too far down that particular rabbit hole - it never ends well around here.

I just feel this line of discussion is really similar to the "videogames make children violent!" arguments we all heard back in the day.

 Gert wrote:
So she kneels, says a prayer, and her arms stops being crackly?
No special golden light, no magic aura?
Are there any other instances of this that have been shown in something like other animations, BL fiction, comics, or the such?
Is there any other source that corroborates that a prayer to the Emperor can heal humans?
How do we know this isn't the indomitable human spirit? Zealotry is a hell of a drug after all.

I'm playing devil's advocate here because there are so many instances where people will look at one thing and then say that everything is the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9V0bOB8sXQ

From about 1:06 to 1:27

The green glowing ongoing gauss weapon wound, still surrounded by bolts of green lightning discharge, changes to a red golden glow upon prayer and then once the glow fades the SoB is left with a ragged gloved but still functional hand. Clearly the implication is there is something going on that is supernatural and not just the SoB gritting her teeth and bearing it.

In the more recent editions the SoB have had more blatant divine miracles like prayers that make the enemy spontaneously combust and relics that do the same, especially to Chaos aligned units and daemons.

I admit I kind of preferred it when the Emperor was more subtle and the miracles might be inexplicable endurance when the person should have died, or an incredible string of coincidences happening, rather than big golden aura and flashy flames. I remember my idea for a SoB Sacred Rose Canoness was using a plasma pistol and using the warlord trait that made Miracle dice a 6 for the warlord, combined with the Sacred Rose stratagem that turned hits on 6's into 2 hits, having a SoB character that could fire its plasma pistol that hit harder without any risk of explosion. For the Imperium, that is already a miracle.

 Da Boss wrote:
I just feel this line of discussion is really similar to the "videogames make children violent!" arguments we all heard back in the day.

Lowkey, it pretty much is. It's funny how much it's swung from the puritan right being the main censor and proponent against video games, to the radical left now being the main censor for things like how video game characters look or act and the things they deem must be boycotted (e.g. Hogwart's Legacy and how that boycott failed miserably). Horshoe theory is definitely a thing.

Like you said, it's fundamentally a game of toy soldiers, I think it's more a reflection of YOU and your issues if you believe this game is full of far-right or far-left dog whistles and that it's a secret covert breeding ground for Nazis/communists. Like this game is for escapism, I would hope you would not be basing your morality, life, and identity around something that is intended to be a hobby. Or do people around here also freak out about Mario being an entryway into animal abuse because he stomps on turtles in his game?

 Da Boss wrote:
If people have far right views, I don't think Warhammer is going to convince them one way or another. They might use the rhetoric in a jokey way to downplay their ideas, but people generally know the difference between fantasy and reality.

Hopefully it's that way in your countries. Here in the USA atm? It's a akin to a coin flip. A good # of my countrymen have just gone stupid in recent years.