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And all it takes is one grenade or autocannon to kill a Marine.
They're good-but this is reminding me of the "One Marine vs. 10,000 Guard," thread.

Autocannon, yeah. Grenade.... You better land that nade perfectly.

There are situations in which Marines may turn the tide of entire battles, and there are situations Marines get killed in the first 5 minutes.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Autocannon, yeah. Grenade.... You better land that nade perfectly.

Note that I meant Krak Grenade, not a Frag Grenade.
Frag Grenade would have to be just right to injure a Marine (unless they're going helmetless )but a Krak Grenade, not so much.

Tangent into the rules, spoilered because this is the Background subforum...

Krak grenade needs to land even more perfectly. IE: You need to actually stick it to them physically. If its not touching them it does nothing.

They are basically HEAT warheads meant to be stuck to a tank. Given they can be thrown they have some sort of magnetic/sci-fi gizmo that aids them in sticking to a target. This is certainly possible to do vs power armor, but it is going to be far tougher than sticking one to a tank.

But if you miss even slightly, the marine isn't going to care much about the blast because of his armor. Its in the "Possible, but highly unlikely to work" category. Appropriate for a heroic sacrifice by a desperate human or a battle bro's tragic death depending on who the current main character in the story is.

And realistically, it is a question of if rear troops will even be issued krak grenades. Sure, they might be guarding some stashes, but just forcing the rear echelons to carry heavy equipment like that is itself a victory for the Imperium. That is krak grenades and other gear not on the front line so the Guardsmen can push them back easier.

Grey Templar wrote:It can also be excused as the CSM being overconfidant, not expecting anybody to have anti-tank weaponry.

Most chaos marines aren't involved in big wars anyway. Most of the time they are raiding to get loot and booty, which means either helpless civilians or local defense forces who will lack much of anything that can threaten a marine.

Chaos does get a bit too much of the saturday cartoon villain treatment but in this case it can be excused.

That's an author's choice. And no, it can't be "excused' .

Overread wrote:I think there's another aspect of marines that is getting missed out - Moral.


The Imperial Guard are regular infantry and soldiers. Yes highly trained, but they are your regular army.

Space Marines are almost literal angels from god as far as many Imperial Citizens are concerned, and that also includes those that make up the IG.


Not only can Marines help turn the tide of battle through surgical strikes at key locations, their very appearance on the battlefield might well change the moral of troops considerably. This becomes even more important when the foe is suddenly literal demons or powerful aliens. Suddenly having those marines there might be enough to keep the Regiment holding the line and not breaking.


Now yes there are some guard regiments who are nigh unbreakable, but even they will take hope and inspiration from the presence of the Marines.


Of course this can flip head over heels too if you are up against Traitor Marines.

What? You mean that the Astartes that still stick to Legion tactics might behave differently from the ones that have accepted the codex Astartes as verbatim? Perish the thought. It might end up with us looking at loyalist Astartes and Traitor Astartes as somewhat different./s

Worth keeping in mind an in-game casualty doesn’t mean the beneficiary has snuffed it.

One of the many advantages of Marines is they’re really tough to kill. Not disable. Not knock out. Not crippled until they get a bionic upgrade. Kill. It’s comparatively rare.

Even if they appear dead, it’s possible they’re in that Sus-An Membrane coma thing. And if they couldn’t survived being hacked and mangled and nuggeted, they’d not have Dreadnoughts.

If you look at real world injuries, bleeding out and infection are major risks. Both of which are heavily mitigated by the combination of a Marine’s enhanced biology and his armour. Their blood clots super quickly, they’re naturally resistant to infection in the first place, and their armour can pump them full of medicines.

Now, we know Imperial Bionics can get ridiculous in terms of a percentage of your body, and we’ve seen in-universe example of people with their entire lower half replaced. But we don’t know the full circumstances that caused such extreme remedial work. For all we know, it could be that with both legs AWOL, a decision was made to replace the hips downward as a matter of efficiency. Certainly it shouldn’t be taken as “therefore you can bicturate a Marine and they’ll be fine”. Nor can we reliably look to Lufgt Huron a benchmark of resilience. Example? Absolutely. But by no means a benchmark.

This scenario doesn't really work for me.

Either the enemy is spread out enough to enable the marines a chance of taking out a small position and then hiding before reinforcements arrive: since they're on foot this means they won't be hitting many of my positions, meaning I can probably ignore them until later.

Or the enemy is clustered enough so that the marines can hit multiple small positions in a decent timeframe: they'll get swamped before they can hide/finish the job.

Honestly I'd assign an extra infantry squad to my smaller positions in the region and keep a single vulture loaded to BRRRT them when they show up. Or maybe even use a couple of scouts with vox to monitor these positions, so they can call the vulture the moment they see/hear three brightly armored giant dudes stomping through the bushes.

Also lets not forget the tabletop rules don't translate to the reality of the setting. Tyranid Gaunt swarms are not between 20 and 40 models; Swarm Lord is not going down to a few guardsmen etc....


They are rules made for a game and unlike some historical re-enactment based games; the 40K game doesn't in any way attempt to mirror reality of the setting save in the most generalist of senses.
Partly because there ARE no real battles to emulate with actual functional statistics, numbers and so forth to work with.

Then again it depends entirely on your stance on bolter porn I guess. There's also a story where 5 marines kill 300+ dark eldar

Another problem I always have with these scenarios of "a squad of Marines is operating behind enemy lines and causing havoc!": as roughly estimated above, in the grand scheme of things 3 Space Marines are rarer then a billion Guardsmen. And even if we keep it a lot more conservative they are harder to replace then a couple thousand Guardsmen. So if I am an evil commander (TM), and I realize that there are high class operatives (likely Astartes) operating at front section B1, I would find it fully logical to obliterate the whole section by heavy artillery fire until until everything is just glassed. Sure I'll loose a couple of thousand of my traitor guard and a lot of shells, maybe I even loose some tactical advantage in the region, but in the grand scheme of things, killing that squad will hurt the imperium much more.

The same goes the other way around. As CSM-lore is never tired to highlight much of their strength comes from the excessive experience their "veterans of the long war" have. That is an advantage that is utterly impossible to replace. So if one of these veterans shows up somewhere and is positively identified... say hello to a Deathstrike and a couple of hundred Manticore missiles comming that way.

Last but not least regarding "Space Marines bring a lot of heavy firepower!" they bring nothing the Guard does not have plenty of. Everything Marines use to kill each other (Plasma, Melta, Krakgrenades/Missiles, Lascannons, Powerweapons) the guard has too, and more of it. Astartes do bring it more concentrated though, hence their advantages for some special missions.

I always find the whole "bolter porn" thing curious. Because marines are always shown as the elite or the elite smashing and destroying everything. Like the game Space Marine on PC where we see a handful of marines turn the tide of battle and your player character do insane feats.


Sometimes I feel like the whole "its all just bolter porn" angle is a bit of a "I play other factions and don't like how one faction is always held up as better"

@ Overread: Fair enough, I honestly admit that this might at least play a part in my objections.
Overall I would say I don't have that big of a problem with Space Marines saving the day or excelling at what they do best. I have a big problem though with the massive amount of belitteling other factions in lore that I... at least often see. And with that I mean allies like PDF/Guard as well as enemies when it is implied they would effortlessly bring down Ork Warbosses and the like.

But yes, maybe it's just envy, I don't know for sure.

It's also likely because Xenos have a tiny number of stories about them. In most cases they are fodder for Imperial books and often (but not always) marines.

Even in books about the Guard, if a Marine turns up it turns the tide.


Heck Tyranids have it even worse because they don't even get books about themselves; they are near always just a target so even when they are winning you can't get the same feeling because the core characters the book is actually telling you about are losing.

Thing is, the Marines are well equipped for extraction. And like the Eversor Temple, they’re about do maximum carnage in as short a space of time as possible.

If anything, the Chapters really aren’t terribly suited to open battle. No. Not useless or incompetent. Just not playing to their strengths.

Once they’ve gutted your command structure, that’s where our old friend Transhuman Dread really comes into it. Especially given their all but mythic status. Few have seen anything even close to an Astartes in full flow. The speed, grace and aggression combined just…doesn’t compute.

Sure, that’s a largely temporary condition. But hesitating in battle is rarely a good idea, and it’s an even worse idea when you’ve a squad of genhanced, 8’ tall super warriors tearing through your lines.

Yes concentrated fire and heavy weapons can take them down. But not straight away. And as a lot of your firepower is deflected or absorbed by their armour, every single one of your mates hit by them is in a bad state. Possibly detonating there and then, possibly shrieking out their last as their mangled body finally gives up the ghost. Being hit with an Astartes wielded chainsaw is awful. But just being punched by one isn’t much preferable. Oh, and when you do land a palpable hit, including them losing a limb? They’re by no means guaranteed out for the count. And they just. Keep. Coming.

They’re terror troops in the truest sense of the word.

Their 40K stats are known not to do them justice. And their stats in Inquisitor were….frankly ridiculous (flicking an unprimed bolt round at people did more damage than shooting your Bolter silly ridiculous daft). But in between those two extremes are horrifying foes.

Your troops and other resources aren’t infinite. And as shown, Astartes fighting alone is pretty uncommon. So whilst trying to send something to stop the slaughter? Those forces are coming from somewhere. You can’t just magic them out your bunghole. Even with Daemons you need time to do a summoning ritual - and they’re not something you want to rush, given you kind of need to get it right.

And so, whichever other Imperial Forces you’re fighting should, with just a bit of planning, be poised to ramp up their own pressure. And that my friend, is when you lose. Even if by some miracle you eventually contain or slay the Astartes. Provided they got their main job done? That’s it. You’re on the back foot with no guarantee you’ll be able to pull it back.

And if you’re really, really really naughty, it’s the Terminators coming out to play. Those mad lads with ridiculous weapons, ridiculous armour…who can teleport in. And out.

Yet it’s still the Guard and other wings of The Imperium that will roll you up like a carpet and dump you in the lay-by of history.

I think with Marines, they are great at what they are specialised to do, but when caught outside of that their efficacy is greatly reduced. A Marine unit forced to hold ground and denied strike mobility is still going to do a better job than the same number of Guardsmen would... but we see them take heavy casualties in the lore when such things happen. Including complete destruction.

However, against almost all foes, Space Marines typically have the initiative due to their impressive strategic mobility and insane combat tempo and ability to withstand attrition. Marines essentially can carry out missions continuously and shrug of wounds that would kill a human. They can resupply in Thunderhawks or from drop pods.

So a Marine strikeforce wants to be making constant sorties against key targets to maintain strategic initiative and wrongfoot their opponent. This is far, far easier against all but the weakest foes if the PDF and/or Guard is tying the enemy down and doing the dirty job of holding ground. Even when defending a fortress, it is better to have Guardsmen holding the line and Marines counterattacking in key places and sallying forth to attack siege works.

I think 3 Marines is generally going to struggle to do much more than be the leading edge of your otherwise-human strike forces though. Marine forces definitely get disproportionately capable as they get larger- a full company with strike cruiser is enormously more useful than a single squad, which is dramatically better than a single Marine (which is little more than an advisor and bodyguard).

Pretty much only Eldar and Necrons have greater strategic mobility than Marines, although other factions can dramatically reduce Marine mobility (such as 'Nids via spore mines seeded into the atmosphere).

 Overread wrote:
I always find the whole "bolter porn" thing curious. Because marines are always shown as the elite or the elite smashing and destroying everything. Like the game Space Marine on PC where we see a handful of marines turn the tide of battle and your player character do insane feats.


Sometimes I feel like the whole "its all just bolter porn" angle is a bit of a "I play other factions and don't like how one faction is always held up as better"

Well, for me it's exactly this. Gw doesn't tell you "choose wisely: these are the protagonists of the setting, the other factions are npc fodder that we'll mostly neglect lol". You go in expecting each faction to be a valid choice, and at least a valid threat. That's what they sell the setting as, but once you open a book it's all Brothers Boltering Baddies.

When I open a book that's about the Marines or Imperial Guard I darn well expect there to be Boltering Badass stuff going on.

But your codex already gives a bunch of non-marine focused wins; and really its only the Tyranids who have very few books about them from their perspective - and even then they almost ate the Ultramarines (the big showboys of the Bolter Brothers)

I’d agree with that.

And I’d add that on their overall mobility? Don’t underestimate them being able to run faster than most humans for a shockingly sustained period.

Which given man succeeded because were persistence hunters is pretty terrifying stuff, and what makes characters like Jason Voorhees scary - they don’t tire. They don’t seem to need sleep. So there’s little chance of “well force march through the night to open the distance”. Because you are going to reach the limits of your endurance much sooner than the Marines.

Which gives them a peculiar edge in stealth. Put simply, they don’t need transports for the reasons other forces need transports. They carry their own gear, and don’t need to rest up as often or for as long under combat conditions. And in extremis, their armour can pump them full of Go Juice for that extra burst.

Sure, I suspect after such an action they’ll need a comparatively long rest. Superhuman or not, they do tire.

This all helps them get into position ahead of the main attack. Or, on something like an Orbital or a ship? They can maintain their attack for days, even having to cut through or batter down multiple bulkheads. That’s horrible pressure to face as a defender.

Yet….its still the Guard (most typically) who are doing the bulk of the fighting. Grinding you down, keeping your attention on as many fronts as possible. Indeed, the more fronts and salients and that you’re engaged on when the Marines squelch your High Command? The worse the outcome is gonna be, and the quicker the Guard can really give you a thorough kicking. Even then? Against a well lead* Guard force, the Marines are only expediting your demise. Possibly even by years. But sooner or later, the Guard will get the job done.

*Well lead being…super variable thanks to human ego, some planets having a Napoleonic approach of Officers and what have you.

 Overread wrote:
When I open a book that's about the Marines or Imperial Guard I darn well expect there to be Boltering Badass stuff going on.

But your codex already gives a bunch of non-marine focused wins; and really its only the Tyranids who have very few books about them from their perspective - and even then they almost ate the Ultramarines (the big showboys of the Bolter Brothers)

shoutout to Day of Ascension, where

Agreed with others on the bad feelz of your faction being NPC punching bags for the Protagonist Marines.

Space Marine is a good example of the GW Ur Plot (as I'm sure I've posted about on here before)
Space Marines are busy pasting Xenos without much effort. But hang on! Something shady is happening. Maybe the Eldar are involved somewhere being spooky (not in the Space Marine game, but yes in Dawn of War) but then we find out the True Threat!!!! It's CHAOS MARINES! Who are like Space Marines but weaker. We then paste a bunch of these and defeat The True Threat but it doesn't really end well for the Protagonist Marines because of the darned bureaucracy!

Honest explanation of the setting would be something like:
SPACE MARINES, you are the protagonists and main characters. Expect a pile of releases, even if you don't need them, and to be centred in almost every conflict and fiction. You've even got your own game where it's almost entirely about you! There are some UBER SPECIAL EVEN BETTER SPACE MARINES knocking around, but they're still the same basic concept and you guys have more flavours than Americans do ice cream.
IMPERIAL GUARD! You are the SPACE MARINE'S plucky sidekick! A fan favourite, you get to die off in droves, but heroically. It probably makes more sense for you guys to be getting all the variant units and personality, but we mostly stopped doing that in the early 2000s.
CHAOS! We'll big you up as a threat, but you're really here to look scary so the SPACE MARINES look cool. You're wrong, too, wrong and stupid and bad. Choosing what you chose was obviously the Wrong Thing To Do and we want you to know that. We don't really know what to do about you guys - you might get a lot of releases and then bugger all when we sort of forget about you for a while, but you're humans so...
XENOS! Hey, you guys?! Yeah, I remember you. Wow, still using those models? How retro! You guys are the punching bags, the background noise, the colour. Sometimes we'll accidentally make one of you really strong in the rules (it'll probably be Eldar) but in the fiction you're really like a second rate Chaos. There to make the SPACE MARINES look cool. We might also change the entirety of your fiction on a whim and you'd better like it, because that's just how we roll.

Yeah, I'm sure if GW thought they could get away with it they'll just have Space Marines of different flavors and phase out everyone else.

So basically warhammer 30k.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
They don’t.

Except when they do. Logan Grimnar on Armageddon, for example.

But to be fair, that was a centuries old Legend Of The Imperium who's also Chapter Master of one of the First Founding Legions in conflict against literally a Daemon Primarch.
And even so I doubt he just elbowed his way in and went "I'm in charge now".

Much less a regular marine, or squad or company doing that.