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Since I can count on one hand the number of weapons that let me take my big 5+ save.  What would be the thoughts of removing the guard's save all together and reducing them in points cost?  Kind of like a very light infantry doc, either skull takers with warrior weapons and hardend fighters, or primitive leves with auto guns and armor so thin as to not be there.  What would be an appropriate drop?  1-2 points per model?

Well what about hand to hand? You'll always get your save unless the attack doesn't allow it. Not 'many' attacks negate armor save.

Sure shooting wise there aren't many weapons that allow you a save but in hand to hand you'd get it against 75% of the attacks coming your way.

Guard does not win hand to hand. So who cares. Is some one assaults my squad I kiss it goodbye and make sure I am out of consoladation range.

Well it does give me the false hope that when my plasma guys overheat and kill themselves before doing any actual damage, that they will save against it

Bah, gaunts only get a 6+ save. I have a little dance I like to do when a gaunt actually makes one. Id be glad to trade it for a point or two less on the model.

Actually given the number of marine saves I manage to make I'd be more than happy to them prancing around the battlefield au naturel if they were a few points cheaper.

While the save doesn't do squat, that very fact means that losing it shouldn't drop the cost of the things. If Guardsmen are well-pointed where they are now, losing their save and dropping them a single point overpowers them. As you said, it almost never comes into play - you'd end up with cheaper Guardsmen that are just as survivable against just about everything that hits them. Similarly, spinegaunts with no save and for 4 points would be obscene (by which I mean that they would be much better than they are now, not that they would actually stand a chance against Marines for cost).

It might work if you made it an army-wide doctrine and also tied it to another disadvantage, like an inability to take lascannons or plasma guns.

i'd rather be hiding in cover and have it increase from 5+ than --....

Except they are not well pointed now.

Have to agree FOIL, the grunt trooper's point cost has been consistently increased, along with their weapons cost. While a bog standard marine costs twice as much as a bog standard guardsmen (not including the required platoon level HQ costs), they are substantially more than twice as effective.

jfrazell said:
While a bog standard marine costs twice as much as a bog standard guardsmen (not including the required platoon level HQ costs), they are substantially more than twice as effective.

As has been said many times before, a standard Tactical Marine costs 2.5 times that of an Imperial Guardsman but is 18 times more effective in close combat and 18 times more effective in a shootout.

They used to cost 3 times as much as a guardsmen. Beginning of 3rd Ed the marines got dropped to 15 and guard to 5. The first guard codex came out and the designer said he was sick of seeing so many models on the field so he made them a point higher to force there to be less of them. He was proud of the fact that he had made them more expensive than what they should have been because of a personal preference.

Yeesh.

1 BS4 Heavy Bolter over 6 turns vs Guardsmen in 5+ cover = 6.67 dead or 40+/- points worth.

1 BS4 Heavy Bolter over 6 turns vs Marines = 2.67 dead or 40+/- points worth.

You make Guardsmen 5 points a model, and the Heavy Bolter becomes a more effective MEQ weapon than an GEQ weapon. I fully agree with the 6 point per Guardsmen cost. It's a balance thing. You would not be able to clear them off the table if they were any cheaper. The only Guard infantry thing that should get cheaper are their weapon options (5 for a GL, 8 for a Plasma, 5 for an HB, 12 for ACs and MLs and 20 for Lascannons).

BYE

1 BS4 Heavy Bolter over 6 turns vs Guardsmen = 10.4 dead or 60+/- points worth
1 BS4 Bolter over 6 turns vs guardsmen = 2.66 or 16 points worth
1 bs3 lasgun over 6 turns vs guardsmen = 1 or 6 points worth
1 bs3 lasgun over 6 turns vs Marine = .3333 dead or 5 points worth.
1 bs3 missle launcher over 6 turns vs marines = 2.6 dead or 39 points worth.

Hmmmm..... Sorry HBMC but the numbers do not support you except for in your limited example.

BYE

"Hmmmm..... Sorry HBMC but the numbers do not support you except for in your limited example."

And you fail to consider that Guardsmen spend most of their time in cover, so not including a cover save in your limited examples invalidates your results.

BYE

Given that a 5+ will reduce your casualties by a third in close combat, removing the armour will make guard assault so bad as to be laughable. As it stands, they're a decent match for gaunts, guardians and ork boyz (assuming the charge).

Removing the save for a reduced points cost is both unnecessary and unbalancing.

Besides which, you must suffer from a serious case of polydactyly if you can count all the AP? and AP6 weaponry in the game on one hand!

Cpl that is balance. You make them cheaper, so that makes them worse in close combat. But now you have more of them so that it is harder to get into close combat. Seems very guard like to me. We shoot from trenches.

HBMC, Ture, I did not give the guard a cover save, but then I did not give the marines a cover save either. I just think that it is very interesting that over a 6 turn game a guardsman will kill 5 points of marines, and if guardsmen were 5 points as well they would kill 5 points of guardsmen. Also though it was interesting that as it stands now a marine would kill 16 points of guardsmen.

My objection is based on the fact that you seem to be proposing a fix to something that isn't broken.

Removing the save strengthens the guard's firepower (more bodies) and reduces its assault effectiveness (worse bodies).

Since the guard already play as a firepower-leaning army, you're tipping the balance to make the games very one-sided. As it stands, assault armies often make contact, but the potential exists in the current guard list to throw the assault back (with a little luck from the dice).

Your proposed change means that medium assault armies (eldar, footslogging orks etc) will generally be either shot down on turn 2, or contact and completely butcher the guard, with little hope of doing anything ? and make the game a little less fun.

Add in Hardened Fighters doctrine and you can hold your own for a short while in the Assault phase.

No, seriously, stop laughing! It's possible! I've done it!

Hardened Fighters does not make your squads better at HTH. All it does is make your squads worth 15 more VP's each when they are eventually slaughtered.

Hardened Fighters, along with Cybernetic Enhancements, are the two worst Doctrines in the Codex.

BYE

Why not make so you take this option and in return your allowed to choose anouther Doctrine. you could make up a whole list of negitve Doc's to choose from w/ ea one allowing you to take more positve Doc's.

Alright, now I might be mistaken, but I have always figured that point costs weren't really meant to be compared acrossed armies. The value of a squad of space marines to guard is actually more than that same squad to space marines if you think about it, because suddenly you have a BS4 unit with better guns and a decent chance in HTH, in a space marine army you're just more of the same. Also lets note that the Guard are ALREADY cheaper than pretty much everything but spineguants and gretchen why drop their price? I'll take 10 guard over 10 spine gaunts any day, and I'd still take 10 guard over 10 gretchen for twice the price and 10 guard over 20 gretchen for the same.