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 ScarletRose wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Quixote wrote:
Archeon and Sigmar are the lost Primarchs, sent through a warp storm to some planet (That officially sat in the 40k universe) where they established themselves as rulers, just like their brothers, and ended up in essentially their own eternal war.

That one's not particularly out there. Back in the day, the studio did drop a statement that the Warhammer world was a part of the 40k universe (it was part of the justification for early 40k just taking WHFB stuff, scifiying it up a little and calling the job a good'un), and there were numerous hints over the years that Sigmar might be a Primarch.

They've moved the background in a different direction now, but it was a really, really commonly held idea.

I still remember the Albion campaign GW rolled out for WHFB (6th ed? 7th?) and it introduced a number of campaign wargear items that were just 40k equipment. Stuff that was clearly a powerfist, flamer, lasgun etc.

High elves basically got power armor. 3+ save and +1 strength

the first time i ever learned about 40k was as a kid at a summer camp. on the bus to the camp, i sat next to a kid who played, and we spent the whole time going back and force between MTG (my interest) and 40k (his)

for some reason, he decided that the best way to get me interested in the setting was to spend the entire trip talking about the squats and how they got removed from the game. no wonder it took until i was an adult to become interested in the game

i guess the opinion in this case is that squats being removed from the game is the most interesting thing in 40k

 insaniak wrote:

 Quixote wrote:
Archeon and Sigmar are the lost Primarchs, sent through a warp storm to some planet (That officially sat in the 40k universe) where they established themselves as rulers, just like their brothers, and ended up in essentially their own eternal war.

That one's not particularly out there. Back in the day, the studio did drop a statement that the Warhammer world was a part of the 40k universe (it was part of the justification for early 40k just taking WHFB stuff, scifiying it up a little and calling the job a good'un), and there were numerous hints over the years that Sigmar might be a Primarch.

They've moved the background in a different direction now, but it was a really, really commonly held idea.

The Albion worldwide campaign in the early 00's saw various factions awarded 40k gear as 'magic items'. Dwarves got a suit of power armor, and the Dark Elves got a power fist.

I had no idea that WHFB had all this to it. I thought all the wackiness was confined to the Skaven and the Mordheim game.

I'm guessing Age of Sigmar doesn't have anything like this.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
the first time i ever learned about 40k was as a kid at a summer camp. on the bus to the camp, i sat next to a kid who played, and we spent the whole time going back and force between MTG (my interest) and 40k (his)

for some reason, he decided that the best way to get me interested in the setting was to spend the entire trip talking about the squats and how they got removed from the game. no wonder it took until i was an adult to become interested in the game

i guess the opinion in this case is that squats being removed from the game is the most interesting thing in 40k

Oh, he was just playing the long game. He planted the Warhammer 40k seed in your mind, so it would blossom all those years later.

I salute you, poor social skills guy, for your amazing strategy.

 Quixote wrote:
I had no idea that WHFB had all this to it. I thought all the wackiness was confined to the Skaven and the Mordheim game.

I'm guessing Age of Sigmar doesn't have anything like this.

You'd be wrong. Oh, so very wrong...

 BorderCountess wrote:

 Quixote wrote:
I had no idea that WHFB had all this to it. I thought all the wackiness was confined to the Skaven and the Mordheim game.

I'm guessing Age of Sigmar doesn't have anything like this.

You'd be wrong. Oh, so very wrong...

Care to educate me? Or point me in a direction where I can correct my less-than-accurate views.

The Skaven are certainly the epitome of wackiness, but Warhammer in general is full of it.

During the End Times, after the Skaven shot down a moon, the Slaan all decided, "Welp, this place is borked, time to go," and climbed into their stone starships and left the planet.

Then Slaanesh showed up and ate a bunch of elves, including Morathi. While Slaanesh was in a food coma, Tzeentch arranged for them to be captured by the New Gods, who started coaxing elven souls out of their gullet - except for Morathi, who had to crawl out on her own and was now effectively a Daemon Prince.

After the World-That-Was got eaten by a Chaos rift, all that was left was a tiny chunk floating in the void, with Sigmar (in the body Karl Franz) clutching onto it. Then the World Dragon flew by, stuff happened, and the Mortal Realms popped into being. Then the New Gods (who were just the most powerful heroes from the World-That-Was, including the previously-exploded Teclis) rebuilt civilzation.

Then the Chaos gods saw it and wandered back over, and got Archaon to burn it all down again. Then Sigmar went full-Emperor and crafted his Space Marines Stormcast Eternals and launched his own Great Crusade.

Edit: Have I made it obvious that I generally hate the Age of Sigmar as a setting?

Here’s one I just saw on the Warhammer thread of another forum:

“Codex Marines is a shallow codex.”

I don't know, from someone purely playing against them, I sort of agree. It's wide, for sure, but it has no depth. Playing against marines has very little nuance or surprises, most of their power comes from datasheets rather than tactical plays. Almost as if every single one of them were using the same old tricks from a single book.

Wait...

 BorderCountess wrote:


Edit: Have I made it obvious that I generally hate the Age of Sigmar as a setting?

So no secret rendezvous with Age of Sigmar under the pale moonlight?

No passing love notes in class?

Or is your hatred a cover for an illicit love affair with Age of Sigmar, that you must keep secret as you are afraid of the scorn of others? Did you see her in the shop yesterday? She was totally into that Stormhost. Can you believe it?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:


Edit: Have I made it obvious that I generally hate the Age of Sigmar as a setting?

So no secret rendezvous with Age of Sigmar under the pale moonlight?

No passing love notes in class?

Or is your hatred a cover for an illicit love affair with Age of Sigmar, that you must keep secret as you are afraid of the scorn of others? Did you see her in the shop yesterday? She was totally into that Stormhost. Can you believe it?

No.

Age of Sigmar was born from the ashes of my beloved Old World, and I'm generally disinclined to forgive it. The Old World felt like a proper setting; more than a decade on and the Mortal Realms don't feel like a proper setting with locations that matter. The fall of Ulthuan during the End Times had an impact - with possible exception of Hammerhal, the Mortal Realms lack any kind of familiar space. Heck, they could nuke an entire Realm and it wouldn't have even a fraction of the impact the Fall of Cadia did.

Also, I'm still not a fan of that Change-damned double turn.

...I think I've derailed this thread enough.

 Quixote wrote:
Archeon and Sigmar are the lost Primarchs, sent through a warp storm to some planet (That officially sat in the 40k universe) where they established themselves as rulers, just like their brothers, and ended up in essentially their own eternal war.

That one is inviolable canon!

OK how about "GW creates all its fluff on its own, NEVER taking inspiration from the real world or other fiction" That's what they used, under oath, in the Chapterhouse lawsuit

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
... That's what they used, under oath, in the Chapterhouse lawsuit

...while surreptitiously hiding Sly Marbo behind that busted injection moulding machine at the back of the warehouse...

I don't think that GW did claim that they don't take inspiration from any other source(s).
They claimed that they take inspiration from a vast range of sources (including clouds IIRC...) but that they didn't directly lift anything unaltered from it's source in a manner which breaks copyright or infringes on trademarks - unlike Chapterhouse.

Worst is that everything in the setting is satire. Which is 100% horse gak used by progressive imbeciles to insult real fans who genuinely like the setting and the Imperium. Way to common to see this crap spewed on social media.

I suspect you're Mandela Effect-ing that, Damocles - I remember the reaction to the statement in the transcripts at the time, and it was not nuanced at all.

Wayniac wrote:
Worst is that everything in the setting is satire. Which is 100% horse gak used by progressive imbeciles to insult real fans who genuinely like the setting and the Imperium. Way to common to see this crap spewed on social media.

Yeah, the whole idea that you shouldn't take the setting's internal consistency seriously because it's "satirical" and fictional never sat right with me. Sure, GW changes it on a dime, but that doesn't mean you have to like or support such a practice. That just means they are bad writers and don't really care about the setting's integrity.
Imagine if Tolkien, in an attempt to break into the American market, wrote a sequel to LoTR that had burgers and replaced Legolas's bow with a M1 Garand which the Elves always had but didn't use for...reasons. That is how GW do.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Worst is that everything in the setting is satire. Which is 100% horse gak used by progressive imbeciles to insult real fans who genuinely like the setting and the Imperium. Way to common to see this crap spewed on social media.

Yeah, the whole idea that you shouldn't take the setting's internal consistency seriously because it's "satirical" and fictional never sat right with me. Sure, GW changes it on a dime, but that doesn't mean you have to like or support such a practice. That just means they are bad writers and don't really care about the setting's integrity.
Imagine if Tolkien, in an attempt to break into the American market, wrote a sequel to LoTR that had burgers and replaced Legolas's bow with a M1 Garand which the Elves always had but didn't use for...reasons. That is how GW do.

My biggest issue is that it gets trotted out by political activists who pretend to be Warhammer fans so they can argue that people disagreeing with their political views and not wanting them to shove left-wing politics into every franchise (e.g., female Space Marines) are somehow not real fans or "the game's making fun of you, chud". It's so tiresome.

I'd go into more detail but it would become political and none of us want that lol.

Wayniac wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Worst is that everything in the setting is satire. Which is 100% horse gak used by progressive imbeciles to insult real fans who genuinely like the setting and the Imperium. Way to common to see this crap spewed on social media.

Yeah, the whole idea that you shouldn't take the setting's internal consistency seriously because it's "satirical" and fictional never sat right with me. Sure, GW changes it on a dime, but that doesn't mean you have to like or support such a practice. That just means they are bad writers and don't really care about the setting's integrity.
Imagine if Tolkien, in an attempt to break into the American market, wrote a sequel to LoTR that had burgers and replaced Legolas's bow with a M1 Garand which the Elves always had but didn't use for...reasons. That is how GW do.

My biggest issue is that it gets trotted out by political activists who pretend to be Warhammer fans so they can argue that people disagreeing with their political views and not wanting them to shove left-wing politics into every franchise (e.g., female Space Marines) are somehow not real fans or "the game's making fun of you, chud". It's so tiresome.

You are objectively wrong, since GW themselves said it:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/1Xpzeld6/the-imperium-is-driven-by-hate-warhammer-is-not/

I'd go into more detail but it would become political...

Too late.

...and none of us want that lol.

Given the reaction to the reveal of female Custodes, I'm pretty sure there's very much a group of people who want that. Mostly the rage-fueled click-baiters.

Modern GW can say whatever crap they want, we know it's horsegak because the OG creators specifically said it wasn't satire.

Or, and this may be controversial, users could not post political hot takes in the first place. Then things wouldn't get political...

I don't remember any GW designers ever saying 40k wasn't satirical. I remember a specific denial that Gazhkull was a shot at Margaret Thatcher, but extending that to 'take what the Imperium has to say about itself at face value, this isn't meant at *all* as commentary' is a Mr. Fantastic-length stretch.



^not satire?



^not satire?



^not satire?

40k is deeply malleable and the background changes constantly, and that's built into it from the ground up and the way the company runs things. That can be frustrating, but it's kind of the nature of the beast with big corporate franchises. I don't think there's any way to genuinely look at where it came from and say that it only wanted you to engage with it on the surface. That's been there from the beginning.

Ozymandian wrote:
I don't remember any GW designers ever saying 40k wasn't satirical. I remember a specific denial that Gazhkull was a shot at Margaret Thatcher, but extending that to 'take what the Imperium has to say about itself at face value, this isn't meant at *all* as commentary' is a Mr. Fantastic-length stretch.

There was an interview with Rick Priestly floating around a while back where he mentions that they didn't set out specifically to write satire, they were just having fun and throwing stuff at the wall.

The material they were drawing inspiration from (ahem, sorry, the things that were springing wholesale from their own heads without any outside influence whatsoever) were very definitely satirical, though, and that permeated the setting as a result.

Gotcha. I must have missed that one. Someone must have realized what those influences were bringing in the door pretty quickly, then. Like...planets devoted to storing useless paperwork, the Imperium zealously hunting down the Sensei, the entirety of the Mechanicus...

I think they toned it done in 3rd ed where they tried to make a more "serious" and coherent setting. The over the top silly aspects were more prevalent in the prototypical Rogue Trader edition.

I mean, sure, but satire and over-the-top silly aren't the same thing, and even 'serious' 40k has stuff like the Rite of Percussive Maintenance or the Calixian Infantryman's Portable Communications Transcription Device.

Most people seem to confuse satire and referencing.

40K isn't satirical because there was an illustration which (maybe) references the Nuremburg Rally.

Just like the Starship Troopers movie isn't a satire of fascism just because Neil Patrick Harris is wearing a black leather longcoat.

Satire actually has to be saying something [meaningful] about the topic being satirised.

Ozymandian wrote:
I mean, sure, but satire and over-the-top silly aren't the same thing, and even 'serious' 40k has stuff like the Rite of Percussive Maintenance or the Calixian Infantryman's Portable Communications Transcription Device.

That's still not satire though, that's just a joke referencing the common human practice of hitting things to make it work, and I'm pretty sure its a hold-over from Rogue Trader.
Rogue Trader is more like an alpha or beta than 1st edition; it was to establish various ideas and concepts that would later be refined or outright moved. So stuff like Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau was dropped when they started refining the setting in 3rd edition, but they kept some of the jokes because otherwise it would be misery all the time and some levity is needed to contrast the horrific nature of the 40k setting.

Consider Puck or Isidro from Berserk; they are silly, and yet their existence doesn't make Berserk silly as it is still a brutal, bleak setting where horrible things happen to decent (and occasionally indecent) people.

The issue with 40k is that it appears that there is an assumption that 40k is a comedy with horrific elements when it should really be a horror with one or two jokes thrown in so that it's not too overwhelmingly depressing.

or, maybe, perhaps, warhammer 40k is many different things at once, and you can't ascribe one single tone to the entire thing at once