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This is my first squad of termies as they were last sunday.

 

 

 

When I get home tomorrow I will be doing the final building of them and hopefully painting them on saturday and sunday (I will take pics with my good camera in sunlight before I paint them). One is blacked out hopefully for entry into a comp (he has a bolter and pfist) the two on the left are glued, the other two aren't, and can be changed. I'll be buying 3 more squads of termies, so I'll obviously be having 2 squads with 2x assault cannon.

My question is, for a fluff gamer / painter / someone who would like to win games, all rolled into one, are heavy flamers and cyclones really a terrible choice? Should I definately convert the flamers into assault cannons, or can a list (scouts, termies, dreads, pods) still compete with, for example, 2  assault cannon squads, 1 cyclone squad, and 1 hvy flamer squad? (pods on the flamers and one / possibly both assault cannon squads).

Also, should I include chainfists? If so, on which models?

"My question is, for a fluff gamer / painter / someone who would like to win games, all rolled into one, are heavy flamers and cyclones really a terrible choice?"

It's not that Cyclones and Heavy Flamers are bad weapons, it is that Assault Cannons are just so completely superior to both of them that it is just not worth taking anything but.

BYE

Always include at least 1 chainfist, and put him on the model you expect to remove from play last (ie... probably an assault cannon terminator). You just never know when you might need that extra D6 for armor pen, and at 5 points... it's almost criminal NOT to take 1.

Agree with both Ki and HBMC

So, let's assume you're a gamer on a budget with two basic terminator boxes and limited bitz. The two assault cannons are an easy decision. What's your second heavy weapon combo (esp. given CoD)? Tank-hunting cyclones or heavy flamers?

If you are going to be using citis of death those heavy flamers just got good!

Anything that takes away that 4 plus invulnerable must cheer you up.

I recently played my first "CoD" game.  I had a blast, and I want another go at it. 

If I get the rules right, terminators with two heavy flamers can cook infantry on two levels of a building with those templates, before moving in to take out the trash.

Posted By Straxus on 07/07/2006 2:47 AM
So, let's assume you're a gamer on a budget with two basic terminator boxes and limited bitz. The two assault cannons are an easy decision. What's your second heavy weapon combo (esp. given CoD)? Tank-hunting cyclones or heavy flamers?

For $2 you can get a tornado assault cannon bit. So no excuses!

If you just can't take Assault Cannons (and like mauleed said, no excuses) than the only other decent option is two Cyclones with Tank Hunters.

Posted By Straxus on 07/07/2006 2:47 AM
So, let's assume you're a gamer on a budget with two basic terminator boxes and limited bitz. The two assault cannons are an easy decision. What's your second heavy weapon combo (esp. given CoD)? Tank-hunting cyclones or heavy flamers?

Yup, that's a good way of phrasing it. I another way is "Are cyclones and flamers so overwhelmingly poor (in comparison to assault cannons) that I would be crazy to take anything else?"

The reason I posted a wip pic and mentioned fluff gaming / painting, is because I'm not massively concerned with taking slightly worse weaponry if my hobby experience is improved and my squads look more varied. I just don't want to end up with an unplayable army that I will not enjoy using.

The asault cannon is under-priced, I get that from reading dakka. If you guys had to alter the price of it, how much would you bump it up by? (maybe if I had some sort of numerical data my decision would be easier).

Are there any statistical comparisons for the various termie weapons anywhere on dakka? (it's been a while since I visited dakka. I've read half of the big CoD thread, but I can't find any termie specific posts, I guess I'm not going back far enough).

Some of your decision should also be based on your play style. Are you planing on teleporting your termies in whenever possible? Are you going to have them foot slogging in? Are you goign to put them in a land raider? Are you going to be doing a lot of city fighting? Are you going up against a lot of hord armies? Do you play in heavily terrained boards?

All of these things matter. In a general straight up fight at medium to close range, the assault cannon is hands down the best weapon you can take (and possibly the best weapon in the game). Its super good at takeing out both troops and tanks so its kind of a no brainer. The mitigating circumstances that would put the other weapons over the top are generaly range and cover. If you are going to be doing foot slogging, then you may want to consider the cyclone since it has double the range. If you are going up against lots of hordes or playing on boards where your opponent is likely to be sitting in cover all the time, you may want to consider the heavy flamer (and that's just a maybe).

All in all, its difficult to go wrong with the assault cannon where as you can go wrong with the others.

As for chain fists, its rare that I see them be really useful (how often is 3 str 8 attacks just not good enough to get though vehical armor) but for 5 points it couldn't hurt much to take one or two. They do look cool.

Yes, you do definetly need to convert the heavy flamers to assault cannons. Or buy a land speeder tornado assault cannon. Normal termies suck. Normal termies with 2 assault cannons kick ass!

So, your squads should be

5 Terminators- 240pts
2 Assault Cannons.

Maybe add a 6th terminator so you need to lose 4 before surrendering victory points. Do not add chainfists. Powerfists will work fine against vehicles, you get so many attacks! Chainfists are a waste of points. Your assault cannons should have ripped through the vehicles anyway. Do not add tank hunters. You will either roll that 6 for rending, or you wont. Tank hunters will only help against armour value 12 or less, and you should have other stuff to take out those targets, but massed assault cannon fire will kill them regardless.

I use 12 assault cannons in my 1500pt list, and 14 in my 2000pt list. They really are that good!

And I can tell you now, if my termies were not armed with 2 assault cannons, most of the time they would never have lived to the end of the game. They have been up against Leman Russes, Carnosaurs, Taloses, massed GEQ fire, nasty CC units...and the addition of 2 assault cannons enables them to kill those tanks and nasty CC units at long range, and compete with a shooty force in the shooting phase.

2 Assault Cannons is the only way to go, even in cityfight...sorry.

As a note, before the new Assault Cannon rules, Termies were almost unseen in tournie armies.

It is pretty safe to say that the only reason that they are so popular now is for the AssCans.

Sorry, but the other ones probably aren't worth the points. You would almost positively be better off spending the points on almost anything else in the Marine codex than Termies w/o AssCans

5 points for a close combat melta-weapon is a "waste of points?" I beg to differ. It's some of the cheapest insurance you can buy against vehicles. All you need is one model with it. And I put the chainfist on a storm bolter model. That way if I take more wounds than I have models, I force my opponent to nominate a model with either a heavy weapon or the chainfist. 99 times out of 100 the wound goes on an assault cannon model and, if I should fail the save, I at least retain the chainfist. It's pretty easy to predict if I'm going to use the chainfist in a battle, so I always have the option to remove it as a casualty on my own, and 5 extra points to my enemy isn't going to make that big of a difference at the end of a game. On the other hand, putting it on an assault cannon model just makes that model into a bigger target.

Heavy flamers may be competitive in Cities of Death, but I haven't played enough of it yet to be sure. Other than that, there's no good reason not to have assault cannons as your terminators weapon of choice, doubly so if your army includes dreads.

Ezz

Yes, chainfists are a waste of points. How often will you actually get into combat with a vehicle? Hardly ever, your assault cannons should have taken the vehicle out anyway. Powerfists by themselves will work just fine against dreads, and aginst predators and other tanks the sheer number of powerfist attacks will cripple them.

5pts is 5pts too many. That 5pts could be used for extra armour on your dreadnought.

And if your dreadnought already HAS extra armor?

Nothing wrong with a chainfist here and there. Who you give it to is all about choices. Torrent of fire is a pretty rare rule and I have very few experiences where it actually came into play. With that in mind, the chainfist definetely goes on an AssCan Termie. That way, you KNOW which models you are pulling and he should be last.

Sgt usually dies first, followed by the two storm bolter dudes.

Chainfists are hardly "dead weight".

Why the Searge first? I would think the power sword is an excellent incentive to discourage assaulters.

Because the sarge and the regular terminator both have the same number of attacks and roll to hit the same. However, most people prefer to roll 2+ to wound/kill instead of 4+ (assuming MEQ, of course).

Now if you gave them "furious charge", the choice becomes harder. On a regular squad, or tank hunter squad... the choice is easy.

It always bugged me that they made the Terminator Sarge the least imposing model in the group.

Not to mention my tyranid fexs pay 1pt each for flesh hooks (frags) and if your sarge is alive the fexs (init1) attack before the fist terminators! when assualting cover (thus cover HURTS you.....nice)

Yeah, but when being assaulted by nasty power weapon weilding types, or even orks if they get the drop on you, wouldn't it be nice to have someone taking casualties a little earlier.

Admittably, nicer if you have a higher initiative, but simultaneous is better than dead.

KiMonarrez, then I could add a heavy bolter to a space marine/scout squad. Smoke Launchers for the dread? Extra armour for the other dread...or the other one (I use 3).

Extra CC weapon for your HQ? Frag grenades for a 5 man squad? An extra Plasma Pistol for your assault marines?

Whichever way you look at it, the Chainfist is 5pts wasted. The assault cannons will have killed the vehicle before combat.

KiMonarrez, then I could add a heavy bolter to a space marine/scout squad. Smoke Launchers for the dread? Extra armour for the other dread...or the other one (I use 3).

Right, and what if you've already handed out all the Heavy Weapons you want to, bought all the Smokes and Extra Armor, etc? You seem to be confusing the fact that Chainfists are an easy thing to drop, with them being a poor value. They're a great value, but they don't make or break the unit.

Whichever way you look at it, the Chainfist is 5pts wasted. The assault cannons will have killed the vehicle before combat.

It's 5 points. It's an excellent value. As I said above, it doesn't make or break the unit, but a Chainfist makes the unit a major CC threat to any vehicle in the game. A Powerfist has a one in six chance to Glance AV14, assuming it hits. A Chainfist will Penetrate AV14 with an average roll. Even an AV12 Dreadnought can shrug off Power Fists with a little luck, but a Chainfist will rarely fail to Penetrate it. It's only 5 points, and it makes the unit extremely dangerous to vehicles they assault. It's a solid value.

Also, consider how many points you've invested in the Terminators and Cannons. Sure, they can blast vehicles, but a lot of times you'll get Shaken, Stunned, Immobilized, etc. If they can walk up and finish it off, that's definitely worth 5 points to keep that unit shooting at new targets, rather than just trying to re-stun that Land Raider again.

So, it's not "5 points wasted whichever way I look at it." For example, here's a way to look at it: I've got a list I'm happy with, and I've got 5 points to spare. All the vehicles have Smoke and X-Armor, all the troops have Heavy Weapons. I add a Chainfist to my Terminators.

I happen to be very stringent when it comes to WYSIWYG for my armies, so if I have a model with a Chainfist, then he's got a Chainfist. I chose to model my Term HQs with one Chainfist per squad. There may come a time when I wish I could shave that 5 points, but it's not the open and shut case you want it to be.

I tend to agree that two assault cannons and three powerfists in your average terminator command squad of 300+ points should take out most vehicle armor without a problem.  However, I have zero problems with adding a single chainfist for five points to crank up the odds against any vehicle that strays too close.  For me, its a very affordable and effective piece of wargear (especially considering the overall unit cost).

My limited experience has already seen a veteran sergeant flail his fist against a vehicle that should have died in the first two rounds he swung at it, let alone the 3+ before he died...  :S

I had thought that nearly everyone put it on one of the assault cannon terminators.  Now that I've heard the reasons for putting it on a seperate model, I've gone back through my codexes and copies of white dwarf.  Seems there's a decent split between the two theories for who gets the fist, based on the models I've seen in the photographs.

Thanks for the suggestion on converting extra assault cannons.  I'm already looking around for a step-by-step walkthrough with photos.  I'm sure there's one somewhere.

-Picture courtesy of Pea, member of Bolter & Chainsword

From the thread:

http://bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=90756&hl=assault+cannon

Nice conversion!

For the points, chainfists are an awesome value. Can you use the points for other things? Sure, especially in a full marine army. My opinion may be colored by the fact that I play Deathwing, hence my options to spend small chunks of points are fairly limited. Also, the fact that I have so few models to deploy makes versatility a true treasure. I agree that powerfists can take on all of the opposition you've mentioned, but what if the squad has already taken casualties? What if the Dread gets lucky and drops two terminators before they get to strike? The powerfists do a good job of taking down the opposition you mentioned, but the chainfists virtually guarantee it. It's like buying insurance. Small premium so I don't have to worry.

Ezz

Hi, first post and great forum.  I play a friend who loves to field lots of Genestealers and Hormaguants. I have been using lots of Assault Cannons (Terminators and Tornado Land Speeders, dreadnaughts) Heavy bolters, and plasma and they seem to help but a lot are still getting to my Tac Squads. I have not used flamers in 4th Ed. yet. Are they effective against Stealers/Gaunts? I was thinking of replacing 1 of the 2 Assault cannons on the terminators with a heavy flamer and adding 2 flamers to an assault squad. It seems though that everyone favors the AC, thoughts?

Against stealers, don't use flamers for one reason. If you're in range to use it, they're in range to charge you. Also putting them in the assault squad will mean that you'll be out of charge range come your assault phase (if you plan to shoot/charge). Plus AC's ignore even improved carapace saves and are generally more useful against the big bugs than a [heavy] flamer.

What overall does your list and his list look like?

Last week I played against a Tyranid player who deployed 2 squads of 10 genestealers in escalation. He went second, so on my turn 2, both of my dreads drop-podded in and each landed close to a squad of genestealers. Between the heavy flamer template and the assault cannon on each dread, ALL 20 genestealers were dead in one shooting phase. Needless to say, my opponent was completely demoralized.

Good times.

Darrian