Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Right, ive decided to post my army list on here, to get some feedback on it. Its done OK so far, only losing to a beardy blood angel player with 14 beardy death company. I tell you, death company need toning down..anyway, heres the list...

HQ

Commander- 60pts

Elites

Dreadnought- 110pts
Extra Armour, Assault Cannon, Dreadnought CC Weapon

Dreadnought- 110pts
Extra Armour, Assault Cannon, Dreadnought CC Weapon

Dreadnought- 110pts
Extra Armour, Assault Cannon, Dreadnought CC Weapon

Troops

5 Scouts- 65pts
Bolters

5 Scouts- 70pts
4 Bolters, 1 Heavy Bolter

Fast Attack

3 Land Speeder Tornados- 240pts
Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons

3 Land Speeder Tornados- 240pts
Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons

3 Land Speeder Tornados- 240pts
Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons

Heavy Support

Whirlwind- 85pts

Whirlwind- 85pts

Whirlwind- 85pts

1500pts.

The plan is basically to shoot the enemy to death with 12 assault cannons and 10 heavy bolters, while shooting them with the whirlwinds. The scouts will infiltrate and start shooting at the enemy, and the dreadnoughts will shoot at the enemy aswell. We just keep on shooting until the enemy is dead.

What do you think? Any ideas to improve it?

Oh, the irony . . .

He calls another preson "beardy" and then posts a list like this.

It doesn't get much better than that.

If playing with that list, I would be worried about escallation.  Maybe give the dreads a drop pod. to get them in 24" range for a turn before they get blown away.

Your going to have trouble against shooty MEQs.

They will be at the back of the board and shoot the speeders, then the deadnoughts as they get in range.

HQ needs a wpn. He can't stand there naked and do nothing, he has to stand there naked wtih a bolter (1pt) and i am okay with that.

david

Idea: Build a real list
I cannot think of a single tier 1 list that isn't going to absolutely stomp on this.

Not enough models.

With the 3 model speeder squadron, you run into the "if one vehicle is stunned, then the whole squadron can't move, unless you voluntarily destroy the other speeder." sort of situation.

You get 12 assault cannons on 12 AV < 12 vehicles. That's pretty fragile. Sure you can do a lot of damage on the first turn of shooting, but each return fire hit degrades your firepower.

It's a one trick pony list that will have a great deal of trouble against solid opposition.

Ebon, a single squad of death company are beardier than my list. The death company are cheese incarnate!!

SunTzu, the idea is that as everything important starts off the board, I wont be sat there and get half my army decimated, before the other half comes on. With everything off the board (except the scouts and useless commander), I can hide behind terrain turn 1, and while my vehicles come pouring through, i just sit behind terrain until I have enough vehicles to launch a decent attack, which will probably be turn 3. Until then, I sit behind terrain and dont do alot.

If I was to give all 3 dreads a drop pod, I would need to fine 90pts. Now, to do this I would have to drop a whirlwind and the scouts heavy bolter...not sure whether that would be any better or not...I do find whirlwinds work best in 3s...

I have never found getting in range with the dreads a problem to be honest. Use terrain well, use your whirlwinds to make them have to advannce to you, then blow em away with assault cannons.

Blackmoor, against shooty MEQ (6 squads of las plas, 3 preds), I sit behind terrain with my vehicles and infantry, and simply shoot them to bits with the whirlwinds. Sure, I dont kill their entire army, but as long as 3 whirlwinds can get me 151+ victory points in 6 turns, I will win (assuming victory points are used).

I wont just merrily advance straight down the middle with my dreads and speeders. I will use cover until a good attack can be launched.

Bunniegodd, where would you suggest to find the 1pt from? Its not illegal to field a HQ with no equippment, he doesn't HAVE to have a weapon. The thing I would have to drop to give him some (very) basic equippment would be either extra armour on the dreads (and dreads desperatly need extra armour) or the heavy bolter on the scouts (and a heavy bolter is better than a normal bolter).

DarkHellion, by tier 1 lists I assume you mean 9 oblit iron warriors  ,eldar with a huge seer council, and 6 carnifex tyranids. Well, as for the tyranids, rending hits will kill the carnifexes, and then I will turn the wrath of the assault cannon on the genestealers. I dont regard the 6 carnifexes as a particually strong list.

As for the seer council, the idea is I use my maneuvarability to stay away from them, shoot their fragile war walkers to bits, and whirlwinds their guardians with starcannons. Then turn EVERYTHING on the council, never putting myself in a position to be charged (just keep moving backwards...).

PapaNurgle, the idea is that there is no return fire. If I think I cant destroy all the nasty stuff in one glorious round of shooting, I just keep dodging behind cover, and shoot the enemy to death with whirlwinds. Obviously, this list will eat non MEQ because of the 4 shots of the assault cannon and all the heavy bolters. Against MEQ it will still do good, relying on rending and the sheer amount of shots to punch through their armour.

The one thing I always have problems with is when I face a monolith. I cant destroy it, because the giant cheese vehicle ignores rending! Most annoying...can still kill the necrons and go for a phase out though...

I'm sorry, you have absolutely no right calling anything cheese when your list look like that. Unless your definition of cheese is anything you can't kill with an assault cannon, in which case, get some tactics. Although, from your response, you need those anyway.

Assuming you play someone who can't shoot back you will be able to hide and shoot, but I think a couple squads of devastators would give you serious trouble in escallation, and a total drop pod army would smoke this list - just get within 12" of your WW and they're useless.

theoretically it would only take 15 shots to leave you with 10 scouts and a streaking commander. 

Platuan4th, cheese is anything that I cannot crush easily. Death Company are not easily crushed, therefore death company are cheese.

SunTzu, I have not yet had the pleasure of playing against an all drop pod list. Hell, ive never played a marine army with more than 2 drop pods!

I can envision me having serious problems with it though, as it takes away one of my main advantages- getting the first shot.

I guess I would go behind terrain, in the hope that the enemy scattersbehind the terrain, so cannot shoot me. I was also make sure I moved more than 6 inches with my land speeders the previous turn, and I would move the dreads and whirlwinds into cover to gain obscured rolls. The risk of immobilising a whirlwind is nothing compared to the risk of them been destroyed turn 2 by drop podders. Get everything close together, and try to survive the inital assault. If I survive that I should be able to destroy the enemy with assault cannons.

I never understand why people post army lists and then summarily dismiss anyone who offers advice... why even bother?

Anyway... I think you should lose enough points somewhere to add Tigerius in a drop pod.

Oh, and in case you were wondering, I've heard that the hood thing he wears doesn't double the area of effect of the fear of darkness power...

Wow.... just, wow. That's exactly what I thought you'd say. Baka. I think I can feel my brain cells dying.

Edit: Where do you hail from, anyway? I wanna bring a tournament level list against this pile of trash and then get called cheesy when I appropriately annihilate you.

En Guard, im not dismissing their arguements, just trying to analyse why they think their version of the army is better.

165pts for tiggy+75 for retinue= 240+30= 270pts would be needed to find. Well, 210, as I wouldn't need the commander now. What would you drop to get Tiggy?

Platuan4th, you know its true.

Im from Lancashire, in England.

I know what's true? That you're an idiot? I never needed that proven to me.

Burn, you are an idiot of the highest order aren't you? Do you understand that other lists do field mobile elements, that 9 landspeeders are ridiculously fragile, that 3 dreadnaughts are ridiculously fragile, or that your list has almost no real capable scoring units that can also fight back.
Your list is so pathetic that I don't know where to begin tearing it apart, sure you have maximized ACs, but that don't mean a thing because they are all on fragile platforms that die to fire from damn near anything, and in 15 points you have put less models on the board than my IG put heavy weapons.

"Platuan4th, cheese is anything that I cannot crush easily. Death Company are not easily crushed, therefore death company are cheese."

Wow then. Never ever go to a tournament, or somewhere where people build good lists. You will find that by your definition they are all cheesy.


Also, this army is one of the most boring lists I have seen in a long time. Try taking some marine squads or an enemy with decent anti-tank will wipe the floor with you.

Platuan4th, please refrain from the personal attacks. They are not constructive.

DarkHellion, I dont have many models, but then again, your imperial guard heavy weapons teams cant say they have an armour value, can they?

1 turn of shooting is literally all it takes. Get into a good position, hit em with assault cannons, and win the game.

Skimmers dont die as easy as you are making out. Strength 3 and less cant damage em, even mighty railguns can only get glancing hits, they can use their great speed to hide behind cover, and they dish out some real firepower. Devastators and predators will be the first targtes, you wont even get to shoto with them.

What would you say would be better? Keep in mind this is an Ultramarines list, so no traits allowed.

Ph34r, space marine squads are the worse thing in the entire space marine codex.

I have played tornament armies. They are not all cheese. I dotn find the seer council and the 6 Carnifex list so bad. The things I have on my "cheese list" so far, are...

Death Company.
Obliterators.
Defilers.
Khorne Beserkers.
Falcons with Spirit Stones, Holofields and Crystal Targeting Matrixes.
Leman Russes.

Wow, I've not heard the Leman Russ is cheese one before. Something new every day.

In a tournament setting I envision you'll have problems with:

-Drop pod marines
-Drop troop guard
-Fish o Fury tau
-A heavy infiltrating chaos or guard force. They can redeploy in "infiltration phase" to put your speeders into their gunsights.
-mechanized Eldar

I could see KOS giving you fits if they got close fast but thats pure theory. To hit them you have to expose the speeders and they can hit back.

Any of these that go first or position properly can nuetralize your firepower advantage.

-I would second the pod argument for the dreads and a weapon of some sort for the commander. Use the dreads to appear, shoot up the place, then tie down enemy units or cut of a seciton fo the field while your speeders maneuver.

@DarkHellion: I wouldn't say he has maximized assault cannon. He turned down 3 assault cannon slots going dreads not termies, plus there're two HQ slots he could have crammed them in. Max AC is 2000 point Lysander Wing.

My guess is battle cannons give you trouble due to the template scattering into other speeders in the squadron, but still on paper it looks a little surprising. Do you leave them bunched up occasionally? I'd hazard a guess that with a bit more practice you should be able to get around them.

For 10 points each you can give your Dreadnoughts missile launchers - considering the long slog to combat without a pod, the ability to shoot a bit on the way in - shooting that is good against decent armour and FNP - could be helpful.

It's not surprising strong melee units with Feel No Pain give you trouble since you have no weapons that will cancel the FNP save, as well as no counterattack. IMHO, you can probably do without the Whirlwinds in favour of a Vindicator. The Vindi is a threat to almost everything on your "broken" list. I notice you can crush ordinary infantry pretty well - so why not go for the S10 template if the stuff the S6/S5 template is good against is something your list can handle all ready? Another trick to help deal with melee is to take a cheap Heavy Support choice as "push back." Were I you I would seriously consider cacking the Whirlwinds (170) and three speeders (240) to run 5 Devastators (75) and 2 Vindicators with PotMS(290) as Heavy Support, plus missile launchers on the dreadnoughts (30) plus say two bolters of the storm and heavy varieties for your infantry to fill up the last ten points. This reduces the overall firepower of your force, but gives you more weapons better suited to dealing with what you consider the greater threats to your list.

If you are at a tourney, usually (at least every one I've been to) deep strike is allowed... Want to go cheese with your list,

3 squads of 3 speeders assault cannon/hb: Idea, drop, shoot up whatever is in front of you and be grateful if you live 2 or 3 turns with each squad. So that is 9 HBs and Assault Cans so far so that is 9 HB 12 ASLT CAN shots a squad, no picture those 21 shots x 3 so that gives you 27 HB / 36 aslt can shots.... You can takedown a lot...

Next HQ Lib in term arm fear/fury 4 termis 2 asslt cans, no pods needed if every mission allows ds right, if you want to add it, throw in the 30 point pod... What more do I have to say about this?

Troops.... 3 mminmax either las/plas or the vow that lets you take 2x meltas/plasmas Like 6 men, 8 if you have points. Pod them if you want to keep up with the speeders/hq

That should be around 1500, if you need more dreads with asslt cannons and ccw in pods don't waste points.

Seriously, if I played you I'd get annoyed that you use a list of such cheese, but at the same time I must think that if I were going to a tourney, I'd bring a list to combat marine cheese, maybe my own marine cheese or necrons, or eldar tooled to kill marines....

Long story short yeah, now that is a friggin cheese army haha.

~Blank

Wow.. i've seen attempts at cheese fail but this one is just pathetic. And you built this to play vs blood angels? HAHA

You seriously need to rethink how to counter assault armies. 9 assault cannons on speeders sounds great on paper until a single assault cannon pops your entire unit.

Well 1st, I'm not the original poster so no I did not build this to play vs. BA.
2nd, If you deep strike the speeders you get 21 shots a squad, so the idea is to kill their assault cannons with your shots first, and the return fire is the risk you take, thik of it like this deep strike dread, who will get knocked around by aslt cans or ds an entire squad of aslt cans of my own to blow whatever is in front of you up.
3rd you are a fool to criticize a list you never seen played, btw I only have 1 loss with the army and that is vs necrons with 2 monis 30 or so immortals 30 warriors and a lord with orb 75% chance of each guy getting back up, that's hard to beat.

In conclusion, Wow you are the pathetic one and obviously aren't skilled enough to operate a cheese list if you think this is bad.

S0d off

~Blank

Jfrazell, I have never played Drop Pod Marines, so can't comment on their abilties, though on paper they look good. I have played the guard drop troops list, and I tell you now it sucks. I have played against it many times, plasma guns and melta guns maxed out to the nines...until to realise you cant get too close for fear of scattering into the enemy, and cant get too far away for fear of not been able to rapid fire with the plasma guns. After your inital barrage of glory, where half your plasma wielding dudes blow up, all it takes is 3 or 4 marines with bolters to ruin a squads day. My enemy couldn't rely on the melta guns taking out tanks, because guardsmen only hit half the time.

I have played Tau, though im not sure whther it would qualify as fish of fury. 2 Devilfish squads and then mostly battlesuits, with a couple of hammerheads.

The deep striking marines I think would give me problems. But surely fish of fury would be easy to beat. Pop the transports with assault cannons, and then you hit the fire warriors on 3s, killing them on 2s. Not to mention they will be entangled.

Played Chaos, though again, not sure whether they qualify as an infiltrating force. He had some devastators that could deploy in infiltration, but not much else. Mostly, the Chaos armies I play feature Khorne Beserkers..lots and lots of Khorne Beserkers.

Played Eldar, but they were not mechanised in particular. 2 Falcons and a Wraithlord, along with 2 war walkers...nothing else in the way of vehicles.

The reason why the Leman Russ is cheese is the fact that it combines great front armour, a stupidly good range, and Ordanance, all in one tank. Too cheap in pts cost aswell. I can take them down, but they require a fair bit of firepower to take them down front the front, and meanwhile they can take on dreads and land speeders with Ordanance. I dont so much have a problem with them scattering into my speeders (as my speeders can deploy 4 inches apart) its more the fact that they are too cheap for what they do.

Why would I find the pts for 3 pods for the dreads?? A Whirlwind and the loss of the scout squads heavy bolter?

Thing is, ive found my Whirlwinds to be fairly good. With 3, you can cause multiple pinning checks at -1, which often allows you to dictate some of your opponants movement. Not requiring line of sight is huge, and in some games, ive just remained hidden fron Imperial Guard forces, and shot them up with whirlwinds. The Guard player didn't have anything good in combat or in a short ranged firefight, instead preferring lots of heavy weapons, so I just sat behind terrain all game, shelling him. Obviously, this makes for fairly easy victories. Ive done this against Eldar and Tau too, though not so much against marines.

Wight_widow, I did want to give the dreads missile launchers. The idea is mostly to have them as shooty dreads who can tear the enemy up from a distance, as dreads never survive to reach combat. Alas, the points limit hit, so they had to be dropped. Argh, if only there was a way to get rid of the useless troops!!

Now, dropping a whirlwind and the scouts heavy bolter frees up 90pts, which would allow me to take the 3 missile launchers, leaving me with 60pts. This would allow another 60pts to be put into a HQ...librarian (115pts) with fury (3pts) could be a good idea, to replace the commander.

Thing is, im not sure whther that is any better. You gain 3 missile launchers and a fury of the ancients psychic power, but lose an extra non line of sight requiring ordanance barrage.

Alternatively, the 60pts left could be used for 2 missile launchers for the scouts, leaving me with 40pts, but, I would then have 5 missile launchers, which should pose a threat to armour, while the assault cannons mow down infantry. I could then kit out my scouts with sniper rifles, giving each unit 4 sniper rifles and a missile launcher, which potentially causes more pinning checks, is more reliable than an ordanance barrage, and crucially  means I have 5 more missile to chuck at the enemy , meaning MEQ are destroyed that much more easier.

Doubtless this configuration is more destructive, but it is also more likely to be destroyed, because scout squads are hardly going to withstand much fire, given they are the only infantry on the board, and they all require line of sight to shoot. The whirlwind, if protected well, is quite capable of shooting all 6 times throughout the game.

On the other hand, it means my dreads are the shooty dreads I always wanted them to be, and it may make light armoured vehicles think twice before going up against my dreads. It also gives my a 48 inch range missile, which will stop enemies just staying out of my range. It also gives me something to destroy a monolith with, or at least damage it.

But...its one less ordanace barrage shot, and is more likely to die...oh, descisions descisions!

Believe me, if I could have gone termies, I would have. But the points ran out- termies cost more than dreads!

-Funny my drop troops usually did well against marines with multiple demo charges, lascannon sentinels and multiple indirect fire ordnance, and mine wasn't a considered a nasty list.

-Tau fish of fury would be fully vehicled except for suits. I think you're probably pretty balanced there with your won skimmers.

-All infiltrating chaos and IG would be just that, all infilitrating. They can set up after you set up and put your vehicles into a strong counterfire.

If you want to make this list worth taking drop the speeders down to squads of two - just as hard to reduce to non scoring as three, and less problems with leaving stunned ones behind. easier to hide too. One whirlwind is all you need. Against MEQ's they are not that great and can't pop tanks in the rear anymore (unless they face their rear towards you). You have enough other things to deal with non MEQS anyway.

With the points you've saved get 2/3 five/six man marine squads with lascannons (maybe plasma too).

Change your commander to a librarian with fear and fury, stick him with the tacs. Maybe give him a jump pack for countercharging.

Drop the dreadnoughts or switch to TL Las cans, or get them pods. No decent opponent will let them get close enough to be effective. If you drop them, get 2 predators with TL lascannon/Heavy bolter.

You need to focus on increasing the range of your army, because with escalation you'll only be threatening half the board. I could happily stay oyut of range of your dreadnaughts and speeders and then move in to pop them with lascannons. if you get close las/hb will tear up a speeder squad.

you need more strings to your bow. all assault cannon may hump noobs and 12yr olds but in tournament play a decent player will love it when he sees your army list.

J

Someone with a DA shooty list is going to spank this list. The only real worry is the whirlwinds causing pinning, other than that, bolters, two dev squads, and a bunch of lascannons are going to destroy every piece of landspeeder and dreadnaught, probably by turn 3.

Dropping IG will tear your AC speeder squads to pieces.

You neglected to note that your opponent, if he uses the Veterans and Drop Troops doctrine (both of which are popular, espeically when used together), you'l have either 9 BS4 Meltagun shots or 18 BS4 Plasma doubletaps to worry about. That's on top of the DS special weapon squads and suicide PHQ drop squads that can pop in and deliver 3+ or 6+ Melta/Plasma doubletaps (respectively) on any unit with impunity.

If you want some serious pinning ability to work with your Whirlwinds (excellent units, btw, even after the 4th Ed. points hike), give your scouts sniper rifles. 10 sniper rifles in 2 5-mans will pin those units with enough gall to last through the WW barrages, making them easy picking for your AC units and WW's next time around.

I'd drop one of the Tornado squads entirely though, and then make the other two only field a pair each. That many assault cannons is overkill, and no one in their right mind is going to play against that kind of BS, especially with a 2nd or 3rd tier list. If you go against shooty/podding Marines, you're going to get whipped like a red-headed stepchild.

If you fight Drop Troop IG, they'll tear you a new orifice.
(Imagine 3 5-man H. Vets with Plasma. Now imagine them alongside a pair of 3-Plasma Dropping Plasma Special weapon squads. Now imagine the enemy CHQ dropping in with 2 PHQs, packing 12 meltaguns between the three of them. Then watch as the enemy drops in the rest of his troops, or sits back and pummels you with heavy weapons/infiltrates and pops your WWs/ beats the crap out of your indirect fire with his own Basilisks. It wouldn't be pretty.)

Point being, get more regulars. You need some ground troops for all-around survivability. I agree with one of the other Dakkites when they said that it is a bad thing that your army could theoretically be reduced to 10 scouts and a naked commander in 15 shots.

CK