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This was slightly touched upon earlier on but never really gone into in much detail.

The key building strategems state that they may be used by any infantry units, do jump infantry count?

IMO (beware, this is a 'common sense' argument, not for children under 18) They do because for example if you strip the jump packs off of assault marines they become regular infantry, not to mention the fact that the word infantry is in their name...

Ok,  flame away y'all.

Jump infantry are not infantry.

Oh what the hey for the sake of arguement,
Jump infantry are a specific subset of the larger group infantry.

So it begins...

Posted By happypants on 07/14/2006 12:01 PM
This was slightly touched upon earlier on but never really gone into in much detail.

The key building strategems state that they may be used by any infantry units, do jump infantry count?

IMO (beware, this is a 'common sense' argument, not for children under 18) They do because for example if you strip the jump packs off of assault marines they become regular infantry, not to mention the fact that the word infantry is in their name...

Ok,  flame away y'all.

So when you remove the time that makes them jump infantry and they are no longer jump infantry they become infantry, which means they were always infantry? That's a train wreck of logic.

I would like to know what mauleed uses to differentiate between infantry and jump infantry, and wether a model that moves as cavalry is no longer infantry too. 

 

My Guess would be that Mauleed is using the "Unit Type" which is probably what makes most sense.

I would say they do not count at Infantry. 

The COD book doesn't define "Infantry" under the Key Building Strategems on Pg 34, where they apply to a single infantry unit.

This leaves, as you mentioned, the Unit Types in the rulebook, on Pg 87, as the only place that "infantry" is defined.  There, it very clearly states that All Space Marines on Foot = Infantry, and All Space Marines with jump packs = Jump Infantry.

If you strip the jump packs from Assault Marines, they become... tada, Space Marines on Foot, and thus Infantry, as defined by the rules.  

I can see the discussion from a 'common sense' perspective, since assault marines could opt to move 'as infantry' during the game, rather than use their jump packs.  But, for consistency, since the Unit Types are all we have to go by as far as a clear definition of "Infantry", I'd be inclined to stick with that.

 

ok, I am going to try and post this again. I seem to keep getting booted as I type a respense.

I agree with everyone that Infantry and Junp Infantry are two different Unit Types; however, my point is that according to the RAW, Jump Infantry is a subset of Infantry not a completely different animal. So now how do we prove this?

1st lets look at the unit descriptions on p 8-10 of the BGB
Infantry: "Infantry units include all types of foot soldiers, whether humnan or alien."
Jump Infantry: "...combine some of the best elements of both mounted and ordinary infantry"
Calvary: "Beast and calvary have a profile like other infantry but are able to make use of a special faster move when they charge an enemy unit."
Artillery: "Artillery units count as infantry in all respects, but when they are fired at, hits can be scored to the guns or the crew."

2nd in the Unit Type Rules, before describing specific rules for each unit type it states
"As you will have seen in the descriptions of unit types earlier, the armies of the 41st millennium are remarkably diverse and include many specialist unit types. In this section, you will find the rules for each of these unit types. Unless stated in this section, these unit types follow the rules for infantry" (Emphaisis added by me)

so
P1 Infantry is the general Unit type for all non-vehicle models in 40K
P2 The other non-vehicle (Jump infantry, beast and Calvary, Bikes and Jetbikes, Monsturous Creatures, and Artillery) unit types have specifc rules governing them.
C1 All non-vehicle units follow the rules for infantry unless stated in the section on Unit Types in the BGB or specifically stated in a codex.
P4 Codex:COD only states theat infantry units may use the key building Strategem

C2 Jump infantry, beast and Calvary, Bikes and Jetbikes, Monsturous Creatures, and Artillery can use the Key Building Stategem because they are following the rules for infantry.

Interesting, and in just about every Unit Type listing on pages 53-57, it either says:

"...in some respects, they are treated slightly differently from other infantry troops.'  OR

"This unit type behaves differently on the battlefield than a normal infantry unit."

This leaves me to exclude Jump Infantry, Jetbikes, Monstrous Creatures, Bikes and Artillery, even though they all use the same basic 'infantry' mechanics.

Otherwise, why not just say in COD "These strategems may not be used by vehicles.", since that is the only Unit Type you're actually excluding by your interpretation?

Because Games Workshop has writers who don't exress ideas in simple terms. The Eldar's codex explination of who get to fleet is preety dang confusing the first couple of times for example, they could have just noted who could fleet as it would have been shorter and clearer.

Cruentus,
I agree the on the wording in the specific units, and the ways they differ from normal infantry are enumerated in the units type specific rules; however, the over arching theme is that execept where enumerated in those rules they act as normal Infantry. I currently do not have my COD book with me, so I cannot quote from there; however, if the COD does not state that a certain Unit Type cannot use a strategem or there is some other restriction, then the over arching rule on p 53 applies and the specific Unit type acts as infantry.

As to why GW's game designers and editor chose a speciffic wording is beyond the ken of mortal man. But could it be that they only ment to exclude vehicles from using those strategems?

If jump infantry are not infantry what are they?

Don't tell me "jump infantry."

Prove it.

Kilkrazy,
Jump Infantry are a different Unit Type than Infantry in the BGB. Please feel free to look that up. The point of my arguement is not that they are not different unit types but that unless there is a specific restriction placed on them or benifit given them they act like Infantry. I could use a plebian example of this to illiminate your understanding but I figure you are an intellegent person and can figure out yourself.

Posted By happypants on 07/14/2006 12:29 PM
My Guess would be that Mauleed is using the "Unit Type" which is probably what makes most sense.

That would be all and well and I'm sure he would field Rough Riders as Cavalry but would he also have a Demon Prince with Demonic speed be Cavalry since it "moves as cavalry" and not is? Is he just restricting Infantry to not speed enhanced Infantry except for those with Fleet since they don't have a seperate entry?

His response is just personal opinion until he explains it.

Jump Infantry are a subset of Infantry or they would be Jump Troops. (A tracked vehicle is still a vehicle even though it's tracked.)

Jump Infantry are clearly infantry in the same way that Infantry are infantry -- i.e. they aren't cavalry, artillery and so on. (Some monstrous creatures would count as infantry by this standard.)

The question is whether the reference in infantry in the CoD rules means infantry or Infantry.

On balance, I'd restrict the "infantry"-only strategems to units with the unit type "Infantry."

As usual, we must congratulate GW on their ability to write such clear, concise rules.

Posted by Kilkrazy on 07/15/2006 4:25 PM
Jump Infantry are a subset of Infantry or they would be Jump Troops.

Just because they share the word 'infantry' in their name does not automatically make one a subset of the other.

somebody mentioned "common sense". well, they can walk, check. they have a "Person" Profile, check. and if we think of, well humanoid units, I would say that Stormboyz or Assault Marines can use stuff like more ammo or medication as good as normal Infantry. on the other hand, then Krisis suits could do that to, and I have trouble imagining that...

"Just because they share the word 'infantry' in their name does not automatically make one a subset of the other."

True, in game terms Jump Infantry and Infantry are both subsets of the overall set of unit types.

We need to establish if the BBB rules make a clear distinction between Infantry and infantry.

They do, because they're discussed in separate sections of the rulebook. If it were a subset of infantry, it would be how jet packs are listed as a subset of Jump Infantry.

infantry and Infantry are discussed in the Units section, which first distinguishes between infantry and vehicles, then between Infantry, Jump Infantry, Jetbikes and so on. (Note that Artillery are counted as infantry in all respects.) There is a later section describing differences between Infantry and other infantry units, also vehicles.

The CoD strategems refer to infantry in the case of key buildings, and Infantry in the case of Combat Engineers.

Page 53 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook under the heading Unit Type Rules shows that Jump Infantry has it's own specific entry, as do Bikes, Jetbikes, Monstrous Creatures, Artillery and Beasts & Cavalry. Each is it's own specific unit type. Therefore Infantry and Jump Infantry are two distinct and separate unit types that just happen to share some rules in common.

Indeed yes, that's quite right. But the Key Building strategems refer to infantry, not Infantry, whereas the Combat Engineers strategem refers to Infantry. Clearly there is some difference and distinction between the two types.

Either captial or lower case, you have no support for claiming it applies to Jump Infantry or jump infantry.

Let me try to muster an argument.

BBB p.8 says that armies consist of vehicles and infantry, which are described in more detail later.

Unit Type Rules (BBB p.53) decribe various types of units such as Infantry, Jump Infantry and so on. "Unless stated in this section, these unit types will follow the rules for infantry." These rules cover all unit types except for vehicles which are in a separate section.

BBB p.58 says that vehicle rules have to work differently from those for infantry and proceeds to lay out the vehicle rules.

Conclusion: All units are either infantry or vehicles. Non-vehicle units can and must use any rules applicable to infantry unless disallowed by Unit Type Rules or codex specific rules.

CoD p.34, Key Building strategems apply to "a single infantry unit."

Conclusion: Key building strategems apply to any unit except a vehicle. As Jump Infantry are not vehicles they are nfantry, so they can use the key buildings strategems.

Kilkrazy, as this has become somewhat of a semantics argumet, I believe that it has become necessary for any structured argument to include direct quotes instead of summaries.

Anything else becomes easily dismissed as personal interpretation instead of RAW.

Just a suggestion.

P1. "The effects of a key building strategem apply to a single infantry unit ... etc. CoD p.34.

P2. Jump infantry are a unit type described in the Unit Type Rules on p.55.

P3. "Unless stated in this section, these unit types will follow the rules for infantry." (Unit Type Rules, BBB p.53)

P4. There is no conflict between the special rules of Jump Infantry in Unit Type Rules and the CoD Key Building Strategem rules.

C. Jump infantry can use key buildings.

Simply because something FOLLOWS the rules for infantry, does not MAKE it infantry. Isn't your argument some sort of fallacy?

Something along the lines of:

A ferrari is a car with 4 wheels. All cars have 4 wheels, so all cars are ferraris?

(yes, I know there are cars with less than 4 wheels, but for the sake of example lets assume there aren't)

Wouldn't it be a trike or a bike if it had less than 4 wheels?

Wouldn't it be a trike or a bike if it had less than 4 wheels?

Nope. It's still a car.



The 1951 Daihatsu Bee.

It's not a fallacy. My argument is not that Jump infantry are infantry. It is that they run by the same rules in terms of key buildings.